Trump vs Biden 2020, Day 64 of the Pennsylvania count (pt 5) Read OP

eagle eye

DubInMeath wrote:

Silly argument, you are claiming that anyone who goes to a pub has addiction issues.
Buck stops with trump.

I'd say anybody going to a pub when they are not supposed to be open has a drink problem.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

I'd say anybody going to a pub when they are not supposed to be open has a drink problem.

Can't go to a pub that's closed.

Padre_Pio

eagle eye wrote: »

If you cannot assign blame to people for risking their and others lives by attending an event with no masks or social distancing then I give up on you.

I agree that people should have more personal responsibility, but that's just not how the world works.

In the world of claimants and compensation, the onus is rarely on the individual.
If ANYONE tried to hold a public event in Ireland or any other country, they would rightly be attacked and blamed for putting the public at risk.

robinph

eagle eye wrote: »

The people themselves and the idiot telling them nit to wear a mask. Both.

And how much of the blame would you apportion to each?

If the government that you elected and trusted to run the country is telling you do do something, including not believe other sources of information and not to do your own research because the government knows best, then why are you absolving the government of the majority of the responsibility for the actions of their population?

The people have been told not to believe other sources of information other than Trump himself, why does he then get away with the responsibility when he's been giving out the wrong information?

eagle eye

robinph wrote:

And how much of the blame would you apportion to each?

I blame both pretty much equally.
Our government opened schools and pretty much said they are safe. I don't agree with them and my kids are currently being homeschooled and won't return until such time as there is definitive proof that they are safe.
I was intending to send them back before Christmas if this latest lockdown worked but we've plateaued and it seems obvious to me that the schools are a part of that.
If I had sent my kids back to school and one of them ended up with pims or long covid I'd never forgive myself. In other words I'd blame myself first and foremost.

robinph

eagle eye wrote: »

I blame both pretty much equally.
Our government opened schools and pretty much said they are safe. I don't agree with them and my kids are currently being homeschooled and won't return until such time as there is definitive proof that they are safe.
I was intending to send them back before Christmas if this latest lockdown worked but we've plateaued and it seems obvious to me that the schools are a part of that.
If I had sent my kids back to school and one of them ended up with pims or long covid I'd never forgive myself. In other words I'd blame myself first and foremost.

Except in the situation we are discussing you would have been told for 4 years that there is no other source of information than the governments official Twitter feed, and then this year that there is no Covid because it's all a conspiracy by the libs. What reason do you have for having gone to read up other information sources than the Twitter feed of the government? If you research other sources then you are a traitor to your country.

Doing your own research is not allowed in Trump world.

eagle eye

If you are stupid enough to believe that then what's the solution? Lock them up?

Everybody has a choice.

duploelabs

Trump administration courting the far right again https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/19/mike-pompeo-makes-provocative-visit-to-israeli-settlement?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

If you are stupid enough to believe that then what's the solution?

Elect a new leader.

eagle eye

duploelabs wrote: »

Trump administration courting the far right again https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/19/mike-pompeo-makes-provocative-visit-to-israeli-settlement?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Pardon my ignorance but are the Israeli government considered far right?

seamus

eagle eye wrote: »

I blame both pretty much equally.
Our government opened schools and pretty much said they are safe. I don't agree with them and my kids are currently being homeschooled and won't return until such time as there is definitive proof that they are safe.
I was intending to send them back before Christmas if this latest lockdown worked but we've plateaued and it seems obvious to me that the schools are a part of that.
If I had sent my kids back to school and one of them ended up with pims or long covid I'd never forgive myself. In other words I'd blame myself first and foremost.

Funnily enough, your rationale and an anti-masker's are similar. You're engaging in a form of confirmation bias, and I can prove it;

If the government closed all of the schools tomorrow and said the schools are unsafe, you would say, "I knew it, I always knew it, I was right".

What you wouldn't do, is ask for definite proof that the schools are unsafe. There could be no evidence at all. NPHET might even state that they disagree with the government, but the government could say they have "concerns" and that would be good enough for you. So when it comes to changing your position, you require "definitive" proof. When it comes to confirming your position, you require no proof at all. You have decided the schools are not safe, based on your own gut feeling, with no evidence at all.

That's confirmation bias. And that's exactly what Trump's anti-mask supporters did too. They wanted to believe that covid was a scam, that masks were unnecessary, that restrictions were unnecessary. We ALL did, we all wanted to deny this was happening.

Trump gave them that out. In a time when the importance of pushing back against our denials was never higher, Trump instead confirmed for his supporters that it was all a sham. That makes him to blame. Authority figures have a position of trust and confidence, and they have an obligation to use that position for the social good.

Likewise it would be tremendously wrong for Micháel Martin to come out and declare the schools unsafe when the evidence suggests otherwise, and he would be personally to blame for the damage that would be result to the education system. I wouldn't blame all the people pulling their kids out of school unnecessarily, I would blame Martin.

Curious_Case

I spend all day sitting in my room whilst listening to Alex Jones and David Icke.

Sometimes I put on a tinfoil hat and conduct scrying sessions by staring into my naval.

That aside, am I the first to think that Trump could well end up being tried for treason (compromising national security abroad) ???

eagle eye

seamus wrote: »

Funnily enough, your rationale and an anti-masker's are similar. You're engaging in a form of confirmation bias, and I can prove it;

If the government closed all of the schools tomorrow and said the schools are unsafe, you would say, "I knew it, I always knew it, I was right".

What you wouldn't do, is ask for definite proof that the schools are unsafe. There could be no evidence at all. NPHET might even state that they disagree with the government, but the government could say they have "concerns" and that would be good enough for you. So when it comes to changing your position, you require "definitive" proof. When it comes to confirming your position, you require no proof at all. You have decided the schools are not safe, based on your own gut feeling, with no evidence at all.

Lots of guff in here. You don't know me at all.

I would never claim I was right without definitive proof.

I would like to have definitive proof one way or the other as then my decision would be a simple one.

My position is solely based on maintaining the good health of my children. It's my job to protect them.

And my decisions are based off of math, not gut feeling.

So you couldn't be more wrong.

Overheal

The post-2008 Tea Party called and it wants it's grift back:

https://www.mediaite.com/news/newsmaxs-greg-kelly-calls-for-trump-supporters-to-form-new-maga-party-republicans-just-arent-cutting-it/

Newsmax host Greg Kelly called on conservatives to replace the Republican Party with a “MAGA Party.”

“We need a new party,” Kelly told viewers of his 7 p.m. show, Greg Kelly Reports, on Wednesday evening. “Democrats aren’t cutting it, and quite frankly, I don’t think the Republicans are cutting it. At least a lot of them are just mailing it in.”

Kelly said the new party should be endowed with the acronym for “Make America great again,” the campaign slogan popularized by President Donald Trump in 2016. “The ‘MAGA Party’ — a party about ideas, the Constitution, opportunity, liberty,” Kelly said. “Term limits, the Second Amendment, and canceling … the deep state and the federal bureaucracy.”

“There are some good people, but let’s face it,” he added. “It is big and bloated, and all kinds of waste could be cut away. I think it’s something that deserves serious, serious consideration in this country.”

Watch above via Newsmax.

Eric Cartman

duploelabs wrote: »

Trump administration courting the far right again https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/19/mike-pompeo-makes-provocative-visit-to-israeli-settlement?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

the far right are notoriously fans of Israel...

at this point I think the definition of far right has just grown to 'everyone a European left/ centre left person doesn't like'

Tony EH

Overheal wrote: »

The post-2008 Tea Party called and it wants it's grift back:

https://www.mediaite.com/news/newsmaxs-greg-kelly-calls-for-trump-supporters-to-form-new-maga-party-republicans-just-arent-cutting-it/

Newsmax host Greg Kelly called on conservatives to replace the Republican Party with a “MAGA Party.”

“We need a new party,” Kelly told viewers of his 7 p.m. show, Greg Kelly Reports, on Wednesday evening. “Democrats aren’t cutting it, and quite frankly, I don’t think the Republicans are cutting it. At least a lot of them are just mailing it in.”

Kelly said the new party should be endowed with the acronym for “Make America great again,” the campaign slogan popularized by President Donald Trump in 2016. “The ‘MAGA Party’ — a party about ideas, the Constitution, opportunity, liberty,” Kelly said. “Term limits, the Second Amendment, and canceling … the deep state and the federal bureaucracy.”

“There are some good people, but let’s face it,” he added. “It is big and bloated, and all kinds of waste could be cut away. I think it’s something that deserves serious, serious consideration in this country.”

Watch above via Newsmax.

A party based entirely on a slogan.

That's all you need to know about that nonsense.

The Raging Bile Duct

Tony EH wrote: »

A party based entirely on a slogan.

That's all you need to know about that nonsense.

Let them at it, it would completely hobble the conservative vote in the States.

ollkiller

Tony EH wrote: »

A party based entirely on a slogan.

That's all you need to know about that nonsense.

I for one hope their new party comes to fruition. Will split the republican vote leading to numerous presidential wins for the Democrats.

eagle eye

ollkiller wrote:

I for one hope their new party comes to fruition. Will split the republican vote leading to numerous presidential wins for the Democrats.

If you get one new party another will follow. I'd suspect that you'll see a split in the Democrats between socialists, centrists and right wing. That's been coming for a while and I see it happening if a new party gets any standing.

Chris_Heilong

astrofool wrote: »

You said Pfizer got money for the development of the vaccine, that was a lie, they got paid for the completed vaccine, Pfizer funded creation of the vaccine all by themselves, you lied.

Clinton didn't start Russian rumours, Russian links to trump's administration was proven and multiple people working for trump have been indicted or jailed due to these links, fact. They were not rumours, and not started by Clinton. That is 2 more times you have lied.

You are a liar.

Every thing I said on the Clintons is in many publications online. It is not just made up by me and is well know information.

The muller report found no proof of Trump collusion with Russia. Fact.

As far as what company was received money I just a mistake as my information was that money from the US government was used to develop a vaccine, At the time of my first post on the subject I was only aware that Pfizer had a vaccine so I assumed it was them that got the money not aware there were multiple vaccines that had been created.

Eric Cartman

eagle eye wrote: »

If you get one new party another will follow. I'd suspect that you'll see a split in the Democrats between socialists, centrists and right wing. That's been coming for a while and I see it happening if a new party gets any standing.

this is it, the Dems are much more liable to fracture, from the more traditional centre right fold, to the Bernie fold and then the fringe AOC/Green/Communism will win fold.

that third one will never succeed as it would fracture itself over minor issues of policy similar to how our left here does. But the first two would sever the vote between them.

Kermit.de.frog

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1329408856733184008

Giuliani up soon for anyone looking for some comic relief

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buQCdCSDWQQ

eagle eye

Eric Cartman wrote:

this is it, the Dems are much more liable to fracture, from the more traditional centre right fold, to the Bernie fold and then the fringe AOC/Green/Communism will win fold.

that third one will never succeed as it would fracture itself over minor issues of policy similar to how our left here does. But the first two would sever the vote between them.

I predicted long ago that Trump would firm a new party after one term as POTUS.
If that happens and thus new party gets any standing then you'll see the Democrats split.
If there is no new party formed then the Democrats won't split.

duploelabs

eagle eye wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance but are the Israeli government considered far right?

You or Eric didn't read the article did you?

Quin_Dub

Eric Cartman wrote: »

this is it, the Dems are much more liable to fracture, from the more traditional centre right fold, to the Bernie fold and then the fringe AOC/Green/Communism will win fold.

that third one will never succeed as it would fracture itself over minor issues of policy similar to how our left here does. But the first two would sever the vote between them.

Realistically , there is political room in the US for four or five parties with fairly clear differentiation in focus and policy.

However the US Electoral system does not lend itself to that actually happening in any meaningful way.

Pre-Trump what that led to was Presidential candidates having to veer out to the outer edges of their party view points during the Primary season and then drifting back to the Centre for the actual POTUS election.

Trump never bothered with that though and just stayed out on the edge.

It remains to be seen if that recipe is sustainable - It certainly didn't work for Trump a second time.

Tell me how

eagle eye wrote: »

I predicted long ago that Trump would firm a new party after one term as POTUS.
If that happens and thus new party gets any standing then you'll see the Democrats split.
If there is no new party formed then the Democrats won't split.

Trump is a 74 year old who is in debt to the tune of at least 400M, has countless ongoing investigations in to his practices and has just lost the election.

On Saturday, he didn't even get out of his car to greet his supporters at a MAGA fantasy parade which he drove through on his way to play golf.

His administration was noteworthy for the amount of people who came and left during it with many of them having few positive words to say about him as they walked out. He endorsed several candidates in elections over the 4 years who lost in their races.

He has zero capacity in putting in the ground work to get sufficient numbers of people to buy in to his message in a grass root level and to build a cohesive message or strong team to spread out.

Remember when all his supporters came out to deny that he had said anything about disienfectant being used to combat covid and literally as they were doing that, he pulled the rug from under them by admitting he had said it but he was being sarcastic. A new party with Trump at the helm would never be able to get a cohesive story without the weight of blind allegiance to the Republican party to help him.

jill_valentine

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the far right are notoriously fans of Israel...

They are, yes.

A cornerstone of Right Wing Christianity is that there be a strongly militaristic Jewish Israel, because it's required for the biblical holy war in the Middle East. This is an explicit religious tenet, it's called "Christian Zionism" and Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson both preached it quite famously. It's not that they "like" Israel, it's that they consider it a part of the puzzle that has to be in place to get what they want - there must be a Jewish Israel, it must go to war, and it must be destroyed.

In addition, relatively secular flavors of anti Semitism insist on Israel as a Jewish state because they want Jews to go "back" there rather than staying in the US and behaving as - as they perceive - double agents in "their" country. The existence of such a neatly sorted religious ethnostate would also shore up their ideological drive for a corresponding white Christian one.

And finally there's just the fuzzy feelgoods they get from knowing somebody's killing Muslims, a conditional Enemy of their Enemy dynamic.

Carfacemandog

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the far right are notoriously fans of Israel...

at this point I think the definition of far right has just grown to 'everyone a European left/ centre left person doesn't like'

Israel have been getting very cosy with the far right in recent times actually. https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/israel-s-dance-with-far-right-movements-across-the-world-24677/amp

duploelabs

jill_valentine wrote: »

They are, yes.

A cornerstone of Right Wing Christianity is that there be a strongly militaristic Jewish Israel, because it's required for the biblical holy war in the Middle East. This is an explicit religious tenet, it's called "Christian Zionism" and Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson both preached it quite famously. It's not that they "like" Israel, it's that they consider it a part of the puzzle that has to be in place to get what they want - there must be a Jewish Israel, it must go to war, and it must be destroyed.

In addition, relatively secular flavors of anti Semitism insist on Israel as a Jewish state because they want Jews to go "back" there rather than staying in the US and behaving as - as they perceive - double agents in "their" country.

And finally there's just the fuzzy feelgoods they get from knowing somebody's killing Muslims, a conditional Enemy of their Enemy dynamic.

An adroit post.

Also would be tied to the fundamental evangelical belief, which Mike Pompeo is a member of, that the establishment of a 'wider' Israeli state is part of the advancement of the second coming of christ. And then there's the orange order's affinity to that effect

Guy:Incognito

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm growing tired of this stupid stuff.

Trump is a horrible human being and responsible for an awful lot of bad things that have happened and he certainly bears a partial responsibility for organising the rallies.
The lot of you though just want to put full responsibility for everything on him. It's an unnatural hate you have. I despise the man but I can step back and take a breath and see the wood from the trees.

If you cannot assign blame to people for risking their and others lives by attending an event with no masks or social distancing then I give up on you.

Itd be easier to get on board with that if he wasnt undermining his own medical experts advice and trying to get rid of the likes of Fauci because he didnt like what he had to say.
Trump should have been telling his supporters to wear masks as soon as the advice was to wear masks, not mocking people for wearing them, refusing to wear one himself and refusing to tell the country to wear them . He bears huge responsibility for spreading anti mask ****. Telling his supporters the media are liars and trying to tear down the country undermines so much of the efforts being made too.

Yeah, bang on about personal responsibility but there are a huge number of people that are idiots and go along with the **** people like him say. Look at all the religious nuts alone that proclaim him some sort of messiah. These people need protecting from themselves and someone with such sway shouldn't be peddling anti science nonsense. What about the people that do act responsibly but have to spend time near an idiot that doesnt?

Anyone thats worked retail will attest to the sheer amount of morons and arseholes among the general public.