Trump vs Biden 2020, Day 64 of the Pennsylvania count (pt 5) Read OP

DeanAustin

Quin_Dub wrote: »

We're arguing semantics now.

The question is , is Trumps claim to have "built the greatest economy in History of the world" fair or accurate.

The resounding answer to that is categorically no.

We can argue the minutiae of "how" great it was , but it categorically was not the greatest or even close to that.

On a Percentage basis , many other Presidents have overseen greater/faster growth , added more jobs etc. etc. etc.

He did not do a terrible job on the economy - Although with or without Covid a major crash was coming to his economy due to him hollowing out the tax base. But it wasn't "The Greatest" or even close.

And indeed , given that he talked about "the World" in his hyperbole , a multitude of other countries grew faster than the US in the same time period.

The bolded bit, we can't say for certain.

However, I agree that Trump, being Trump, was over hyperbolic in his claims. You could make an argument that a lot of his success was right place, right time. The issue I have is that a lot of people don't like Trump so rubbish or discredit his achievements because "well it's Trump, he's an idiot so of course he didn't do anything good."

cnocbui

DeanAustin wrote: »

That chart shows growth rather than actual performance in the Dow index. For a start, the Dow index only contains 30 companies. The S&P is a better marker because it contains 500 companies.

Also Obama came from an extremely low base. The market was on its knees when he took charge and had sunk. Trump took over when the market had grown for 6 years and continued to see it grow to record levels. It's withstood a pandemic. You may not like Trump, I don't, but the market performance under his Presidency has been at least as strong, I'd argue stronger all things considered, than it was under Obama.

Ok, the S&P improved 182% since inauguration under Obama vs Trump up 44%.

Obama inherited a basket case and had to undo the total disaster that was the shrub. Trump inheritad a mostly fixed and well improved economy. He then gave tax cuts to the rich, who not being able to find yield in bonds or elsewhere, went and spent it on equities. The rise in equities since QE has been duy to a lack of investment alternatives, not fantastic underlying economic performance.

Quin_Dub

DeanAustin wrote: »

That's not really fair. When he came into office, the national debt was $19.5tn. At the end of 2019, it was $22.7tn. It will go up massively in 2020 but it's the same for every country because of the pandemic.

By comparison, Obama came in in 2008. The National Debt was $10tn. It was almost doubled (at $19.5tn) when he left office in 2016. So Trump increased it by about 15% while Obama increased it by around 100%.

Of course, there are other contextual factors around that but they're the naked facts.

Trump helped drive the stock market growth with the corporation tax cut that he promised and delivered and also by making it easier to do business for firms through de-regulation. He deserves some credit for that if you believe that stock market growth is a good thing.

What you say is of course factually correct - But leaves unasked and unanswered the question "Why did he need to increase the deficit so much in a growing economy?

Because he bought the continued growth , his policies drove increased cost , increased the Trade deficit massively so he had to borrow to fill the holes left behind.

He maxxed out the National Credit card and Covid or not , that bill is coming due.

But , as is typical with GOP Presidents , he and they won't be around to pick up the tab. It will once again be a Democratic Party administration that will have to pay the piper.

On some levels you have got to admire their ability to repeatedly get away with the same trick.

Cut taxes , run up debt and the deficit and then bail out just before the sh!t really hits the fan and then sit in opposition and complain about all those tax increases and budget cuts that have to be used to pay their bills.

The US electorate keeps falling for it over and over again.

Shades of FF/FG of old.

ohnonotgmail

drogon. wrote: »

I see big fraud :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/yotankerrz/status/1325783419578683397?s=21

georgia has a population of 10M. a 2 second google search would have told you that

Quin_Dub

drogon. wrote: »

I see big fraud :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/yotankerrz/status/1325783419578683397?s=21

Except the Population of Georgia is over 10M.

The lack of basic cognitive function in some people is simply staggering.

Actually.. The 1st reply to that tweet covers both the lack of effort and the paucity of education that led to that post..

https://twitter.com/intodwetrvst/status/1325806140765188096

ohnonotgmail

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Except the Population of Georgia is over 10M.

The lack of basic cognitive function in some people is simply staggering.

I looked at the tweet and they were quoting the population of georgia the country.

Cordell

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I looked at the tweet and they were quoting the population of georgia the country.

The state the country same-same.

namloc1980

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I looked at the tweet and they were quoting the population of georgia the country.

I fully expect this to be provided as "evidence" in one of Rudy's lawsuits.

MeMen2_MoRi_

Pfizer giving the middle finger to pence/trump claiming credit with operation warp speed..

"But Dr. Jansen sought to distance the company from Operation Warp Speed and presidential politics, noting that the company — unlike the other vaccine front-runners — did not take any federal money to help pay for research and development.

“We were never part of the Warp Speed,” she said. “We have never taken any money from the U.S. government, or from anyone.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer.html

ohnonotgmail

I found the location of Rudys next press conference. he is having it at the Ritz

maebee

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I looked at the tweet and they were quoting the population of georgia the country.

