Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

Peregrine

It must be said that the design at Balbutcher Lane is an improvement on Lombard Street. On Lombard Street, both cyclists going straight and cars turning left are given a green light and put on a collision course. The cyclist going straight has priority but drivers see their green filter light and don't expect to see cyclists at that position. The shape of the island is also all wrong and makes it look like you're turning left. Even good drivers can be caught out here.

At Balbutcher Lane, cars turning left have a flashing amber filter light. This should, in theory, make it clearer that they're supposed to give way. But it still doesn't always work out like that and you can still get left hooked.

Position at the junction is a key problem here. Both junction designs place cyclists directly beside drivers whereas dutch junctions place them further up the junction near the crossing so they're more visible to drivers and start crossing sooner. On the second and subsequent turns at Balbutcher Lane, the cyclist is further up the junction where they're more visible. So the risk in the second part of a right turn is actually lower than the first part.

While it's not legal, you could place yourself in a better position by yielding to pedestrians and moving up to where the right turning cyclists are supposed to be. But there's limited stacking capacity there so you may end up obstructing others at busier junctions.

In short, if you have to think about a junction this much, it's not safe for all ages and abilities.

cletus

breezy1985 wrote: »

I really didn't see the problem in the video

It seems like he was just showing a junction where traffic following the road have to cede way to traffic turning left, which is the opposite of of traffic usually works here.

I think the u turn was either to show both sides of the junction, or he was just heading home...

Effects

Did't they pull that island on Lombard St. up a few months ago?

Peregrine

Effects wrote: »

Did't they pull that island on Lombard St. up a few months ago?

Come to think of it, yes, there was some work done it late last year. I haven't been around that way since so I'm not sure what that they changed. Does anyone here know or could find out?

breezy1985

a_squirrelman wrote: »

Well if you were on the road you'd do a U turn as a car would. The main problem I see is turning right, why even bother using the cycle path if you have to wait for another light change after crossing the first crossing. Might as well use the road.

Ah ok I was looking for a major safety issue. One thing I would fix though is the bike light should give a head start

Weepsie

Peregrine wrote: »

Come to think of it, yes, there was some work done it late last year. I haven't been around that way since so I'm not sure what that they changed. Does anyone here know or could find out?

It's 1 min from work but I only go in once a week, I'll try to check it Monday

On your post above. My experience with drivers on Balbutcher lane, is not generally positive. A road that seems to attract bad driving and where it meets the Ballymun Road, the lights are considered optional at the best of times.

Seth Brundle

Looking closer at the Lombard st tweet vids, they're dated Feb 2020. Not sure why they're appearing back on my timeline again.

buffalo

a_squirrelman wrote: »

Well if you were on the road you'd do a U turn as a car would. The main problem I see is turning right, why even bother using the cycle path if you have to wait for another light change after crossing the first crossing. Might as well use the road.

You might as well, but less confident cyclists (who we're trying to persuade out of their cars) might be happy to wait the extra time so as not to mix with motor traffic.

What the unavoidable interaction at the straight ahead/left hook conflict point will do for their confidence... remains to be seen.

Qrt

The first bike light should be a flashing amber so you can just go to the next position when safe. It’s getting closer to the Dutch design but they seem to think island = safe.

If I’m not mistaken, this conflict with the left hook potential is actually common enough in NL, albeit being phased out.

Peregrine

a_squirrelman wrote: »

Well if you were on the road you'd do a U turn as a car would. The main problem I see is turning right, why even bother using the cycle path if you have to wait for another light change after crossing the first crossing. Might as well use the road.

That's a fair comment. It does take longer but at a well designed junction it should be safer. At a Dutch junction, you get free left turns. You simply yield to pedestrians and make the left turn. No need to wait at the junction. This should, on average, negate any time lost at right turns.

Similar idea but here's a left turn at a CYCLOPS junction in the UK:
https://twitter.com/MCRCycleSam/status/1350084165664989184?s=20

They also have an all green cycling phase so that a right turn can be made in one movement:
https://twitter.com/MCRCycleSam/status/1350085245849260034?s=20

But you can't do that with a Dublin-style junction without adding a separate signal phase just for cyclists. That would eat into the junction capacity. The CYCLOPS junction can do it because the cyclist and pedestrian phases run at the same time with pedestrian priority and it all works. You already get less junction capacity at a Dublin-style junction over Dutch and CYCLOPS junctions because of the longer pedestrian crossings. The lack of islands increase the crossing widths by up to 6m. This increases the time needed for crossings.

An Irish solution to an internationally solved problem.

Peregrine

There were a few proper Dutch junctions proposed in the second round of BusConnects Core Bus Corridors consultations. In the third round, they were all replaced with Dublin-style junctions.



They did however sneak in a few CYCLOPS junctions (like 1% of the total number of junctions across the full scheme) on the Clondalkin corridor. I don't know if they'll make it to the final An Bord Pleanála application.

breezy1985

Peregrine wrote: »

That's a fair comment. It does take longer but at a well designed junction it should be safer. At a Dutch junction, you get free left turns. You simply yield to pedestrians and make the left turn. No need to wait at the junction. This should, on average, negate any time lost at right turns.

Similar idea but here's a left turn at a CYCLOPS junction in the UK:
https://twitter.com/MCRCycleSam/status/1350084165664989184?s=20

They also have an all green cycling phase so that a right turn can be made in one movement:
https://twitter.com/MCRCycleSam/status/1350085245849260034?s=20

But you can't do that with a Dublin-style junction without adding a separate signal phase just for cyclists. That would eat into the junction capacity. The CYCLOPS junction can do it because the cyclist and pedestrian phases run at the same time with pedestrian priority and it all works. You already get less junction capacity at a Dublin-style junction over Dutch and CYCLOPS junctions because of the longer pedestrian crossings. The lack of islands increase the crossing widths by up to 6m. This increases the time needed for crossings.

