Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

Weepsie

Protected cycle lane and all is great, but the surface is still absolute sh!te

Thargor

Videos like this are very appropriate responses to a lot of the claims made about giving a bit of space to active travel causing congestion:

https://twitter.com/IrishCycle/status/1394572110278893569

Paddigol

Thargor wrote: »

Videos like this are very appropriate responses to a lot of the claims made about giving a bit of space to active travel causing congestion:

https://twitter.com/IrishCycle/status/1394572110278893569

I don't quite get the point - there's only one lane in each direction, no?? So to allocate one lane to two-way cycling would make it a one-way street for vehicles?

I'm not sure how the video helps the point - if someone is anti-cycling they'll simply say "exactly, now imagine how worse it would be with one less lane - we need MORE car lanes". The subtleties of a well-designed, integrated road structure where one way streets with two-way cycle lanes improves the overall flow and accessibility is lost on them.

Paddigol

On a related point - I recoil every time I hear 'protected cycle lane' mentioned, as though it's panacea to all of cycling's problems. It strikes me that it neglects the elephant in the room and the No. 1 problem faced with commuting and shared road use - the idea that cars are primary and more entitled to enjoyment of the roads. I'd say most anti-cycling folks (latent and blatant) would happily agree to big investment in cycling infrastructure if they thought it would rid the roads of cyclists and entitle them to sit on the horn whenever they come up behind a cyclist on the road. They'd probably even give up their demands that cyclists pay for this through 'bike tax'.

CramCycle

Paddigol wrote: »

I don't quite get the point - there's only one lane in each direction, no?? So to allocate one lane to two-way cycling would make it a one-way street for vehicles?

I think the point is it is effectively a one way street anyway, based on this video but I don't know where it is so can't say is it always like this or does it switch in the evening. Either way, as a selfish git, I would be fine with this, the cyclist basically has one lane to himself anyway.

tomasrojo

Paddigol wrote: »

On a related point - I recoil every time I hear 'protected cycle lane' mentioned, as though it's panacea to all of cycling's problems. It strikes me that it neglects the elephant in the room and the No. 1 problem faced with commuting and shared road use - the idea that cars are primary and more entitled to enjoyment of the roads. I'd say most anti-cycling folks (latent and blatant) would happily agree to big investment in cycling infrastructure if they thought it would rid the roads of cyclists and entitle them to sit on the horn whenever they come up behind a cyclist on the road. They'd probably even give up their demands that cyclists pay for this through 'bike tax'.

Something like this would have been my position, but based on the sharp rise of cycling numbers when a dedicated *network* of cycling infrastructure was installed rapidly in Seville, and seeing the change in the make-up of the population of people getting about by bike in areas where they've added even a limited network here, I think dedicated *networks* make a big difference.

Personally, my commute to work was perfectly tolerable before it was changed, but quieter routes with slowed or minimised motor traffic are actually pleasant.

Paddigol

tomasrojo wrote: »

Something like this would have been my position, but based on the sharp rise of cycling numbers when a dedicated *network* of cycling infrastructure was installed rapidly in Seville, and seeing the change in the make-up of the population of people getting about by bike in areas where they've added even a limited network here, I think dedicated *networks* make a big difference.

Personally, my commute to work was perfectly tolerable before it was changed, but quieter routes with slowed or minimised motor traffic are actually pleasant.

Yeah, I do accept that for sure. It's already great to see so many more people getting around by bike. And I'm probably in the minority of MAMILs who actually like to push the speed on the bike - I'm sure we're outnumbered by pure leisure/ easy commute cyclists.

I just think the whole mindset around road usage needs to be tackled, the same way any bad old 'norms' can't just be accepted on the basis that "that's how we've always done things" (think the shocking attitude to women in sport as a primary example).

buffalo

Paddigol wrote: »

Yeah, I do accept that for sure. It's already great to see so many more people getting around by bike. And I'm probably in the minority of MAMILs who actually like to push the speed on the bike - I'm sure we're outnumbered by pure leisure/ easy commute cyclists.