Looks like it. How thick can they get eh?

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/georgia-population/#:~:text=The%20current%20population%20of%20Georgia,year%20according%20to%20UN%20data.

Billy Mays

drogon. wrote: »

I see big fraud :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/yotankerrz/status/1325783419578683397?s=21

I see big sucker

ohnonotgmail

maebee wrote: »

Looks like it. How thick can they get eh?

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/georgia-population/#:~:text=The%20current%20population%20of%20Georgia,year%20according%20to%20UN%20data.

they have yet to reach their nadir

MeMen2_MoRi_

DeanAustin.. you saying it was harder for trump to improves things much from where he took over from Obama, I agree. Yet the easiest way to improve things is to give tax cuts and companies then buy their own stock inflating their price.. that's not the sign of a healthy economy..

I'm sure he had things ticking over well, not on the scale that is being made out.

Curious_Case

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I found the location of Rudys next press conference. he is having it at the Ritz

Rudy starts speaking
Dump truck reverses into water hydrant
You can guess the rest !!!

tobefrank321

One of the reasons Trump is stretching this out is he is trying to raise money for an "election defence fund".

But almost half the money is being used to pay off campaign debts - which may be illegal. I'm fairly sure he will rake in millions from gullible supporters.

He may never concede. Best case scenario is he just walks out of there 20th January. After that he will be illegally squatting.

ChikiChiki

maebee wrote: »

Looks like it. How thick can they get eh?

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/georgia-population/#:~:text=The%20current%20population%20of%20Georgia,year%20according%20to%20UN%20data.

I think basic education and comprehension has passed a huge amount of the American population by. These people seem to have an inability to analyze information. Everything is black and white to them. At the same time, America is also is home to some of the greatest minds.

There is a stat where something like only 4% of Americans have a passport. It's a very insular country.

ohnonotgmail

Curious_Case wrote: »

Rudy starts speaking
Dump truck reverses into water hydrant
You can guess the rest !!!

It practically writes itself.

Junkyard Tom

DeanAustin wrote: »

Trump ... tapped into something in the US that a lot of voters seem to want.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Trump vowed not to cut Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid. He said he’d raise the minimum wage. He pledged to end Wall Street’s beloved carried-interest deduction. In his election night victory speech, he promised to “rebuild our highways, bridges, tunnels, airports, schools, hospitals.”

Source (worth the read)
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________


The above policies are ostensibly of 'the left', something the Democrats try to suppress in their own party. The Dems are already at each other over the success of 'the left' wing of their own party. It's depressingly similar to what happened within the Labour Party in recent years.

RobbieTheRobber

ChikiChiki wrote: »

I think basic education and comprehension has passed a huge amount of the American population by. These people seem to have an inability to analyze information. Everything is black and white to them. At the same time, America is also is home to some of the greatest minds.

There is a stat where something like only 4% of Americans have a passport. It's a very insular country.

its over 40% of the population that have passports.

drogon.

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Except the Population of Georgia is over 10M.

The lack of basic cognitive function in some people is simply staggering.

Actually.. The 1st reply to that tweet covers both the lack of effort and the paucity of education that led to that post..

https://twitter.com/intodwetrvst/status/1325806140765188096

I knew the twitter poster was talking about the country Georgia rather than the state. Was just trying to be sarcastic

DeanAustin

Quin_Dub wrote: »

What you say is of course factually correct - But leaves unasked and unanswered the question "Why did he need to increase the deficit so much in a growing economy?

Because he bought the continued growth , his policies drove increased cost , increased the Trade deficit massively so he had to borrow to fill the holes left behind.

He maxxed out the National Credit card and Covid or not , that bill is coming due.

But , as is typical with GOP Presidents , he and they won't be around to pick up the tab. It will once again be a Democratic Party administration that will have to pay the piper.

On some levels you have got to admire their ability to repeatedly get away with the same trick.

Cut taxes , run up debt and the deficit and then bail out just before the sh!t really hits the fan and then sit in opposition and complain about all those tax increases and budget cuts that have to be used to pay their bills.

The US electorate keeps falling for it over and over again.

Shades of FF/FG of old.

Clinton increased the deficit every year of his Presidency to the point that the national debt was 20% higher when he left office than when he got in. You could argue that he inherited an economy that was struggling. Fair enough. But national debt increased almost 10% in his second term. Did he buy growth?

Likewise with Obama. He doubled national debt. So he came in when the economy was on its knees. So let's give him his first term as a free hit. In his second term, national debt increased from $16tn to $19.5tn - a 20% increase (more than Trump increased it during his term).

So, clearly, it's not just something GOP candidates do. The last two Democrat presidents have done likewise even when the economy was booming.

maebee

John Taylor - a very nasty man

https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/1325766477841043461

Call Me Jimmy

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It practically writes itself.

Now half the world knows about little old Four Seasons Landscaping. Lewandowski is doubling down on his stupidity now, bringing up his mistake to try and cover for it. It may have been that they are so incompetent they can't even book a hotel but I wouldn't bank on it, it looks much more likely to be a a stunt in an asymmetric media war in which most are trying not to even cover the allegations of fraud / irregularities.

If it was so obviously legitimate there won't be any problem investigating these things. Sour grapes? Most likely, but investigations and the litigation will only improve confidence in the close result when they fail. So win win.

Kermit.de.frog

maebee wrote: »

John Taylor - a very nasty man

https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/1325766477841043461

Getting more than he asked for with that tweet. What a dumb man. He said the exact same about Varadkar previously.

https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1325809748659343361

DeanAustin

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

DeanAustin.. you saying it was harder for trump to improves things much from where he took over from Obama, I agree. Yet the easiest way to improve things is to give tax cuts and companies then buy their own stock inflating their price.. that's not the sign of a healthy economy..

I'm sure he had things ticking over well, not on the scale that is being made out.

There's merit in what you're saying. The tax cut fuelled buybacks. No doubt about it. But to what extent. Take two companies who don't buy back their stock - Amazon and Workday.

Amazon's stock was $750 when Trump got in. By the end of 2019, it was almost $1,800.

Workday's stock was around $80 when Trump got in. It was around $160 at the end of 2019.

Neither of those were fuelled by stock buybacks. Stock buybacks grew hugely in 2018 after the tax cut but the market grew at a faster rate. Stock buybacks declined in 2019 but the market continued to grow.

It's easy to buy into "Well Trump just bought that growth with a tax cut". It played a big part but it's not the full story.

VinLieger

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Now half the world knows about little old Four Seasons Landscaping. Lewandowski is doubling down on his stupidity now, bringing up his mistake to try and cover for it. It may have been that they are so incompetent they can't even book a hotel but I wouldn't bank on it, it looks much more likely to be a a stunt in an asymmetric media war in which most are trying not to even cover the allegations of fraud / irregularities.

If it was so obviously legitimate there won't be any problem investigating these things. Sour grapes? Most likely, but investigations and the litigation will only improve confidence in the close result when they fail. So win win.

It has the the look of the kind of omnishambles jacob wohl and jack burkman would have cooked up and had explode in their faces, unfortunately they are both currently in jail after being charged for real voter suppression and telecommunications fraud so they can't even blame it on them.

Carfacemandog

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

It may have been that they are so incompetent they can't even book a hotel but I wouldn't bank on it, it looks much more likely to be a a stunt in an asymmetric media war in which most are trying not to even cover the allegations of fraud / irregularities.

So was it that the media invented this landscaping company in the hopes of fooling Trumps team wh othey were hoping would fall for a booking?

Or was it that the media infiltrated Trumps team and then made bad bookings in their behalf?

tobefrank321

DeanAustin wrote: »

Clinton increased the deficit every year of his Presidency to the point that the national debt was 20% higher when he left office than when he got in. You could argue that he inherited an economy that was struggling. Fair enough. But national debt increased almost 10% in his second term. Did he buy growth?

Likewise with Obama. He doubled national debt. So he came in when the economy was on its knees. So let's give him his first term as a free hit. In his second term, national debt increased from $16tn to $19.5tn - a 20% increase (more than Trump increased it during his term).

So, clearly, it's not just something GOP candidates do. The last two Democrat presidents have done likewise even when the economy was booming.

Probably more important than the actual debt is the percentage of GDP. Under Reagan it jumped from 32% to 50%. Under Bush Snr. it jumped a whopping 11% in just 3 years. In the 8 years Clinton was in office it dropped from 62% to 55%, a really good outcome.

And to put it in perspective, the National Debt dropped from 43% of GDP in 1965 to 32% in 1980, a period which saw the US fight the Vietnam War, send several missions to the Moon, the oil crisis and other major issues.

And FDR and Obama aside, all other significant drops in Debt to GDP have come under Democrat administrations.

https://www.thebalance.com/national-debt-by-year-compared-to-gdp-and-major-events-3306287

MeMen2_MoRi_

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Trump vowed not to cut Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid. He said he’d raise the minimum wage. He pledged to end Wall Street’s beloved carried-interest deduction. In his election night victory speech, he promised to “rebuild our highways, bridges, tunnels, airports, schools, hospitals.”

Source (worth the read)

The above policies are ostensibly of 'the left', something the Democrats try to suppress in their own party. The Dems are already at each other over the success of 'the left' wing of their own party. It's depressingly similar to what happened within the Labour Party in recent years.

Dems that ran on moderate policies lost seats for the Dems, others that ran on M4A retained theirs, also won seats.

The top of the Dems have no balls to take the party where their base wants them to go. Walking talking disaster waiting to happen in the future if they don't wake up.

https://twitter.com/IanSams/status/1325645890476978176?s=19

Speaking sense so she is.