An Irish solution to an internationally solved problem.

I dont see the difference in the junctions just the light sequence so it should be possible to give the Dublin one bike friendly lights

p15574

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Looking closer at the Lombard st tweet vids, they're dated Feb 2020. Not sure why they're appearing back on my timeline again.

Retweeted in response to the Balbutcher Lane junction to show they haven't learnt from their mistakes of over a year ago, even after loads of negative feedback, and advice about how it's done properly in places on the continent

Duckjob

That CYCLOPS junction looks sweet. Though I imagine them in the Dublin context with cars filling the junction and idiots creeping forward over the bike part and stopping on it when it finally dawns on them that there's a stationary car 2 feet in front of them and there's nowhere to go.

How do you stop drivers doing that sort of sh*te and ruining the flow of the junction ?

fixXxer

Duckjob wrote: »

That CYCLOPS junction looks sweet. Though I imagine them in the Dublin context with cars filling the junction and idiots creeping forward over the bike part and stopping on it when it finally dawns on them that there's a stationary car 2 feet in front of them and there's nowhere to go.

How do you stop drivers doing that sort of sh*te and ruining the flow of the junction ?

Cars already move into the brown bike only boxes without a second thought. You'd need cameras on each junction and automated fines sent out.

Effects

fixXxer wrote: »

Cars already move into the brown bike only boxes without a second thought. You'd need cameras on each junction and automated fines sent out.

I'd say that kind of solution is about 20 years away in Ireland.

Effects

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Looking closer at the Lombard st tweet vids, they're dated Feb 2020. Not sure why they're appearing back on my timeline again.

That's just how the youtube algorithm works.

Duckjob

fixXxer wrote: »

Cars already move into the brown bike only boxes without a second thought. You'd need cameras on each junction and automated fines sent out.

Effects wrote: »

I'd say that kind of solution is about 20 years away in Ireland.

Agree, and on a sidenote, given the tech is available today, why is it not being done already ? Are our politicians living in fear of the wrath of John and Mary motorist ?

Anyway, even with the best layout in the world, it's difficult for it to work effectively if you don't have penalties for bad behaviors.

Only way I can think to sidestep the need for enforcement would be complete disentanglement of modes at busy junctions - ie. build an overpass or underpass that allows people on bikes to bypass the junction completely and leave drivers to their clogged fumey mess.

fixXxer

Effects wrote: »

I'd say that kind of solution is about 20 years away in Ireland.

I was sure it was in place somewhere and found this.

Seems to be only on the LUAS line. Odd that it stopped there.

cgcsb

fixXxer wrote: »

I was sure it was in place somewhere and found this.

Seems to be only on the LUAS line. Odd that it stopped there.

This was switched off, infact it was never really used to issue any fines. Dublin also had a form of bus signal priority installed in the early 2000s and then it was switched off because it was inconvenient for motorists. Not much has changed since.

Peregrine

There will be news on camera enforcement in the coming months. Bus lanes for starters and hopefully red lights and yellow boxes too. It doesn't have to be at every junction but it should somewhat improve junction behaviour across the city.

Effects

fixXxer wrote: »

I was sure it was in place somewhere and found this.

Seems to be only on the LUAS line. Odd that it stopped there.

Yeah, and that was only due to the amount of accidents that took place with the Luas at that junction.

Macy0161

Still bus priority lights in Stillorgan, outbound, by the Stillorgan Park.

Peregrine wrote: »

There will be news on camera enforcement in the coming months. Bus lanes for starters and hopefully red lights and yellow boxes too. It doesn't have to be at every junction but it should somewhat improve junction behaviour across the city.

First average speed camera's coming https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2021/0309/1202942-speed-camera-gardai/
I'd prefer to see them on regional roads. Speeds both within village limits and outside are ridiculous.

But we're way behind where we should be. UK had static speeding and red light camera's back in the 90's. A number of places/ junctions had the infrastructure, and they randomly rotated the camera's in the boxes.

CramCycle

Macy0161 wrote: »

Still bus priority lights in Stillorgan, outbound, by the Stillorgan Park.

The amount of cars who skip up the bus lane but stop there when they have a green is shocking (both for using the bus lane and then blocking traffic). I always get dirty looks for progressing when its green but I know its because none of them pay attention to the Bus Lane green.

Seth Brundle

Bloody hell!

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1369684038005493770

cunavalos

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Bloody hell!

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1369684038005493770

But Mannix is a member of Dublin City Council Traffic and Transport SPC which gives him a reason to be involved

tomasrojo

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Bloody hell!

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1369684038005493770

I was just about to post that, on the grounds that it's partly in South Dublin, and because our old friend turns up.

tomasrojo

cunavalos wrote: »

But Mannix is a member of Dublin City Council Traffic and Transport SPC which gives him a reason to be involved

That's not why he's getting involved.

DoraDelite

The irrational anger that man seems to be harbouring 24x7 can't be good for his health. It's certainly not good for the residents of Dublin who would like cleaner air, safer roads and healthier living.

tomasrojo

The utter predictability of it. As I said before, this is on mannixflynn.com, so he's aware that support of purely hypothetical schemes plays well with voters that aren't paying that much attention to what he actually gets up to: