Vat fraud??

baalad

Forgive me if i posted this in the wrong section.

Basically i was shopping online recently and in the process of buying an expensive item. At the checkout i noticed there was box that allowed you to enter a vat number and have the vat deducted at the checkout so i would receive an instant discount!

I decided to enter my boss's vat number and couldn't believe the amount i was saving. At the time i didn't give it much thought! I went ahead and ordered the product and it has since been dispatched.

Afterwards however i couldn't understand how this could be so easy! I figured that if he ordered the product he could use the vat number and save some money so what was the difference if i just used it instead of him. Its not costing him anything for example right??

What am i missing here? What are the implications of this ? How does this work and how would anyone know/prove that it was me that used the vat number??

I managed to save almost 1000 euro doing this but it was far too easy to just grab any random vat number so iam guessing theres a catch? Sadly i didnt give it much thought until afterwards.

Deagol

baalad wrote: »

Forgive me if i posted this in the wrong section.

Basically i was shopping online recently and in the process of buying an expensive item. At the checkout i noticed there was box that allowed you to enter a vat number and have the vat deducted at the checkout so i would receive an instant discount!

I decided to enter my boss's vat number and couldn't believe the amount i was saving. At the time i didn't give it much thought! I went ahead and ordered the product and it has since been dispatched.

Afterwards however i couldn't understand how this could be so easy! I figured that if he ordered the product he could use the vat number and save some money so what was the difference if i just used it instead of him. Its not costing him anything for example right??

What am i missing here? What are the implications of this ? How does this work and how would anyone know/prove that it was me that used the vat number??

I managed to save almost 1000 euro doing this but it was far too easy to just grab any random vat number so iam guessing theres a catch? Sadly i didnt give it much thought until afterwards.

<Gets the popcorn>

baalad

Deagol wrote: »

<Gets the popcorn>

If iam liable for money then ill pay it. No big deal. Iam trying to rectify any wrong doing not get away with theft. I just didnt give it much thought at the time and who wouldnt want to save 1000 euro ???

Stratvs

Ok I had started several answers but kept going back to the start as I just couldn’t believe this isn’t a really bad attempt at trolling. So instead before explaining anything please tell me you didn’t actually do this and it’s just weekend humour.

baalad

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Re the underlined piece, you ordered on line and paid with your CC... IP address etc.

When you say you boss's number, is it a company or personal VAT number.
IN any event unless the piece is for use in the business then the Vat is not reclaimable so it does make a difference

How can you reclaim vat that was never paid to begin with? Genuine question! If the vat was deducted at the checkout and therefore never paid. Then there is no vat to claim back??

Under normal circumstances a business would pay the vat and reclaim it but this discounts the vat so your not charged it to begin with!

Car99

baalad wrote: »

How can you reclaim vat that was never paid to begin with? Genuine question! If the vat was deducted at the checkout and therefore never paid. Then there is no vat to claim back??

Under normal circumstances a business would pay the vat and reclaim it but this discounts the vat so your not charged it to begin with!

Was this item being bought outside the state?

Deagol

baalad wrote: »

If iam liable for money then ill pay it. No big deal. Iam trying to rectify any wrong doing not get away with theft. I just didnt give it much thought at the time and who wouldnt want to save 1000 euro ???

You could think of it this way - I can drive the 10 km's home from the pub tonight after 10 pints of porter in 3 minutes. I'll apologise to the garda the next day for the drink driving and the speeding.

You've committed fraud - it may not be as simple as you think to unwind it. Especially as you've implicated your boss in your fraud.

Calahonda52

https://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/goods-and-services-to-and-from-abroad/acquisitions-from-other-eu-member-states/self-accounting-for-vat.aspx

baalad

Car99 wrote: »

Was this item being bought outside the state?

Yes

baalad

Deagol wrote: »

You could think of it this way - I can drive the 10 km's home from the pub tonight after 10 pints of porter in 3 minutes. I'll apologise to the garda the next day for the drink driving and the speeding.

You've committed fraud - it may not be as simple as you think to unwind it. Especially as you've implicated your boss in your fraud.

Myself and my boss are on very good terms. Ill explain to him and if its at any cost to himself then ill happily pay it.

Stratvs

But you are charged it. Or rather the business is charged the VAT but under EU acquisitions the Irish business self accounts for the VAT under the reverse charge mechanism. So instead of paying the EU supplier the VAT they pay the net amount. Then they self account for the VAT by including it in the sales part of their VAT return. If they are entitled to an input credit for the VAT then they can deduct it in their purchases and the two amounts cancel each other out. If they are not entitled to an input credit then the VAT ends up being paid to Irish Revenue.

So what you’ve done is enter your bosses VAT number in a supply of goods transaction which is now winding its way through the EU VAT system and will at some point end up available to Irish Revenue. You had those good dispatched to presumably your address not the address that VAT number is linked to. Used presumably your bank account also. Sure how could anyone trace that back.

This is blatent tax evasion which is a criminal offence in Ireland and you’ve involved your boss.

Deagol

baalad wrote: »

Myself and my boss are on very good terms. Ill explain to him and if its at any cost to himself then ill happily pay it.

You mean you were on very good terms? I'm not sure that will be the case now that you've made him an accessory to tax fraud.

The only time I have heard of something similar is I know of cases of Motocross bikes being bought brand new in NI and people using VAT numbers of business in ROI that would have absolutely no reason to need a Motocross bike.

From memory these were brand new bikes and the vat was deducted at time of sale and the company was never questioned about this ever. I have heard of multiple cases of people doing this so it's definitely done but with the permission of the company owner and is clearly VAT fraud.

You might want to be thinking up a very good reason to tell your boss and I would be doing it asap, you might find you are not on as good terms as your thought.

baalad

Deagol wrote: »

You mean you were on very good terms? I'm not sure that will be the case now that you've made him an accessory to tax fraud.

Fair enough but how can he be involved when anyone could of done what i did? I could easily use another companies vat number...... how does that make them compliant??

At the end of the day. Nobody is hurt, Nobody was murdered. I don't see what the big deal is.

If he is liable to any charges as a result of this then i will pay them! I doubt meself and the boss are gonna do jail time lol

mickuhaha

baalad wrote: »

Fair enough but how can he be involved when anyone could of done what i did? I could easily use another companies vat number...... how does that make them compliant??

At the end of the day. Nobody is hurt, Nobody was murdered. I don't see what the big deal is.

If he is liable to any charges as a result of this then i will pay them! I doubt meself and the boss are gonna do jail time lol

No but if revenue think that your boss is trying to avoid tax they will inspect his books, something he might not thank you for.

baalad

Kyree Bewildered Viewfinder wrote: »

The only time I have heard of something similar is I know of cases of Motocross bikes being bought brand new in NI and people using VAT numbers of business in ROI that would have absolutely no reason to need a Motocross bike.

From memory these were brand new bikes and the vat was deducted at time of sale and the company was never questioned about this ever. I have heard of multiple cases of people doing this so it's definitely done but with the permission of the company owner and is clearly VAT fraud.

You might want to be thinking up a very good reason to tell your boss and I would be doing it asap, you might find you are not on as good terms as your thought.

Ill speak with him! How does the process work though? For example how does it come to his attention that a product was purchased using his vat number ? I can see it being a red flag if someone was using a vat number illegally on the regular but a once off would hardly come back to him? If so, how?

Effects

baalad wrote: »

At the end of the day. Nobody is hurt, Nobody was murdered. I don't see what the big deal is.

If he is liable to any charges as a result of this then i will pay them! I doubt meself and the boss are gonna do jail time lol

Nobody was hurt, but you are avoiding tax, which isn't legal.

No jail time, but you and your boss could be fined over it.

baalad

mickuhaha wrote: »

No but if revenue think that your boss is trying to avoid tax they will inspect his books, something he might not thank you for.

If the product was bought for business use then it would be ok right? Couldnt he just say that it was for business use?

Stratvs

baalad wrote: »

If the product was bought for business use then it would be ok right? Couldnt he just say that it was for business use?

Any answer to this is further condoning what is already blatant tax evasion so at this point I’m out. Have a good weekend.

baalad

Effects wrote: »

Nobody was hurt, but you are avoiding tax, which isn't legal.

No jail time, but you and your boss could be fined over it.

Iam pretty sure my boss has often ordered stuff for personal use but used his vat number to save money. How can it be proved its not for business use?? From what i have read elsewhere online it seems that this is common enough and rarely does it come back to you unless you abuse it and do it regularly

jimmycrackcorm

Stratvs wrote:

So what you’ve done is enter your bosses VAT number in a supply of goods transaction which is now winding its way through the EU VAT system and will at some point end up available to Irish Revenue. You had those good dispatched to presumably your address not the address that VAT number is linked to. Used presumably your bank account also. Sure how could anyone trace that back.

The only checks done are if the vat number is valid. There is rarely a detailed check into individual transactions to see if they are actually going to the business that holds the vat number. They only picture in suspected large scale vat fraud cases which are few and far between. The only one I head of was done company doing this with microchips or the like. An employee could validly order an item and pay for it for business use by getting it vat excluded and reclaim the non vat expense amount from his employer.

It's no different than if the boys orders something via his company and instead of using it for the company, had intended it for personal use.

Irishphotodesk

baalad wrote: »

Fair enough but how can he be involved when anyone could of done what i did? I could easily use another companies vat number...... how does that make them compliant??

At the end of the day. Nobody is hurt, Nobody was murdered. I don't see what the big deal is.

If he is liable to any charges as a result of this then i will pay them! I doubt meself and the boss are gonna do jail time lol

I'm sure Mr begley thought the same when he was importing garlic and having it shipped as apples (if my memory is correct) , so they company were still paying tax, just the lower rate.

Happy4all

It's fraud. Revenue have more powers the the Gardai.


Boards could be asked to pass your IP address to Revenue. Good luck.

mickuhaha

baalad wrote: »

If the product was bought for business use then it would be ok right? Couldnt he just say that it was for business use?

Sure but if revenue inspect his books and disagree with some of the claims he is putting in the business as expenses he will end up paying more tax and revenue won't just do one years records if they think something is up they can go back as far as they want. I know a person who had a business selling clothing for a number of years and didn't declare all the trading. Stopped trading a few years and went into a new area of business. The new business made a lot of money fast and revenue decided to inspect the books. New business all spot on, caught the gaps in the previous business and was on the hook for over 250000. I don't think your going to agree to pay that back.

baalad

Happy4all wrote: »

It's fraud. Revenue have more powers the the Gardai.


Boards could be asked to pass your IP address to Revenue. Good luck.

I posted here to seek advice because i didn't understand how it works etc I didnt post here for help on how to avoid tax etc

Iam more the wiser now and i wont be doing it again! As i said. Nobody was murdered. I saved a few euro god forbid. Ill pay back any costs that are owed to revenue when it comes to it

nuckeythompson

baalad wrote: »

Iam pretty sure my boss has often ordered stuff for personal use but used his vat number to save money. How can it be proved its not for business use?? From what i have read elsewhere online it seems that this is common enough and rarely does it come back to you unless you abuse it and do it regularly

You will have to prove its required for work purposes which will be difficult when not paid for by the business and delivered to your home.

You will end up paying the VAT plus a fine and which afaik will prob cost you in the region of 3k and your boss will end up having his accounts looked at by revenue.
Your above post says what a ***** you are. If your boss orders stuff for himself for his personal use thats his business and Im sure he is selective in how he does it too.
Speak to your boss ASAP , otherwise contact the website and pay the VAT and insist the VAT number is removed form the sale.

Really stupid idea , maybe your just immature but you dont F*** with revenue. You will end up paying big time

baalad

baalad wrote: »

Ill speak with him! How does the process work though? For example how does it come to his attention that a product was purchased using his vat number ? I can see it being a red flag if someone was using a vat number illegally on the regular but a once off would hardly come back to him? If so, how?

Mate try to cancel what you have ordered right now, I would be on the phone to the company like now.

If it's already been shipped tell them it was ordered incorrectly and try to return it. Best case the order can be cancelled and say nothing to your boss.

As has been said your boses books could be gone through with a fine tooth comb by revenue, you have put him and his family's livelihood at risk.

Cancel the order if you can and say nothing to him.

baalad

mickuhaha wrote: »

Sure but if revenue inspect his books and disagree with some of the claims he is putting in the business as expenses he will end up paying more tax and revenue won't just do one years records if they think something is up they can go back as far as they want. I know a person who had a business selling clothing for a number of years and didn't declare all the trading. Stopped trading a few years and went into a new area of business. The new business made a lot of money fast and revenue decided to inspect the books. New business all spot on, caught the gaps in the previous business and was on the hook for over 250000. I don't think your going to agree to pay that back.

Of course not. Why on earth would i be liable for any wrong doings my boss has done? Iam responsible for myself not him

baalad

Kyree Bewildered Viewfinder wrote: »

Mate try to cancel what you have ordered right now, I would be on the phone to the company like now.

If it's already been shipped tell them it was ordered incorrectly and try to return it. Best case the order can be cancelled and say nothing to your boss.

Item was already shipped!

baalad

baalad wrote: »

Item was already shipped!

Ring them now and ask can it be returned for a full refund, ask can the shipping company be contacted to return the delivery before you sign for it.

mickuhaha

baalad wrote: »

Of course not. Why on earth would i be liable for any wrong doings my boss has done? Iam responsible for myself not him

True but I would guess if it got to that amount he wouldn't be your boss anymore.

baalad

nuckeythompson wrote: »

You will have to prove its required for work purposes which will be difficult when not paid for by the business and delivered to your home.

You will end up paying the VAT plus a fine and which afaik will prob cost you in the region of 3k and your boss will end up having his accounts looked at by revenue.
Your above post says what a ***** you are. If your boss orders stuff for himself for his personal use thats his business and Im sure he is selective in how he does it too.
Speak to your boss ASAP , otherwise contact the website and pay the VAT and insist the VAT number is removed form the sale.

Really stupid idea , maybe your just immature but you dont F*** with revenue. You will end up paying big time

Your talking as if revenue are the ****in mafia. Relax man. Theres no guarantee revenue will even pick up on this! I saved around 800 euro to be exact. Ya'd swear i was after robbing about 10 grand

baalad

Kyree Bewildered Viewfinder wrote: »

Ring them now and ask can it be returned for a full refund, ask can the shipping company be contacted to return the delivery before you sign for it.

I dont want to return it. Ill contact them and ask them to charge me the vat and remove the vat number from the sale if thats possible

Irishphotodesk

baalad wrote: »

I posted here to seek advice because i didn't understand how it works etc I didnt post here for help on how to avoid tax etc

Iam more the wiser now and i wont be doing it again! As i said. Nobody was murdered. I saved a few euro god forbid. Ill pay back any costs that are owed to revenue when it comes to it

I'm sorry but please stop using the "nobody was murdered" line.

It may be true that no one was murdered but ... Just because you don't see a victim doesn't mean there isn't one.

Do you take the same attitude towards shoplifting and other crimes ? Do you drive through red lights when it suits you ... But shur, nobody was murdered !

Have a Google for white collar crime and see if there was anyone murdered ? The answer is no, bit they are still crimes and many people have gone to jail and been fined.

baalad

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

I'm sorry but please stop using the "nobody was murdered" line.

It may be true that no one was murdered but ... Just because you don't see a victim doesn't mean there isn't one.

Do you take the same attitude towards shoplifting and other crimes ? Do you drive through red lights when it suits you ... But shur, nobody was murdered !

Have a Google for white collar crime and see if there was anyone murdered ? The answer is no, bit they are still crimes and many people have gone to jail and been fined.

I understand the point your making. Iam just pointing out that most people are reacting as if i have done something terrible. None of us are saints. Iam sure you all done alot worse in your lifes then avoiding vat

baalad

baalad wrote: »

I understand the point your making. Iam just pointing out that most people are reacting as if i have done something terrible. None of us are saints. Iam sure you all done alot worse in your lifes then avoiding vat

You didn't avoid it, you evaded paying tax and you also committed fraud in the act. You don't seem too bothered though so not sure why you really asked for an opinion on it tbh

nuckeythompson

baalad wrote: »

Your talking as if revenue are the ****in mafia. Relax man. Theres no guarantee revenue will even pick up on this! I saved around 800 euro to be exact. Ya'd swear i was after robbing about 10 grand

OK so you are immature - you dont f*** with revenue because they can financially destroy you. I suggest you read www.revenue.ie and take a look at the tax default list - you will probably end up on it and with your attitude you deserve to be. Look at the VAT section .
Regarding your statement -
Of course not. Why on earth would i be liable for any wrong doings my boss has done? Iam responsible for myself not him
Your bringing revenue to his door - i would be sacking your ass if I were your boss

Risteard

Interesting to see a real world example of the "rationalisation" portion of the fraud triangle. :pac:

atilladehun

I think you're not understanding how serious revenue take this. They don't chase murderers the fine people very heavily to ensure they don't have to chase this crap in every company in the country. It's in their interest to make this not in your interest.

In the company I work for we buy a lot of small things that would seem very inconsequential like cheap electronics. When the auditor comes in we all still need to display it to them so they can verify the vat claim. I'm talking small money here. But I suppose it all adds up and paints a picture of compliance.

The record of sale is going to be available to revenue and won't match your bosses return next year. Revenue will investigate his whole business and fine him.

Cancel/return the item is the best way to fix your mistake.

What is the website? Care to share a link, OP?


Could be just a discount that they offer anyway (like Right Price Tiles and their "VAT Free Sales" kinda thing?)

Godeatsboogers

These are the people who get their cut of your pay cheque before you get yours, and you think they're going to be cool about this? Ha! Theres a chance no one will find out but if theres a large change in your bosses returns because of the non payment of this V.A.T, itll probably be investigated.

Jim2007

baalad wrote: »

I understand the point your making. Iam just pointing out that most people are reacting as if i have done something terrible. None of us are saints. Iam sure you all done alot worse in your lifes then avoiding vat[/QUOTE]


This is the same carp you regularly hear from people when they get caught and yes I have caught people - one ended up in Limerick jail.


And no most people do not go around doing crimes as you seem to think. In my experience most people are decent law abiding individuals. They also tend to have no qualms about shopping people when asked directly.


It's not just a question of telling your boss and paying the VAT and it will be fine. If it comes to the attention of the Revenue, his business will be flagged up as a doubtful one, mean everything he submits may be questioned, additional inspections etc... all costing time and money.


The Revenue are well aware of the temptation to use VAT numbers for personal gain and have techniques in place to detect this. Especially if the company in question is not a major importer.


You have committed a crime, whether you're in the clear or not remains to be seen over the next four or five years.

baalad

Ok clearly this is more serious then i originally thought so i have contacted the company and asked if its possible that i can pay the additional 700 euro in vat once i receive the product (as its already dispatched) and if they can then remove the vat number etc

I didnt realise what i was getting myself into and i apologise to anyone who thinks my attitude is wrong in relation to this. Iam trying to rectify it

baalad

Deleted User wrote: »

What is the website? Care to share a link, OP?


Could be just a discount that they offer anyway (like Right Price Tiles and their "VAT Free Sales" kinda thing?)

No they specifically ask for your vat number in order to pay for the product ex vat

baalad

Why is this so incredibly easy to do for anyone btw??? I mean literally anyone can just pop in the vat number like its a discount code and save money?? Why do some websites allow this? I personally always thought vat must be paid up front and then reclaimed later

Deagol

baalad wrote: »

additional 700 euro in vat

I saved around 800 euro to be exact.

I managed to save almost 1000 euro doing this

Which is it??

baalad

Deagol wrote: »

Which is it??

Its somewhere in the middle. I paid in pounds hence why iam not 100% but its somewhere between 700-800 in euros

Anyways iam in the process of trying to rectify this so i wont be commenting any further!

Appreciate all the comments and this was for sure an eye opener!

atilladehun

Fair play for seeing sense. It's understandable to get very excited when you think you've made a big cash saving.

It's easy because there are billions of transactions each year. Some are business to consumer and some are business to business. Making business to business transactions easy is beneficial to a country. Cashflow is really important for all businesses, big and small. Governments do things to support that. In return they expect strict compliance. If they get compliance then great, everyone benefits

If they find down the line a business has cheated they will punish severely along side repayments to ensure others don't consider it.

I'd imagine the vendor may not accept your request so don't open your package when you get it just in case. You may have to return it. What they may do is make a whole new sale full price and refund the original.

baalad

atilladehun wrote: »

Fair play for seeing sense. It's understandable to get very excited when you think you've made a big cash saving.

It's easy because there are billions of transactions each year. Some are business to consumer and some are business to business. Making business to business transactions easy is beneficial to a country. Cashflow is really important for all businesses, big and small. Governments do things to support that. In return they expect strict compliance. If they get compliance then great, everyone benefits

If they find down the line a business has cheated they will punish severely along side repayments to ensure others don't consider it.

I'd imagine the vendor may not accept your request so don't open your package when you get it just in case. You may have to return it. What they may do is make a whole new sale full price and refund the original.

Nightmare having to return it as its a big item. Ideally if i could pay the difference or pay for the item in full and then they could issue a refund maybe. Only problem is i dont have the cash to pay in full right now. Ill see what solution they can come up with.

Honestly had no idea what i was doing. Just chanced my arm and it was too hard to say no when i saw the savings. Lesson learnt

baalad

The product i ordered is a product the shop (whos vat number i used) sell. Is it possible the shop could take responsibility for the purchase and then i pay the shop inc vat?? this way i dont have to return the product etc

Is this a solution?

baalad

baalad wrote: »

The product i ordered is a product the shop (whos vat number i used) sell. Is it possible the shop could take responsibility for the purchase and then i pay the shop inc vat?? this way i dont have to return the product etc

Is this a solution?

I wouldn't say so. You'd need to bring it to your employers attention to organise a deal like that. Considering this is gross misconduct, I wouldn't expect to continue working there for long. Also I see in another thread you mention you've been temporarily laid off due to COVID. The company might not have the spare cash to bail you out.