Trump vs Biden 2020, Day 64 of the Pennsylvania count (pt 5) Read OP

trashcan

Overheal wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E47YORTEBdI

That was great. Love John Oliver.

ForestFire

Deleted User wrote: »

They need to get rid of the electoral college. But republicans will never agree to that until at least one of the following occurs:

• Democrats win three terms in a row (most likely)
  
• Texas becomes consistently blue (somewhat likely)
  
• Democrats don't win the popular vote but still win the electoral college (least likely)

Until the electoral college is gone, America will continue to give power to those who haven't properly and democratically earned it.

Not sure there is a great deal wrong with this system (it not perfect), but I am sure there are improvements that could be made.

We almost have a similar system, where our "President" (The one with power) is elected from the votes acquired from parties in smaller electoral areas. It electoral areas has a number of vote (TD positions) based on the population of that area.

The main difference in the US is they are voting directly for the Person, where in Ireland we vote for a party/IND member and never know who we are going to get in the end (Okay should be one of the party leaders you'd think). But SF got the most votes in ireland and they are in opposition (This is just an example, I do not support any parties blindly)


I think the representation of the vote in the US is highly skewed now and that could be readjusted?

Also there are two states that currently spit there votes, based on the votes for each candidate. Maybe more states could follow this route and would require less overhaul across 50 states all to agree.

Getting 50 states to agree to a complete new system and have it fully implemented in 4 years would not be easy, seems to be the main issue for change?

ForestFire

ForestFire wrote: »

Not sure there is a great deal wrong with this system (it not perfect), but I am sure there are improvements that could be made.

As an example:

"According to the US Census Bureau, Wyoming has the country's smallest population with about 600,000 residents. California is home to 40 million people, more than all of Canada combined. Each of the three electors in Wyoming represent around 200,000 people, while each of California's 55 electors represent about 700,000 people. That alone gives Wyoming's electoral votes more representation than California's 55, but when you consider that Wyoming is 83% white and that California is only 38% white, the result is that the votes of people of color have less influence than the white electorate."

https://www.businessinsider.in/politics/world/news/biden-won-the-electoral-college-now-he-should-call-for-it-to-be-abolished-/articleshow/79115109.cms
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/CA,WY/PST045219

In what way do you think that that is a fair democratic system?

ForestFire

Deleted User wrote: »

As an example:

"According to the US Census Bureau, Wyoming has the country's smallest population with about 600,000 residents. California is home to 40 million people, more than all of Canada combined. Each of the three electors in Wyoming represent around 200,000 people, while each of California's 55 electors represent about 700,000 people. That alone gives Wyoming's electoral votes more representation than California's 55, but when you consider that Wyoming is 83% white and that California is only 38% white, the result is that the votes of people of color have less influence than the white electorate."

https://www.businessinsider.in/politics/world/news/biden-won-the-electoral-college-now-he-should-call-for-it-to-be-abolished-/articleshow/79115109.cms
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/CA,WY/PST045219

In what way do you think that that is a fair democratic system?

I address these points in my post:-

I think the representation of the vote in the US is highly skewed now and that could be readjusted?

Edit:-
Also I think this whole breakdown of Race in America is ridiculous, everyone gets one vote regardless (Not accounting for state representation as above of course).

Why break down at all how many hispanic voted for trump for example etc....it almost like they (basing this mainly on the US at the moment) are trying to create/maintain a divide the whole time, while also telling us we are all the same!!

Do we get a breakdown in Ireland how many travelers vote a certain way, or Polish immigrants etc.

ElitesTeam

ElitesTeam wrote: »

So you agree Biden is racist and you are cheering on a racist, says a lot about his supporters if the accept that

Do you believe that Trump is a racist? It was a yes or no question, I didn't mention Biden. Are you going to take the same defence as the last guy?

lemonTrees

Joe Biden has a troubling history on racial politics. Even Kamala agrees.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_FuG13z0bQ

Quin_Dub

DeanAustin wrote: »

To be fair, some of Trump's policies yielded results. Some of those were indisputably good (increase in income of lower earners, GDP growth, stock market surging) and others were what a large percentage of voters wanted (tougher on immigration, renegotiation of trade and environmental deals).

The issue with Trump is how he conducted himself and that made him toxic to a lot of people. However, if the Republicans can find a candidate who keeps a lot of the same policies but is a bit more polished, they will have a very viable candidate for the Presidency in 2024.

It's very easy to dismiss Trump as a clueless, ignorant buffoon. He makes it very easy to do that himself. But he's tapped into something in the US that a lot of voters seem to want.

Just on these 3 things - (increase in income of lower earners, GDP growth, stock market surging)

They either simply didn't happen or were significantly less spectacular than claimed by Trump.

Increased income for Lower Earners - Nope 57% of Americans earned less in 2019 than they did in 2016

GDP Growth - Yes , it grew but the growth was nothing special and was outpaced by every other President except GWB and Carter.(even excluding the collapse due to Covid)

Stock Market "surging" - Again , yes it grew , but slower than it did under Obama for example

Like most of his "achievements" the details are greatly exaggerated or just simply not true.

Across the whole range of Economic metrics , Trumps performance puts him in the lower half of Presidents over the last 50 years.


I absolutely agree with you that he tapped into the "disaffected" American far more effectively than any politician in a very long time .

He did nothing to make their lives better though.

Those people still exist and still need the help they thought that Trump was going to bring and that will be the challenge for any future US governments - How do they actually solve the problems that these people need help with.

The Issue is that the solution is probably more "Socialism" - Higher taxes on the wealthy funding Healthcare , Education etc. and the very same people those efforts would be targeted to help have been brain-washed into thinking that Taxes and Government supports are "Radical Communism" that will lead to the ruination of their country.

ForestFire

ForestFire wrote: »

I address these points in my post:-

I think the representation of the vote in the US is highly skewed now and that could be readjusted?

I politely disagree that you did.

Most importantly, I disagree with your opening line of their "not being a great deal wrong" with the system when you can have someone who can overwhelmingly win the popular vote but still not become president.

Bannasidhe

Necro wrote: »

Oh no not Benford's Law!!

Do you even know what Benford's Law is or are you just copying stuff from your Facebook feed?

Serious question.

I googled it.

I saw this

Benford's law, also called the Newcomb–Benford law, the law of anomalous numbers, or the first-digit law

and decided there was zero need for me to know Benford's Law.

Mitch Connor

vojiwox wrote: »

Referring to this I presume

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2020/may/22/joe-biden-charlamagne-you-aint-black-trump-video

that is pretty sh1t so.

hotmail.com

DeanAustin wrote: »

To be fair, some of Trump's policies yielded results. Some of those were indisputably good (increase in income of lower earners, GDP growth, stock market surging) and others were what a large percentage of voters wanted (tougher on immigration, renegotiation of trade and environmental deals).

The issue with Trump is how he conducted himself and that made him toxic to a lot of people. However, if the Republicans can find a candidate who keeps a lot of the same policies but is a bit more polished, they will have a very viable candidate for the Presidency in 2024.

It's very easy to dismiss Trump as a clueless, ignorant buffoon. He makes it very easy to do that himself. But he's tapped into something in the US that a lot of voters seem to want.

Absolutely. He was too American for the Americans. He reflected a harsh reality that Americans didn't want to see. This election wasn't about policy. Biden is closer to the Republicans than to the left of the Democrats.

Had Trump just tempered his language, not disrespected the other side so much, he may well have won the election. He should have tweeted less and tried more to stay out of the headlines (the George Bush approach).

He only has himself to blame for losing the election.

ohnonotgmail

ForestFire wrote: »

I address these points in my post:-

I think the representation of the vote in the US is highly skewed now and that could be readjusted?

you didnt. By way of analogy if we had a system where the whole of dublin only elected 4 TDs and roscommon also elected 4 TDs then you could say that they were similar. voters in the more populous states are far less represented than voters in the smaller states. In ireland we change the constituency boundaries regularly based on the census so that the number of TDs per 100,000 population is consistent across the country.

ohnonotgmail

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I googled it.

I saw this
and decided there was zero need for me to know Benford's Law.

it is actually kind of interesting.

Non solum non ambulabit

duploelabs wrote: »

Indeed trump did say this, however this is not fact

The fact is Trump said it. Read the statement again.

jill_valentine

Deleted User wrote: »

As an example:

"According to the US Census Bureau, Wyoming has the country's smallest population with about 600,000 residents. California is home to 40 million people, more than all of Canada combined. Each of the three electors in Wyoming represent around 200,000 people, while each of California's 55 electors represent about 700,000 people. That alone gives Wyoming's electoral votes more representation than California's 55, but when you consider that Wyoming is 83% white and that California is only 38% white, the result is that the votes of people of color have less influence than the white electorate."

https://www.businessinsider.in/politics/world/news/biden-won-the-electoral-college-now-he-should-call-for-it-to-be-abolished-/articleshow/79115109.cms
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/CA,WY/PST045219

In what way do you think that that is a fair democratic system?

Another way of looking at it -

"834,533 people in Alabama voted for Biden. That's more people than voted for Biden in Vermont, Delaware and DC combined. Alabama has more Dem voters than won Biden nine electoral votes."

https://mobile.twitter.com/MrcoEsquandolas/status/1324375643233157120

Numbers went up a bit since this tweet, but the point stands - and there's no telling how many people in Alabama might have voted for Biden if they felt he had a chance there.

What that means is that if he hadn't won all of those people would have gone entirely unrecorded and unregistered in their country's political system, made invisible by the all-or-nothing EC bloc.

It's not just Blue state voters who get cheated by this insanely stupid system.

Tony EH

vojiwox wrote: »

There's something impressive about Trump convincing his fans that he is standing up against the enemy, standing up to the MAN!! When he is the man, or was the man anyway.

There's nothing "impressive" about people deluding themselves or being taken for mugs either.

km991148

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

Imagine pinning your colours to a racist, loser baby. Sad.

Wait-

I thought Biden was the racist winner, baby.

Trump is the racist loser baby.

lemonTrees

ElitesTeam wrote: »

And she still wants to be his VP, how fake the demacorrupts

They are just politicians like any other just looking for a leg up. Trump was/is a complete numpty and idiot but this holier than thou attitude that Biden is some sort of demigod sent down to save the US is equally laughable and pathetic.

Biden won because he's not Trump, that's the bottom line.

Graham

lemonTrees wrote: »

this holier than thou attitude that Biden is some sort of demigod sent down to save the US is equally laughable and pathetic.

It probably would be if anyone had said it.

namloc1980

lemonTrees wrote: »

They are just politicians like any other just looking for a leg up. Trump was/is a complete numpty and idiot but this holier than thou attitude that Biden is some sort of demigod sent down to save the US is equally laughable and pathetic.

Biden won because he's not Trump, that's the bottom line.

You won't find anyone here who called Biden a demi god or the like. You're just making stuff up now to make yourself feel better. Those lemons on your trees must be extra bitter.

Chris_Heilong

hotmail.com wrote: »

Absolutely. He was too American for the Americans. He reflected a harsh reality that Americans didn't want to see. This election wasn't about policy. Biden is closer to the Republicans than to the left of the Democrats.

Had Trump just tempered his language, not disrespected the other side so much, he may well have won the election. He should have tweeted less and tried more to stay out of the headlines (the George Bush approach).

He only has himself to blame for losing the election.

Well and all the dead people voting, The counting machine "software issues" that were discovered giving Trump votes to Biden and the places that refused to allow republican watchers into the counting rooms but hey, lets keep the pretense that nothing foul happened this election and Joe Biden is just a more popular candidate then even Obama was.

Non solum non ambulabit

I think the sums up Trumps reign.

The President of the United States legal team holding a press conference in a parking lot in an industrial estate next to an adult entertainment store.

https://twitter.com/DrSimonAshworth/status/1325555072537866243

:D:D

lemonTrees

namloc1980 wrote: »

You won't find anyone here who called Biden a demi god or the like. You're just making stuff up now to make yourself feel better. Those lemons on your trees must be extra bitter.

You've used the same joke twice now, you need more material.

People are acting like Biden is the saviour and that's fair enough if they want to believe it but those people are open to ridicule just like the twits that voted for the orange twit.

ForestFire

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you didnt. By way of analogy if we had a system where the whole of dublin only elected 4 TDs and roscommon also elected 4 TDs then you could say that they were similar. voters in the more populous states are far less represented than voters in the smaller states. In ireland we change the constituency boundaries regularly based on the census so that the number of TDs per 100,000 population is consistent across the country.

I did.... I said our systems are similar (I did not say they were the same) , but the USA's representation per state is the issue, not the system itself and readjusting representation per populations would fix that issue, if possible...while still keeping the electoral college votes....

I also discussed other possible changes to improve their system and why changes in the USA are complex and it involves 50 seperate states to all agree to the new system before the next term.

ohnonotgmail

Two contrasting Der Spiegel covers

hotmail.com

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Well and all the dead people voting, The counting machine "software issues" that were discovered giving Trump votes to Biden and the places that refused to allow republican watchers into the counting rooms but hey, lets keep the pretense that nothing foul happened this election and Joe Biden is just a more popular candidate then even Obama was.

Surely if you believe this, then was 2016 fixed as well. And it looks like the Republicans did very well in the elections taking place last week.

Had Trump just backed off a bit, played the game, gave scripted nice speeches, he could have won a second term and then said whatever he wanted. He was too stupid to see past the first term.

Non solum non ambulabit

jill_valentine wrote: »

Another way of looking at it -

"834,533 people in Alabama voted for Biden. That's more people than voted for Biden in Vermont, Delaware and DC combined. Alabama has more Dem voters than won Biden nine electoral votes."

https://mobile.twitter.com/MrcoEsquandolas/status/1324375643233157120

Numbers went up a bit since this tweet, but the point stands - and there's no telling how many people in Alabama might have voted for Biden if they felt he had a chance there.

What that means is that if he hadn't won all of those people would have gone entirely unrecorded and unregistered in their country's political system, made invisible by the all-or-nothing EC bloc.

It's not just Blue state voters who get cheated by this insanely stupid system.

Exactly. Republicans in California or NY have no ability to impact the race and have their vote count for something.

amadangomor

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Well and all the dead people voting, The counting machine "software issues" that were discovered giving Trump votes to Biden and the places that refused to allow republican watchers into the counting rooms but hey, lets keep the pretense that nothing foul happened this election and Joe Biden is just a more popular candidate then even Obama was.

Insert baby whinging meme here

Mitch Connor

lemonTrees wrote: »

They are just politicians like any other just looking for a leg up. Trump was/is a complete numpty and idiot but this holier than thou attitude that Biden is some sort of demigod sent down to save the US is equally laughable and pathetic.

Biden won because he's not Trump, that's the bottom line.

And arguably Trump won because he was not Hillary.

that is not a tit-for-tat dig - I think it is genuinely arguable that 16 was a ref on Hillary as 20 is a ref on Trump.

I think any decent democrat ticket would have picked up the same numbers as Biden has. And with the way politics has become even more tribal in the states I would also say a very large amount of Trumps vote were simply 'Not Democrat' votes rather than a direct endorsement of Trump.

Timberrrrrrrr

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Well and all the dead people voting, The counting machine "software issues" that were discovered giving Trump votes to Biden and the places that refused to allow republican watchers into the counting rooms but hey, lets keep the pretense that nothing foul happened this election and Joe Biden is just a more popular candidate then even Obama was.

This never happened, why are ye lads so intent on spreading fake news? :pac: