Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

tomasrojo

tomasrojo wrote: »

It's probably on the high side. That's what's supposed to be the average cost of running a car in Ireland. I spend a few hundred on car trips a year, maximum, and a very small amount on public transport. It certainly saves me thousands a year compared to someone who drives the same trips.

You're not far off

I sold my car last Oct as I ended up perm WFH

I was spending 7,200 a year between car loan, upkeep, tax, insurance, etc on a Hyundai i30

Someone with a bigger engine would pay more tax, higher car payments on a better car and there are def many out there with a longer commute than I had at 25km each way so fuel costs could be way more and lastly factoring in additional upkeep due to longer commutes too.

10,000 eur a year on a car is not that far of a stretch from what I was paying

Its one of the reason I got rid of mine. Until I ended up WFH, I never looked too closely at the costs and only paid heed to the loan payment. It wasn't until I sat down and looked at a years worth of receipts and bank statements that I realised how much it was actually costing me.

On a side note, I signed up for GoCar, Leap card and Share Bikes since dumping the car. Only had to use GoCar 3 times since last Oct and spent 180 eur in total. Use buses and trains now for longer journeys and the bike share for the city stuff.

tomasrojo

Effects wrote: »

It just seemed a little high to me. But then I also cycle as much as I can myself anyway. But that doesn't change insurance/tax costs, just fuel.

Yeah, might be a little high. I was also basing it somewhat on how much I was able to save a year when I was saving to buy a house, but I don't want to go into details about my finances!

It's probably a little high, but it's not wildly off.

Larbre34

Peregrine wrote: »

It's the average annual cost of owning and operating a family car in Ireland according to the AA. Not everybody is going to spend that much but it does seem to be the mean when you add everything up.

https://www.thejournal.ie/cost-of-motoring-4724918-Jul2019/

The median would be more accurate.

I only ever pay cash for used cars every few years, but to get to €10k, you'd have to be paying a high car loan or PCP, a high insurance premium, high road tax and maintenance costs and be burning through 100 quid a week in fuel. I'd be shocked if thats the norm rather than the exception.

Effects

Fighting Tao wrote: »

You can sometimes save 10-15 minutes by turning off the regional road R813 Macken street and use Misery Hill and come back down Sir John Rogersons Quay

Yeah, I've done that a bunch of times, but still found that a bit congested trying to join back up. Haven't they changed the layout somewhat now with the new building there, the Sorting Office?

tomasrojo

Larbre34 wrote: »

The median would be more accurate.

I only ever pay cash for used cars every few years, but to get to €10k, you'd have to be paying a high car loan or PCP, a high insurance premium, high road tax and maintenance costs and be burning through 100 quid a week in fuel. I'd be shocked if thats the norm rather than the exception.

Based on what you're saying, the mean would be higher than the median?

Effects

tomasrojo wrote: »

It's probably a little high, but it's not wildly off.

I guess I don't keep track of total fuel costs. And I have a reliable car, but not brand new, and not paying a loan on it.

I'm a beekeeper, and I also travel to the West a lot, so not having a car doesn't suit me.
But I'm also looking at a cargo bike at the moment, for the journeys that I can't do on my regular bike, but that wouldn't necessitate a car either, if I had the cargo option.

But probably better to get back on topic here!

tomasrojo

Effects wrote: »

But probably better to get back on topic here!

This was more enjoyable though.

tomasrojo

I do recommend the cargo bike, by the way. Or at least a large trailer. Game changers.

Peregrine

tomasrojo wrote: »

I do recommend the cargo bike, by the way. Or at least a large trailer. Game changers.

Yeah but you can't go to the Port Tunnel on that. I live in Sandymount and I go to see the Port Tunnel every day. Checkmate.

Seaswimmer

Zaney wrote: »

I can’t see Deansgrange happening now they have been forced to look at the traffic impacts in advance. Maybe on one of the alternative routes they are looking at.

The councils update before Christmas was that they were looking at alternate routes but that the Deansgrange route was still on the table along with the others. Looking at the alternatives dosent mean the original plan is dead..

Edit.. I hadn't come across this one before. A quiet way through the cemetery!!

https://www.dlrcoco.ie/sites/default/files/atoms/files/walking_cycling_permeability_through_deansgrange_cemetery_0.pdf

magicbastarder

i found those AA estimates to be wildly off what it costs me. their lowest and highest insurance costs claimed are €930 and €1800; my insurance is half their minimum.
and their 'garage/parking/misc. expenses' are estimated to be €4,099.29, regardless of what car you drive. and that doesn't seem to take maintenance into account, that's calculated per km driven.
and there's no explanation of how the €4,100 is calculated. which is nearly €100 a week.

tomasrojo

Yeah, I can't put a very precise figure on it, and I was basing it on a combination of the surprising amount I was able to save per year and the AA estimate, but it's hard to disentangle my multiple cheese-paring strategies. But my annual travel costs were a few hundred. There also would have been opportunity costs to running car for those saving years, as I was able to use the cash saved to buy a house at the bottom of the crash when banks weren't lending money, so if you factor in the appreciation during the recovery, I actually earned tens of thousands for those years I was saving that money, but I fully admit that those were very unusual circumstances.