I just think the whole mindset around road usage needs to be tackled, the same way any bad old 'norms' can't just be accepted on the basis that "that's how we've always done things" (think the shocking attitude to women in sport as a primary example).

Encouraging active travel through the provision of decent infrastructure will change those norms gradually as more and more people - who previously wouldn't have considered cycling - start doing it daily because it feels safe and easy.

tomasrojo

buffalo wrote: »

Encouraging active travel through the provision of decent infrastructure will change those norms gradually as more and more people - who previously wouldn't have considered cycling - start doing it daily because it feels safe and easy.

Yeah, my earlier attitude was very much coloured by being shunted off the road onto a cycle track on the footpath and then left there with no way of getting back to the road, or directed down the inside of left-turning traffic to go straight on, but actual networks of joined up routes do seem to be transformative, and, as things stand, I hope to see more of them. Mistakes are still being repeated, and compromises that break the usefulness of the intrastructure are still being made, but I'm pretty happy with the changes I've seen on my usual routes. My daughters are happy to cycle with me around the neighbourhood now, and I don't get disapproval from third parties, so I'm very happy on that count.

tomasrojo

Paddigol wrote: »

Yeah, I do accept that for sure

Oh yeah, I do see your point, as (apart from the pushing-myself bit) I would have shared it in many ways.

buffalo

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1395012239141359618

I take full credit.

buffalo wrote: »

I only realised this morning that the Merrion Row plans make no provision for cyclists. As far as I can see, reversing Ely Place and Hume St adds about a kilometre onto the journey from Merrion Square to Stephen's Green. And that includes that lovely ambiguous merge from Baggot St onto Pembroke St, the unmarked drag strip along Fitzwilliam Square, and then the right turn at the bottom of Leeson Street.

Lots of room on both Ely Place and Hume St to widen the footpaths and add a contra-flow lane.

Have your say at https://consultation.dublincity.ie/traffic-and-transport/merrion-row-consultation/

Larbre34

RTÉ have it that the proposal by the DCC executive for a default 30 kph limit in urban Dublin, including arterial routes, is to be dropped, after the executive admitted the process was flawed and opposition strong. It is now a matter for City Councillors to either start a new review of speed limits or leave things as they are for the foreseeable future, the latter being the most likely outcome.

I'll be writing to DCC tomorrow insisting that Strand Road/Beach Road is returned to its standard limit of 50 kph forthwith. There is no justification for DCC leaving it at 30 pending the cycle route court case, when temporary signage at the revised junctions, where work had commenced, would suffice. Besides which the 30 limit is being neither observed nor enforced which just serves as a reminder what a farce the Traffic Dept of DCC have overseen all over the City this past year.

Dowee

Larbre34 wrote: »

Besides which the 30 limit is being neither observed nor enforced which just serves as a reminder what a farce the Traffic Dept of DCC have overseen all over the City this past year.

Not to mention a reminder that a sizable percentage of people in their cars feel they can do what they want, despite the law and without concern for the safety of other road users.

yascaoimhin

Larbre34 wrote: »

RTÉ have it that the proposal by the DCC executive for a default 30 kph limit in urban Dublin, including arterial routes, is to be dropped, after the executive admitted the process was flawed and opposition strong. It is now a matter for City Councillors to either start a new review of speed limits or leave things as they are for the foreseeable future, the latter being the most likely outcome.

I'll be writing to DCC tomorrow insisting that Strand Road/Beach Road is returned to its standard limit of 50 kph forthwith. There is no justification for DCC leaving it at 30 pending the cycle route court case, when temporary signage at the revised junctions, where work had commenced, would suffice. Besides which the 30 limit is being neither observed nor enforced which just serves as a reminder what a farce the Traffic Dept of DCC have overseen all over the City this past year.

RTÉ's reporting is bizarre. The support for the proposal outweigh opposition

"However of the 4,629 responses to the Consultation Hub, only 41% supported the idea compared to 46% against, with 9% in favour of some limited extension of the limit according to the results of a non-statutory public consultation."

ONLY 41% in favour...... with an additional 9% in favour or

Overall the proposal with 50% in favour and 46% against.
Regardless, road safety is not and should not be a popularity contest.

The results also heavily skewed towards car owners who naturally want to be able to drive as fast as possible without regard for others.

AS REGARDS STRAND ROAD...
Good God, you have some amount of issue with that road that's bordering on obsession. The Cases is ongoing, the works have been ordered to cease and so it cannot be made safe, so must remain at 30kmph.

Please attempt to hide your selfishness a bit better next time.

Dowee

yascaoimhin wrote: »

Regardless, road safety is not and should not be a popularity contest.

This is exactly the point. Should we have had a popularity contest to decide on:

- Mandatory seat belt wearing?
- Drink diriving limit?
- The workplace smoking ban?

Effects

Larbre34 wrote: »

Besides which the 30 limit is being neither observed nor enforced which just serves as a reminder what a farce the Traffic Dept of DCC have overseen all over the City this past year.

It just shows up what little regard drivers have for traffic laws actually.

Maybe instead of moaning to DCC, you could ask the Gardaí to do something about the situation.

Fighting Tao

Effects wrote: »

It just shows up what little regard drivers have for traffic laws actually.

Maybe instead of moaning to DCC, you could ask the Gardaí to do something about the situation.

Everyone knows that Owen Keegan is responsible for enforcing speed limits, right? The worlds problems is his fault according to Sandymount motorists.

It’s actually a ridiculous position to take. Rather than tackle the issue of non-enforcement, it’s better to have more dangerous roads.

Thelonious Monk

A 4 year old child killed yesterday in a housing estate, an 11 year old girl on a bike last week by a motorist, and it barely makes the news. 4 comments on the Journal yesterday for the child's article, and an article about a cycling app today has dozens already, some going on about how dangerous cyclists are. It's so f*cked up.
People drive like nutters on the 30 and 50km/h streets where I live, so much so I have to cycle on the footpaths on certain stretches because there are just too many angry lunatics around here.
The fact that people are writing letters over 30km/h on a tiny stretch of road that often has loads of cyclists on it is just sad.

tomasrojo

yascaoimhin wrote: »

RTÉ's reporting is bizarre. The support for the proposal outweigh opposition.

Yes, I thought that was odd, and the council hasn't even met to discuss what they're going to do.

Might be a solo run by the journalist:
https://twitter.com/Onyerbikedublin/status/1395315926694834176
https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1395317606245183488

Weepsie

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The fact that people are writing letters over 30km/h on a tiny stretch of road that often has loads of cyclists on it is just sad.

Sad isn't the word I'd use. Self important, ludicrous, arrogant, nonsensical. There's other words I'd use too, but don't want to be accused of belittling mental health.

Larbre34

Weepsie wrote: »

Sad isn't the word I'd use. Self important, ludicrous, arrogant, nonsensical. There's other words I'd use too, but don't want to be accused of belittling mental health.

My work here is done.

loyatemu

Larbre34 wrote: »

My work here is done.

stick to the speed limit on your way home.

Paddigol

Larbre34 wrote: »

My work here is done.

I'm not sure what that is meant to mean? Successful trolling? More's the pity people can't engage in good faith debate/ discussion on line without resorting to that.

Anyway, I think it's quite obvious that this is just the start of a roll back of car culture. It has been ingrained in our consciousness for so many decades that it will take years for us to make real progress, but the speed at which pedestrian and cycling infrastructure is popping up/ being improved in priority to car use is clear to anyone in Dublin.

The future is bright.

cgcsb

Paddigol wrote: »

I'm not sure what that is meant to mean? Successful trolling? More's the pity people can't engage in good faith debate/ discussion on line without resorting to that.

Anyway, I think it's quite obvious that this is just the start of a roll back of car culture. It has been ingrained in our consciousness for so many decades that it will take years for us to make real progress, but the speed at which pedestrian and cycling infrastructure is popping up/ being improved in priority to car use is clear to anyone in Dublin.

The future is bright.

What good quality cycling infrastructure has been built in Dublin? I can think of two short stretches by the canals and the Clontarf to Sutton route. Rest is just a few bollards along the patchy bits of cycle lane that already existed.

Stark

cgcsb wrote: »

What good quality cycling infrastructure has been built in Dublin? I can think of two short stretches by the canals and the Clontarf to Sutton route. Rest is just a few bollards along the patchy bits of cycle lane that already existed.

The Blackrock to Sandycove route is fantastic to be fair. North quays is a decent improvement over what was there. The various pieces could link up better (too many cross overs) but some really nice sections like Inn's quay/Ormond's quay. The new Royal canal section from Sheriff street to North strand road is short but very high quality and hopefully will continue on to Phibsborough in the next few years (it's cycle-able at the moment but not very wide). Baldoyle to Pormarnock is good as is Ashtown to Castleknock. The grand canal greenway would be amazing if it wasn't for the anti-social behaviour The general plans for DLR in the next few years look very exciting if they go ahead.

Paddigol

cgcsb wrote: »

What good quality cycling infrastructure has been built in Dublin? I can think of two short stretches by the canals and the Clontarf to Sutton route. Rest is just a few bollards along the patchy bits of cycle lane that already existed.

Well, I didn't say it was good :pac:

But there is a lot of it in the last 12 months. I see it a bit like our cafe culture. Time was when great coffee was a plunger in Bewleys rather than instant in a mug. Then came the likes of Insomnia... not great, but a recognition of changing times and paved the wide for excellent range now.

daragh_

Larbre34 wrote: »

My work here is done.

'work'...

cgcsb

Stark wrote: »

The Blackrock to Sandycove route is fantastic to be fair. North quays is a decent improvement over what was there. The various pieces could link up better (too many cross overs) but some really nice sections like Inn's quay/Ormond's quay. The new Royal canal section from Sheriff street to North strand road is short but very high quality and hopefully will continue on to Phibsborough in the next few years (it's cycle-able at the moment but not very wide). Baldoyle to Pormarnock is good as is Ashtown to Castleknock. The grand canal greenway would be amazing if it wasn't for the anti-social behaviour The general plans for DLR in the next few years look very exciting if they go ahead.

Yes blackrock to sandycove is good but poor quality surface, granted it's a temporary surface. There is also the south quays between City Quay and Capital Dock. So add that in and there's about 35km of good quality cycle route in Dublin. 100% of it built along bodies of water and mostly on land that was otherwise unused or taken from pedestrian space.

I wouldn't consider the temporary set up on the North quays to be good, or even a reasonable quality. It achieves segregation but the width is variable, mostly sub standard and most importantly the Junctions remain dangerous particularly the dumb cross over at Inns Quay. Also at the Capel Street Junction cars have a green to turn right onto the bridge same time as cyclists have green to go straight ahead. I note that DCC find this accepatable though because one of their 'good' design cycleways does this at Lombard/Townsend junction where cars have green to turn left while the segregated cycle way is green for straight on. I guess they want someone to be killed first before changing it. All in we've about 35k of cycle routes that meet minimum standards. There are plans to add 100s of km to that with bus connects but like most plans in Dublin, unlikely to happen.

nomdeboardie

So the revamp of Stillorgan Park Road is allegedly finally going ahead, and there may be some changes to the plans since last presented. Info and link for feedback https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/transportation/stillorgan-park-road-cycle-track-improvements/
closing date 9th July at 12noon
(As always, I don't find these plans easy to fully interpret, so not sure yet if I'm going to weigh in or what I'll be saying)

Macy0161

Paddigol wrote: »

Anyway, I think it's quite obvious that this is just the start of a roll back of car culture. It has been ingrained in our consciousness for so many decades that it will take years for us to make real progress, but the speed at which pedestrian and cycling infrastructure is popping up/ being improved in priority to car use is clear to anyone in Dublin.

I had to go in a few times a week for medical appointments. Clonskeagh road is definitely an improvement, but it seems like all the pedestrian/ cycling lights have much greater priority on that route (and the N11). Albeit I was mainly off peak - I don't know whether that is reflective peak times, but I think it is.

If it is, I think this is going to be a big thing that makes active commuting more attractive, as well as the obvious infrastructural improvements. And also much harder to argue against.