Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

Seth Brundle

First Up wrote: »

But the trial has to check what matters, not just count bicycles. The current plan will impact a lot of things over a wide area. The boardwalk doesn't need trialing because like Clontarf, it doesn't impact on the roads.

A boardwalk would need to have its potential impact assessed via an EIA. Clontarf is a completely different layout and isn;t an equal comparison.
As for a boardwalk not impacting the roads, this possibly isn't quite true. Assuming more people use it then access points for the boardwalk would require slight adjustments to the road. You also then have a large conflict point at the level crossing.

tomasrojo

First Up wrote: »

The boardwalk doesn't need trialing because like Clontarf, it doesn't impact on the roads.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think the boardwalk will be made of, what is the underlying substrate, and how will it be made stable?

First Up

Seth Brundle wrote:

However, I'd refrain from using this kind of terminology if you plan on using the abuse card...

Thanks for the advice Seth.

Seaswimmer

First Up wrote: »

But the trial has to check what matters, not just count bicycles. The current plan will impact a lot of things over a wide area. The boardwalk doesn't need trialing because like Clontarf, it doesn't impact on the roads.

Blackrock to Sandycove is in the outer suburbs with little affect on commercial activity or traffic volume. Strand Rd is much more complicated.

Not quite. Dun Laoire is a major commercial centre. The road from Sandycove to Blackrock is the N31 from Dun Laoire onwards (R831 from Sandycove to Dun Laoire) Anyone living in the area can tell you how busy that coastal route is. In fact it was a major commuting route pre Covid to bring people to the Frascati Road/Rock Road and into town. And it still serves this purpose except that unlike Strand Road the direction is reversed so motorists take a detour on the way out from town as opposed to into town.
You should really try and look at the historical debates on the Blackrock> Sandycove cycle lane. All the same arguments that you are using were used. Traffic will divert to side roads, motorists will rat run through estates, people won't be able to get to Blackrock/Dun Laoire/Monkstown, journey times will increase, trucks will be going through the villages.
None of this has happened. The local villages are thriving (Covid not withstanding). Families, elderly and people who would never normally cycle are out and about using the new facilities and spending money in their local area.

breezy1985

Why not build the cycle now on the existing road and then we can start ripping up the promenade for another general road lane after

BabysCoffee

Monday's episode of Nationwide certainly made the case for an immediate cycleway in Sandyford


https://www.rte.ie/player/series/nationwide/SI0000001172?epguid=IH000400570

CramCycle

First Up wrote: »

And anyway won't loads of those evil cars just evaporate as they are supposed to?

Have you not googled this yet or do you not know how too?

First Up wrote: »

Its not that they are in favour of it. Its just that they either haven't thought about it, or don't care either way.

Locals, as a former one and as some posters here have pointed out, they are regular users of the area, they have thought it through. It is frustrating that you keep talking about Heavy Commercial traffic going through the village, without realising, that isn't where that traffic would logically go, but when this was pointed out you said heavy amounts of smaller commercial traffic, then it was SUVs, then it was locals who apparently visit the port on a daily basis. I think at one point there was talk of 8 wheelers gaining speed, taking a hard turn without losing momentum and barrelling through Sandymount Green. Dear Lord, you couldn't drive through Sandymount when its empty at speed, let alone at commuter times. Most locals will hop on the DART for anything near town at commuter times, some I know simply walk it, as its far quicker.

I'll say it once more, to see do you get it, a one way system, forget the bike lane, is a really good idea for the area. A 6 month trial was an even better idea as unlike you apparently, most can accept that it might not work out the way people who have done some research into it might expect.

I wouldn't like them to have made it permanent right off the bat. Often, and if you read up on it you will see, traffic evaporation can take a small bit of time to occur, rarely 6 months, normally just a few weeks, and then you can assess if other changes need to be made. I think Labrer34 made some good points about the Ped crossing at Merrion Road, and it would be needed to see what adjustments to traffic signals and flow might be needed elsewhere or if it is a bad idea, maybe the 5 axle ban alone would be a good start. Even simpler, make the East Link for those at the depot/industry area only just across the bridge only in the northern direction.

First Up

CramCycle wrote:

Locals, as a former one and as some posters here have pointed out, they are regular users of the area, they have thought it through. It is frustrating that you keep talking about Heavy Commercial traffic going through the village, without realising, that isn't where that traffic would logically go, but when this was pointed out you said heavy amounts of smaller commercial traffic, then it was SUVs, then it was locals who apparently visit the port on a daily basis. I think at one point there was talk of 8 wheelers gaining speed, taking a hard turn without losing momentum and barrelling through Sandymount Green. Dear Lord, you couldn't drive through Sandymount when its empty at speed, let alone at commuter times. Most locals will hop on the DART for anything near town at commuter times, some I know simply walk it, as its far quicker.

If you are going to criticise posts, please have the courtesy to check who posted them. I never said anything about 8 wheelers barreling anywhere.

The traffic that will be prevented using Strand Rd is the traffic you see on it today. I have driven, walked and run on it for quite a few years so I have a good idea the sort of vehicles that will be displaced. That includes private cars, delivery vans, oil tankers and tradesmen. Not all are heavy but some are and they are numerous. I don't know what routes they will use but more importantly neither does DCC and judging from Keegan's comments, they don't care. That is simply unacceptable.

Dublin port is a major storage and distribution centre, not just a harbour. Vehicles of various sizes collect and deliver goods there every day and a large number go via the East Link. I have asked several posters what route they should take to get there instead of Strand Rd and I have yet to get an answer.

I know this is a cycling forum, populated by cyclists but if some of you took off your helmets and goggles for a minute, you might see more than the road in front of you.

Larbre34

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Not quite. Dun Laoire is a major commercial centre. The road from Sandycove to Blackrock is the N31 from Dun Laoire onwards (R831 from Sandycove to Dun Laoire) Anyone living in the area can tell you how busy that coastal route is. In fact it was a major commuting route pre Covid to bring people to the Frascati Road/Rock Road and into town. And it still serves this purpose except that unlike Strand Road the direction is reversed so motorists take a detour on the way out from town as opposed to into town.
You should really try and look at the historical debates on the Blackrock> Sandycove cycle lane. All the same arguments that you are using were used. Traffic will divert to side roads, motorists will rat run through estates, people won't be able to get to Blackrock/Dun Laoire/Monkstown, journey times will increase, trucks will be going through the villages.
None of this has happened. The local villages are thriving (Covid not withstanding). Families, elderly and people who would never normally cycle are out and about using the new facilities and spending money in their local area.

Still plenty of griping in Monkstown about congestion as a result. Will be very interesting to see how that plays out when traffic levels return to normal, or should I say a new normal. But the return to full capacity of schools will be significant enough as there are a few sizeable ones in that locale.

Seaswimmer

Larbre34 wrote: »

Still plenty of griping in Monkstown about congestion as a result. Will be very interesting to see how that plays out when traffic levels return to normal, or should I say a new normal. But the return to full capacity of schools will be significant enough as there are a few sizeable ones in that locale.

But griping is all it is.. The agenda from the initial objectors now seems to be
"Well its ok now but wait until X,Y or Z happens" I know you post regularly on the DL forum (as I do) but you have to admit that despite a few minor issues initially that the scheme has been a success overall..

CramCycle

First Up wrote: »

If you are going to criticise posts, please have the courtesy to check who posted them. I never said anything about 8 wheelers barreling anywhere.

Two things, you did say the rest of it, I had checked in case I was mistaken. The 8 wheeler was in a similar vein but I did not attribute it to you, just pointing out the hysteria some people use, apologies if it sounded like I was, I was attributing all the other hysteria and goal post moving to you though.

The traffic that will be prevented using Strand Rd is the traffic you see on it today. I have driven, walked and run on it for quite a few years so I have a good idea the sort of vehicles that will be displaced. That includes private cars, delivery vans, oil tankers and tradesmen. Not all are heavy but some are and they are numerous. I don't know what routes they will use but more importantly neither does DCC and judging from Keegan's comments, they don't care. That is simply unacceptable.

And yet again, you refuse to do any research, that's not the way traffic works. Your resolute refusal to either look up or listen to others is astounding. Vehicles that have to use that route, will continue to use it, they still can, but many who use it will switch to other modes of transport or other routes, between the two, over time traffic as a whole will reduce. This said, as I pointed out, unlike yourself, I can accept it might not, hence the reason why a 6 month trial is a good idea, I really can't see how you would be against it. If it doesn't work, it goes back or to something else that works better based on knowledge gained.

Dublin port is a major storage and distribution centre, not just a harbour. Vehicles of various sizes collect and deliver goods there every day and a large number go via the East Link. I have asked several posters what route they should take to get there instead of Strand Rd and I have yet to get an answer.

You, repeatedly, refuse to accept that those vehicles are unlikely to all be going to Sandymount or Blackrock and that most will change their route to a more appropriate route. Then again, you also gave the impression that it didn't carry much traffic like that at all, hard to remember which order you changed your mind in. Going past South Dublin southerly, use the port tunnel and the M50, going North or West, the same.

I know this is a cycling forum, populated by cyclists but if some of you took off your helmets and goggles for a minute, you might see more than the road in front of you.

As someone who drives quite frequently, while the east link would on occasion would have been a direct route for me, I often wouldn't take it at commuting times as the traffic is brutal and you are at the whim of one person not having change at the toll for a 20 minute tailback to become a 40 minute one in a few seconds. It is often just as quick to go into town and across and is typically more predictable. I have used it at night to visit relations in care homes and the traffic was dead but would I be put out about the extra 5 minutes to cross at the Sam Beckett bridge, not at all. This discussion has actually little to do with Cycling and should have went into the C&T forum as its more suited there as the cycle route itself isn't the most important thing about the plan, albeit a nice addition, a single lane contra flow would have been fine for many.

What have you against the 6 month trial other than fear it might show it in a positive light?

CramCycle

Seaswimmer wrote: »

But griping is all it is.. The agenda from the initial objectors now seems to be
"Well its ok now but wait until X,Y or Z happens" I know you post regularly on the DL forum (as I do) but you have to admit that despite a few minor issues initially that the scheme has been a success overall..

I've actually went that way for the first time in years, my only complaint is the place is heaving with pedestrians and cyclists. I mean jammers, in all my years in Dublin, only the centre of Dublin city has as many pedestrians using it. You know what else, very few cars. It is the oddest thing, how did they all get there? I'd say local small businesses have to be over the moon with the changes, maybe I am wrong.

Seaswimmer

CramCycle wrote: »

I've actually went that way for the first time in years, my only complaint is the place is heaving with pedestrians and cyclists. I mean jammers, in all my years in Dublin, only the centre of Dublin city has as many pedestrians using it. You know what else, very few cars. It is the oddest thing, how did they all get there? I'd say local small businesses have to be over the moon with the changes, maybe I am wrong.

No. I think you are correct. Some of the old issues are still there however. For example the seafront and Peoples Park area of Dun Laoire is doing really well but the Main Street is struggling. The villages of Dalkey, Glasthule, Monkstown and Blackrock all seem to be busy with lots of footfall. Dundrum also although I am not terribly familiar with that scheme. DLR council despite all the criticism has done pretty well during Covid in prioritising walking and cycling. Lots of cycle lanes have been widened, markings have been improved and village schemes to calm traffic have been introduced. Picnic tables, seating and planters have been installed in a lot of areas and are used constantly, despite the old fears we all have of Irish weather.
Sandymount village could have all of this and more with a bit of forward thinking and a leap of faith.

ted1

Larbre34 wrote: »

Still plenty of griping in Monkstown about congestion as a result. Will be very interesting to see how that plays out when traffic levels return to normal, or should I say a new normal. But the return to full capacity of schools will be significant enough as there are a few sizeable ones in that locale.

My kids go to one of them, there’s a huge increase in the amount arriving by bike and scooter. The CMR is playing a blinder. And that’s just from a primary school. The residents are much happier with the reduction in drop offs.

Zaney

Seaswimmer wrote: »

But griping is all it is.. The agenda from the initial objectors now seems to be
"Well its ok now but wait until X,Y or Z happens" I know you post regularly on the DL forum (as I do) but you have to admit that despite a few minor issues initially that the scheme has been a success overall..

I’m very very local and it is more than griping in my daily experience. The traffic on the alternative routes can be really awful. If you cycle in any other direction other than the coast road, motorists are obviously frustrated and give you little room. I have stopped cycling with my kids on other roads because of increased traffic volumes and driver aggression (now they are very young, so it honestly wouldn’t take much). So it limits our cycling options, but the ones we have are really really brilliant. Ups and downs is my personal view.

Now don’t get me wrong, there are also huge advantages. Coast road is so quiet and pleasant to walk/cycle. On dry days the crowds flock which has obvious benefits for business.

But some people are suffering, which could’ve been mitigated with some wider traffic management in my opinion. Local rat runs which I use myself are definitely busier. It is not all happy faces or nimbyism.

Seaswimmer

Zaney wrote: »

I’m very very local and it is more than griping in my daily experience. The traffic on the alternative routes can be really awful. If you cycle in any other direction other than the coast road, motorists are obviously frustrated and give you little room. I have stopped cycling with my kids on other roads because of increased traffic volumes and driver aggression (now they are very young, so it honestly wouldn’t take much). So it limits our cycling options, but the ones we have are really really brilliant. Ups and downs is my personal view.

Now don’t get me wrong, there are also huge advantages. Coast road is so quiet and pleasant to walk/cycle. On dry days the crowds flock which has obvious benefits for business.

But some people are suffering, which could’ve been mitigated with some wider traffic management in my opinion. Local rat runs which I use myself are definitely busier. It is not all happy faces or nimbyism.

I agree but there are further plans (of which you are no doubt aware) to expand the cycling infrastructure with 3 new routes. For example if the routes come to fruition I could in theory cycle from Deansgrange to Blackrock, Monkstown Dun Laoghaire and Killiney (and points between) on completely segregated or safe routes. Not an issue for me either way to cycle on the road but for people like yourself with young children I think over time you will nearly be able to get everywhere you want on segregated or safe cycling infrastructure..

Zaney

Seaswimmer wrote: »

I agree but there are further plans (of which you are no doubt aware) to expand the cycling infrastructure with 3 new routes. For example if the routes come to fruition I could in theory cycle from Deansgrange to Blackrock, Monkstown Dun Laoghaire and Killiney (and points between) on completely segregated or safe routes. Not an issue for me either way to cycle on the road but for people like yourself with young children I think over time you will nearly be able to get everywhere you want on segregated or safe cycling infrastructure..

I can’t see Deansgrange happening now they have been forced to look at the traffic impacts in advance. Maybe on one of the alternative routes they are looking at.

Larbre34

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Sandymount village could have all of this and more with a bit of forward thinking and a leap of faith.

They could and they should. And honestly its what the locals want.

But its entirely incompatible with closing off one direction of the nearest Regional route to avoid the village.

DLR shut down one lane of both Blackrock and Dundrum villages, because both had specific bypass routes. Strand Road is that bypass route for Sandymount.

The solution for Sandymount, is a single lane village with increased public realm work and a complementary cycle lane on the Promenade of Sandymount strand. What DCC have tried to railroad through satisfies neither of those desires and goes against common sense and an achieveable win-win.

Fighting Tao

Larbre34 wrote: »

They could and they should. And honestly its what the locals want.

But its entirely incompatible with closing off one direction of the nearest Regional route to avoid the village.

DLR shut down one lane of both Blackrock and Dundrum villages, because both had specific bypass routes. Strand Road is that bypass route for Sandymount.

The solution for Sandymount, is a single lane village with increased public realm work and a complementary cycle lane on the Promenade of Sandymount strand. What DCC have tried to railroad through satisfies neither of those desires and goes against common sense and an achieveable win-win.

You are ignoring the other road that bypasses Sandymount...Merrion Road.

buffalo

Larbre34 wrote: »

They could and they should. And honestly its what the locals want.

...

The solution for Sandymount, is a single lane village with increased public realm work and a complementary cycle lane on the Promenade of Sandymount strand. What DCC have tried to railroad through satisfies neither of those desires and goes against common sense and an achieveable win-win.

I haven't seen anything showing that any of the local groups are campaigning for the above. All I've seen is a rejection of any changes. Could you show where the locals are asking for this?

Larbre34

Fighting Tao wrote: »

You are ignoring the other road that bypasses Sandymount...Merrion Road.

I am. Very specifically. Merrion Road isn't a route across the river. Not without going through town. It's not realistically a solution to any of the consequences of the City Council's proposals.

Fighting Tao

Larbre34 wrote: »

I am. Very specifically. Merrion Road isn't a route across the river. Not without going through town. It's not realistically a solution to any of the consequences of the City Council's proposals.

From a lot of experience driving from south of Sandymount, it usually quicker to use Merrion Road and cross the river at Samuel Beckett bridge at rush hour than it is to use the East Link. I gave up on the east link after 3.30pm due to the likelihood of taking 1-1.5 hours to get from meririon gate to the 3Arena. More often than not I abandoning the car in Ringsend and came back for the car later in the evening.

First Up

CramCycle wrote:

Two things, you did say the rest of it, I had checked in case I was mistaken. The 8 wheeler was in a similar vein but I did not attribute it to you, just pointing out the hysteria some people use, apologies if it sounded like I was, I was attributing all the other hysteria and goal post moving to you though.

Apology accepted but describing anything I have said as hysteria reminds me of the "project fear" tripe from Brexiteers when warned of consequences and we know how that is going for them.

CramCycle wrote:

And yet again, you refuse to do any research, that's not the way traffic works. Your resolute refusal to either look up or listen to others is astounding. Vehicles that have to use that route, will continue to use it, they still can, but many who use it will switch to other modes of transport or other routes, between the two, over time traffic as a whole will reduce. This said, as I pointed out, unlike yourself, I can accept it might not, hence the reason why a 6 month trial is a good idea, I really can't see how you would be against it. If it doesn't work, it goes back or to something else that works better based on knowledge gained.

The plan is to close Strand Rd to all northbound vehicles. What other modes of transport should replace the lorries and vans carrying goods and equipment?

CramCycle wrote:

You, repeatedly, refuse to accept that those vehicles are unlikely to all be going to Sandymount or Blackrock and that most will change their route to a more appropriate route. Then again, you also gave the impression that it didn't carry much traffic like that at all, hard to remember which order you changed your mind in. Going past South Dublin southerly, use the port tunnel and the M50, going North or West, the same.

I'm still waiting on the "more appropriate " route to the East Link. Has DCC estimated how many vehicles, what routes they might use and impact it will make? Have they contingency plans if there are snarl ups? That's called planning but no evidence of it from DCC.

CramCycle wrote:

As someone who drives quite frequently, while the east link would on occasion would have been a direct route for me, I often wouldn't take it at commuting times as the traffic is brutal and you are at the whim of one person not having change at the toll for a 20 minute tailback to become a 40 minute one in a few seconds. It is often just as quick to go into town and across and is typically more predictable. I have used it at night to visit relations in care homes and the traffic was dead but would I be put out about the extra 5 minutes to cross at the Sam Beckett bridge, not at all. This discussion has actually little to do with Cycling and should have went into the C&T forum as its more suited there as the cycle route itself isn't the most important thing about the plan, albeit a nice addition, a single lane contra flow would have been fine for many.

Get a Tag and use the fast lane. It works better than hoping the traffic will go away, which seems to be a big part of the plans for Strand Rd too.

This discussion has to do with cycling because the S2S path is the cause of it. But I agree there might be more realistic discussion elsewhere. Almost anything else would be.

Effects

tomasrojo wrote: »

All this saves me about ten thousand euro a year, so switching to a car (or a bus or home delivery) wouldn't make a lot of sense.

Ah here, €10,000 saving a year? I'm not buying that one.

tomasrojo

Effects wrote: »

Ah here, €10,000 saving a year? I'm not buying that one.

It's probably on the high side. That's what's supposed to be the average cost of running a car in Ireland. I spend a few hundred on car trips a year, maximum, and a very small amount on public transport. It certainly saves me thousands a year compared to someone who drives the same trips.

Effects

Fighting Tao wrote: »

From a lot of experience driving from south of Sandymount, it usually quicker to use Merrion Road and cross the river at Samuel Beckett bridge at rush hour than it is to use the East Link.

I found both to take about the same length of time. But I resented having to pay the East Link toll when it wasn't any quicker.
Beckett bridge is horrible from about 12pm onwards, pre covid. And I always found it faster to just continue and cross at Butt bridge instead.

Peregrine

Effects wrote: »

Ah here, €10,000 saving a year? I'm not buying that one.

It's the average annual cost of owning and operating a family car in Ireland according to the AA. Not everybody is going to spend that much but it does seem to be the mean when you add everything up.

The AA’s annual survey of motoring costs found that running a family car for a year is €10,593.26, down by €98.11 compared to the previous year.

https://www.thejournal.ie/cost-of-motoring-4724918-Jul2019/

Effects

tomasrojo wrote: »

It's probably on the high side. That's what's supposed to be the average cost of running a car in Ireland. I spend a few hundred on car trips a year, maximum, and a very small amount on public transport. It certainly saves me thousands a year compared to someone who drives the same trips.

It just seemed a little high to me. But then I also cycle as much as I can myself anyway. But that doesn't change insurance/tax costs, just fuel.

Fighting Tao

Effects wrote: »

I found both to take about the same length of time. But I resented having to pay the East Link toll when it wasn't any quicker.
Beckett bridge is horrible from about 12pm onwards, pre covid. And I always found it faster to just continue and cross at Butt bridge instead.

You can sometimes save 10-15 minutes by turning off the regional road R813 Macken street and use Misery Hill and come back down Sir John Rogersons Quay

Fighting Tao

Effects wrote: »

I found both to take about the same length of time. But I resented having to pay the East Link toll when it wasn't any quicker.
Beckett bridge is horrible from about 12pm onwards, pre covid. And I always found it faster to just continue and cross at Butt bridge instead.

You can sometimes save 10-15 minutes by turning off the regional road R813 Macken street and use Misery Hill and come back down Sir John Rogersons Quay

I work with someone from Finglas that would use Butt bridge. For where I was going, it would have meant more doubling back in myself.