Also, I'm not going to sell the house, so it's largely a hypothetical "earning".

tomasrojo

The maintenance per km driven is a good way to calculate things like that, but it has to be over quite a few years to include the occasional very large repair bill. The maintenance per year over the first year is very different from the maintenance per year over ten years. Though not with GoCar.

CramCycle

First Up wrote: »

Apology accepted but describing anything I have said as hysteria reminds me of the "project fear" tripe from Brexiteers when warned of consequences and we know how that is going for them.

If they suggested trialling Brexit and that there was actual research that showed it might be a net positive then yes, but in reality no. If you can't discuss the points, I am out. When someone keeps changing the goalposts or the issues when its shown nothing backs them up, then I call it hysteria as its fear mongering without justification. Run the trial and see does it work, simples.

The plan is to close Strand Rd to all northbound vehicles. What other modes of transport should replace the lorries and vans carrying goods and equipment?

Again hysteria, there are several other routes for people who have to get to the front of the Point Depot and realistically, few will be going to just there. It's like you are being wilfully ignorant of the real world.

I'm still waiting on the "more appropriate " route to the East Link. Has DCC estimated how many vehicles, what routes they might use and impact it will make? Have they contingency plans if there are snarl ups? That's called planning but no evidence of it from DCC.

The East Link bridge, no one is trying to go to the bridge, you fail to accept that no one is trying to stop at the far side of the bridge, they are going somewhere, most of these will be easily achievable by alternative routes. Most of the time you would make the port tunnel just as quickly driving up Merrion Road and crossing the Sam Beckett pre covid.

Get a Tag and use the fast lane. It works better than hoping the traffic will go away, which seems to be a big part of the plans for Strand Rd too.

Takes awhile to get to the toll itself if anything fowls up, really am not convinced you have been to the area at all at this point.

This discussion has to do with cycling because the S2S path is the cause of it. But I agree there might be more realistic discussion elsewhere. Almost anything else would be.

A realistic discussion, as all of this, even those who have done a bit of research, is all just postulating. Run the trial, see if it works, if it doesn't it can be returned to the status quo quite quickly or are you really saying a trial to see if it works is a bad idea? Best case scenario you are wrong, worst case I am wrong, at least there would be concrete data to support it or oppose it rather than postulating without a notion.
Either way, I am leaving it there, invoking Brexit or Trump to me is the equivalent of Godwinning a thread and just reeks of desperation not to engage in reasoned discussion. All the best

Effects

tomasrojo wrote: »

I do recommend the cargo bike, by the way. Or at least a large trailer. Game changers.

I have an Ikea trailer, and while I like it, I don't use it enough.
I'd prefer to have a dedicated cargo bike, and it would be mainly used for work.

tomasrojo

Effects wrote: »

I have an Ikea trailer, and while I like it, I don't use it enough.
I'd prefer to have a dedicated cargo bike, and it would be mainly used for work.

I have a bakfiets cargo bike, a Chariot trailer and a Bike-hod trailer. They're good at different things. The bakfiets is the most versatile -- certainly the only one that can carry people larger than very small children! -- and the trailers the less tiring over long distances. If you're carrying anything that approximates to flat-pack furniture from IKEA, the Chariot trailer is the best for carrying loads that are much longer than wide.

Effects

I'm kind of set on getting a Bullitt bike, as I don't really like the look/style/design of most others!

tomasrojo

Effects wrote: »

I'm kind of set on getting a Bullitt bike, as I don't really like the look/style/design of most others!

That's a nice-looking bike. Stronger brakes as well.

Effects

Yeah, I had a quick test on one early last year. But I'm going to have another spin I think.
I've a mate who used to be a courier, who knows the guys in the Bike Institute well, so hoping they might let me take one for a few days.

buffalo

buffalo wrote: »

Larbre34 wrote: »

They could and they should. And honestly its what the locals want.

...

The solution for Sandymount, is a single lane village with increased public realm work and a complementary cycle lane on the Promenade of Sandymount strand. What DCC have tried to railroad through satisfies neither of those desires and goes against common sense and an achieveable win-win.

I haven't seen anything showing that any of the local groups are campaigning for the above. All I've seen is a rejection of any changes. Could you show where the locals are asking for this?

I note no response to this.

Other locals I've spoken to were dismissive of LTNs, which would solve the biggest concern of rat-running traffic. All I've seen from opposition to the trial is a demand to keep Strand Road open by any means, nothing about improving the area with any other measures.

Duckjob

No matter what is being proposed, it will be opposed.

The eternal opposition is a mix of people who:

a) just want to maintain the same ****ty status quo,

and

b) who spend their lives triggering themselves about "cyclists" and have wired their brains to automatically reject any changes if there is the faintest sniff that it might benefit people getting around on bikes.

Pretty sad really.

First Up

Duckjob wrote:

No matter what is being proposed, it will be opposed.

The objection is to road closures, not cyclists. The best solution would accomodate both but it looks like DCC isn't looking for that.

Let me illustrate the problem;

Access to the East Link Bridge is via Sean Moore Rd. No other option.

Sean Moore Rd has a junction with Strand Rd. I don't have exact figures but with almost 20,000 bridge crossings each day a conservative estimate is that about 8,000 motor vehicles take that route northbound every weekday. DCC might know the precise number but no evidence they ever looked for it or want to share it.

Sean Moore Rd can otherwise only be accessed via Sandymount Green or Bath Avenue/Londonbridge Rd or through Ringsend. If Strand Rd is closed to them, anyone using the East Link will have to go one of those routes.

That's a lot of cars, lorries, vans and trucks and even casual observation shows those roads are ill-suited to either large volume or large vehicles.

The response to that in this forum so far is that everyone should be using bikes or else shouldn't use the East Link Bridge. I wouldn't expect any better around here but all I have seen so far from the CEO of DCC are flippant and dismissive comments. No analysis , no planning.

We are entitled to more responsible and thorough analysis from Keegan and DCC before they cause such disruption to road users. I hope that our elected officials see it is done.

AndrewJRenko

First Up wrote: »

The objection is to road closures, not cyclists. The best solution would accomodate both but it looks like DCC isn't looking for that.

Let me illustrate the problem;

Access to the East Link Bridge is via Sean Moore Rd. No other option.

Sean Moore Rd has a junction with Strand Rd. I don't have exact figures but with almost 20,000 bridge crossings each day a conservative estimate is that about 8,000 motor vehicles take that route northbound every weekday. DCC might know the precise number but no evidence they ever looked for it or want to share it.

Sean Moore Rd can otherwise only be accessed via Sandymount Green or Bath Avenue/Londonbridge Rd or through Ringsend. If Strand Rd is closed to them, anyone using the East Link will have to go one of those routes.

That's a lot of cars, lorries, vans and trucks and even casual observation shows those roads are ill-suited to either large volume or large vehicles.

The response to that in this forum so far is that everyone should be using bikes or else shouldn't use the East Link Bridge. I wouldn't expect any better around here but all I have seen so far from the CEO of DCC are flippant and dismissive comments. No analysis , no planning.

We are entitled to more responsible and thorough analysis from Keegan and DCC before they cause such disruption to road users. I hope that our elected officials see it is done.

A) the road isn't being closed. It will be open to one way vehicular traffic and two way cycling.
cyclists are road users too, and are disrupted every day by dangerous driving and illegal parking.

First Up

AndrewJRenko wrote:

A) the road isn't being closed. It will be open to one way vehicular traffic and two way cycling. cyclists are road users too, and are disrupted every day by dangerous driving and illegal parking.

Q.E.D.

Seth Brundle

First Up wrote: »

That's a lot of cars, lorries, vans and trucks and even casual observation shows those roads are ill-suited to either large volume or large vehicles.

What percentage (roughly) of those car journeys need to be made by car and could not be made using alternative means?

Fighting Tao

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

A) the road isn't being closed. It will be open to one way vehicular traffic and two way cycling.
cyclists are road users too, and are disrupted every day by dangerous driving and illegal parking.

He knows all that but sadly he chooses to pretend to be ignorant to the facts as they don’t suit his agenda.

Weepsie

The average count of traffic from merrion gates up strandroad is approx 675 per hour (pre covid). Of that about 50 are trucks of some sort and the rest cars. At least half of that diverts into the city centre and doesn't go anywhere near the eastlink.

Now that's at Peak Hours, so being generous let's say 7-10 and 4-7. 6 hours a day, approx 4000 vehicles. Off peak, the remaining traffic would be more than capable of going other routes you;d think.

There's not really nearly as many trucks going that way as you seem to believe. Why would they unless they had to.


How much traffic crosses the bridge for Poolbeg, and Irish town and is crossing back over it merely hours later too? How much of that 20,000 is in fact northbound? It's the only toll that there is not data for it seems now, and it's owned by DCC so maybe they'll produce it,

First Up

Weepsie wrote:

How much traffic crosses the bridge for Poolbeg, and Irish town and is crossing back over it merely hours later too? How much of that 20,000 is in fact northbound? It's the only toll that there is not data for it seems now, and it's owned by DCC so maybe they'll produce it,

It would be helpful if they did. The last figures released are for 2016 and show 14,000 - 17,000 crossings per day. The economy has grown by about 15% since then so it should be somewhere in the 19/20 thousand region now. The breakdown in 2016 was higher for southbound usage, hence my estimate of 8,000 going north but DCC could tell us if they wanted to

First Up

Seth Brundle wrote:

What percentage (roughly) of those car journeys need to be made by car and could not be made using alternative means?

I suggest you ask DCC for their research into that. I mean surely they wouldn't do something as drastic without careful thought?

Mind you, somebody must have thought the East Link Bridge was needed once upon a time so maybe ask them too

First Up

Fighting Tao wrote:

He knows all that but sadly he chooses to pretend to be ignorant to the facts as they don’t suit his agenda.

AndrewJ already proved my point but thanks for underlining it.