Are you adhering to the Households rule?

SusieBlue

PintOfView wrote: »

I grant you the North and border etc. does make it more difficult. It's regrettable that one half of the population up there can't see that a common approach would be a win/win for both North & South.

Re the quarantining, I can see that the government might not have the will, but as to resources, we've got a lot of people out of work, would we not be able to pay some of those people a bit on top of the pup to help monitor quarantining?

Presumably for the same reason they won’t hire those people to work doing the contact tracing.
If the contact tracing system is collapsing due to the sheer amount of work I don’t see why they aren’t hiring some of the many people out of work due to the lockdowns.
They’re also claiming that hospitals are understaffed and under severe pressure, yet they didn’t end up hiring the vast majority of the Irish healthcare workers who came home from abroad to help with the pandemic back in March.
Too much red tape and not enough will from the government. None of which is the fault of the people.

acequion

PintOfView wrote: »

I agree the border with the North complicates things, and ideally we would have an all island approach. However the North was, and I think still is, 4 time worse that the South as regards cases and deaths, etc. So what we do down here does make a difference to the outcome.

On the EU front, are you saying that it would be unacceptable to insist on people quarantining for two weeks upon arrival in Ireland, and is that because the EU would not want us doing that, or for some other reason?

SusieBlue already answered this for me.

However, re the EU, I don't agree with mandatory quarantine. I do agree with testing, though it's expensive and I'd be ok with a vaccination certificate if all goes ok with the vaccines.

What a lot of people are very quick to forget is that there are thousands of people living in Ireland, both Irish and European, with close ties in other countries. Family ties, business, study, property. Not to mention how tourism and aviation depend on the connectivity. We Irish were very quick to boast and gloat about what good Europeans we were in good times as we glared disapprovingly at our British neighbours. But now in bad times we want to pull up the drawbridge and go back to our island ways!

growleaves

D9Male wrote: »

Time and time again, I hear/read this argument.


I am not sure who predicted 100k deaths. I never saw anything like this. But even if someone in authority did predict a high level of deaths, the prediction would have been if we did nothing by way of restrictions.

"Loads will die unless we lockdown."

....

(Lockdown)

....

Loads don't die.

There were official predictions of deaths of 85,000 to 120,000.

Sorry but all you have is a scenario of death averted not a proof that 100k would have died without lockdowns.

A group of European scientists predicted that 100k would die in Sweden without lockdown. That prediction was out by 95% or thereabouts (don't have exact figures to hand)

'In Lockdown We Trust' is a foolish religion. I don't get the appeal at all.

PintOfView

acequion wrote: »

However, re the EU, I don't agree with mandatory quarantine. I do agree with testing, though it's expensive and I'd be ok with a vaccination certificate if all goes ok with the vaccines.

Are you saying then that quarantining should be up to the discretion of the arriving visitors? and are you ok with those people who exercise their discretion and don't quarantine?
If we all sacrifice and succeed in bringing down the virus levels is it ok for a percentage of arriving visitors to ignore the quarantine and possibly contribute to seeding the next surge?

jrosen

4962 cases.

I am lost for words.

Stateofyou

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

The alternative is we open up and get back to normal immediately. The death rate from this virus is 0.03%.
Where are the 100000 deaths? We have had 2000+ deaths. The predictions were 98% wrong.
Jobs and businesses and the economy is being destroyed. Kids and students are having their education ruined. We are tens of billions of euro in debt. Suicides are sky rocketing and we face a mental health catastrophe due to loneliness depression and despair.
Anyone who wears masks distances washes their hands will be doing it in a tent in the rain in a year's time as houses are repossessed by the banks and renters are thrown out on the street.
We have been taken over by fear panic hysteria with the blind leading the blind into a ditch.

What part of overwhelming the hospital systems do people not get? Death rate isn't everything.

xhomelezz

growleaves wrote: »

There were official predictions of deaths of 85,000 to 120,000.

Sorry but all you have is a scenario of death averted not a proof that 100k would have died without lockdowns.

A group of European scientists predicted that 100k would die in Sweden without lockdown. That prediction was out by 95% or thereabouts (don't have exact figures to hand)

'In Lockdown We Trust' is a foolish religion. I don't get the appeal at all.

It's not a religion, seems like the only answer we have at the moment. Limiting as many social contacts as possible limits the spread. As we know now, we can't get 100% or anywhere close to it compliance with basic guidelines how to limit spread. Zero covid approach is a dirty word, because there's too many excuses made before even trying. So lockdowns are the only thing which works to some point at the moment. Unless of course you hiding some solution up in your sleeve.

PintOfView

growleaves wrote: »

There were official predictions of deaths of 85,000 to 120,000.

120,000 deaths would represent about 3% of the population.
I think last Feb / Mar they were saying that the mortality rate was about 1-3%, so that figure of 120,000 was possibly mentioned as the number of deaths we could expect if the total population of the South (approx 4 million) got it.
To find out the actual death rate we need to compare 2,000 deaths to the number of people who actually got Covid.
I don't know that number but it can't be very high in view of how fast the numbers are growing this past week or two
(assuming that people who got it wouldn't get it again for at least 6 months or a year).

If you doubt the mortality rate take a look at the US CDC web site that shows the number of deaths (from all causes) per week for the past few years
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
The increase above the expected weekly mortality since last March appears to me to show that Covid should be taken seriously?

acequion

PintOfView wrote: »

Are you saying then that quarantining should be up to the discretion of the arriving visitors? and are you ok with those people who exercise their discretion and don't quarantine?
If we all sacrifice and succeed in bringing down the virus levels is it ok for a percentage of arriving visitors to ignore the quarantine and possibly contribute to seeding the next surge?

You conveniently ignored my main point about how the EU has interconnected many thousands of Europeans.

Where I differ from you is that I don't see EU citizens as "visitors." And in any case it's not my view, it's the basic principle of the EU. Freedom of peoples and movements. So it's not a case of them and us as it appears to be for you and all those simplistically wanting our borders closed.

Go back and read my post. But I'll state my point again. I don't agree with mandatory quarantine but I do agree with mandatory testing plus mandatory vaccination certificates for those who wish to move around the EU.

PintOfView

acequion wrote: »

You conveniently ignored my main point about how the EU has interconnected many thousands of Europeans.

Where I differ from you is that I don't see EU citizens as "visitors." And in any case it's not my view, it's the basic principle of the EU. Freedom of peoples and movements. So it's not a case of them and us as it appears to be for you and all those simplistically wanting our borders closed.

Go back and read my post. But I'll state my point again. I don't agree with mandatory quarantine but I do agree with mandatory testing plus mandatory vaccination certificates for those who wish to move around the EU.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I am not anti EU, far from it, however I would see quarantining as a temporary and useful tool to reduce the risk, and no different to Australia quarantining visitors who cross state lines
https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-australia/australias-western-state-removes-quarantine-requirements-for-more-travellers-idINKBN28I0HI

acequion

PintOfView wrote: »

We'll have to agree to disagree. I am not anti EU, far from it, however I would see quarantining as a temporary and useful tool to reduce the risk, and no different to Australia quarantining visitors who cross state lines
https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-australia/australias-western-state-removes-quarantine-requirements-for-more-travellers-idINKBN28I0HI

I respect your views. And no problem with agreeing to disagree.

But from a civil rights perspective I feel that the Australians went too far with their mandatory quarantine. Being locked into a room without even being able to open a window seems a bit extreme imo. Plus, there was some monumental fcuk up in one of the quarantine hotels back in May which actually led to an outbreak. Seemingly not enough staff and staff not properly trained for such a facility. I don't have any link to hand but it can be googled as can several reports of these hotels.

bucketybuck

Some news headlines:

Irish hospitals at breaking point after unexpected early arrival of killer flu season
Minister for Health, Simon Harris, has held an emergency meeting with HSE chiefs where he was told that half of all admissions at the country’s A&E rooms are down to the flu

Flu death toll rises as Ireland faces five more weeks in the danger zone
Hospitals across the country are creaking at the seams

See if you can guess the date...

xhomelezz

bucketybuck wrote: »

Some news headlines:





See if you can guess the date...

As in first article..It was unexpected..same as of now.. unexpected.

PintOfView

bucketybuck wrote: »

Some news headlines:


See if you can guess the date...

No offense but if you are suggesting that the same number of people are dying as would be expected then I'm not sure that is correct. See the following

https://www.thejournal.ie/factfind-factcheck-covid-19-deaths-numbers-5304598-Dec2020/

bucketybuck

PintOfView wrote: »

No offense but if you are suggesting that the same number of people are dying as would be expected then I'm not sure that is correct. See the following

No offense taken because that is not what I was suggesting.

Stateofyou wrote: »

What part of overwhelming the hospital systems do people not get? Death rate isn't everything.

end of the road

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

The alternative is we open up and get back to normal immediately. The death rate from this virus is 0.03%.
Where are the 100000 deaths? We have had 2000+ deaths. The predictions were 98% wrong.
Jobs and businesses and the economy is being destroyed. Kids and students are having their education ruined. We are tens of billions of euro in debt. Suicides are sky rocketing and we face a mental health catastrophe due to loneliness depression and despair.
Anyone who wears masks distances washes their hands will be doing it in a tent in the rain in a year's time as houses are repossessed by the banks and renters are thrown out on the street.
We have been taken over by fear panic hysteria with the blind leading the blind into a ditch.

we have had low deaths due to restrictions and other virus control and spread minimisation measures.
opening up and getting back to normal is unworkable because what it would be designed to achieve would not be deliverable over all as covid causes damage indirectly to a country especially when not controlled.
we know if uncontrolled death rates are huge thanks to america and a small few others.
the economy is actually not being destroyed, the vast majority of it, as in the high contributers are still going, whereas for the most part it is the low contributers such as pubs etc which are closed.
yes sadly some jobs have been lost but realistically that was really unpreventable, rampent uncontrolled covid 19 would have quite likely lead to them being lost eventually.
education is continuing as far as i'm aware.
we would have been in debt anyway due this in some way, it was likely unavoidable.
i haven't saw anything to show suicides are sky rocketing or that we are facing any sort of mental health catastrophe in real terms, mental health has been an issue for a long time before people woke up in relation to it.
people losing their homes have been a fact of life before covid, very sad for those involved but i would imagine that if i went through boards i would likely find that the most vocal who are using that as an argument against restrictions would be the most vocal in pre-covid times to say it was their own fault.

we have been taken over by the reality of what uncontrolled covid can do and we are minimising the damage, as that is all we can do, there is no fear panic hysteria apart from in the mind of the fact deniers.

end of the road

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

The death rate is only 0.03%.
How is this not registering with you?

it is registering with us that the death rate isn't what it could be, but it's also registering with us as to why it is at that rate.
you are making the mistake that many others have made, making the assumption that the current rate of deaths which are so due to the various measures taken, are the actual rate of deaths in an uncontrolled situation.

John O.Groats

jrosen wrote: »

4962 cases.

I am lost for words.

Expect that to be 6000 plus per day very soon.

dartboardio

Nope. Need to live alongside this virus not hide away from it, people's mental health is more important. I've still been visiting family and will continue to do so, along with still wearing mask outdoors, sanitizing regularly, etc.

I don't believe in the way the government are going about this, ( same as many people )


RIP to the people that died from/with covid.

I have travelled abroad a fair bit since last March, to 'high risk' areas for different reasons, and got several covid-19 tests, isolated several times just incase, and still not picked up a thing. It just makes you wonder. Lucky me I suppose.

end of the road

dartboardio wrote: »

Nope. Need to live alongside this virus not hide away from it, people's mental health is more important. I've still been visiting family and will continue to do so, along with still wearing mask outdoors, sanitizing regularly, etc.

I don't believe in the way the government are going about this, ( same as many people )


RIP to the people that died from/with covid.

I have travelled abroad a fair bit since last March, to 'high risk' areas for different reasons, and got several covid-19 tests, isolated several times just incase, and still not picked up a thing. It just makes you wonder. Lucky me I suppose.

you misunderstand the meaning of living alongside the virus as do a number of people.
living alongside the virus means restrictions and where and when appropriate, lock downs and minimising contacts as much as is possible.
living alongside the virus does not, and never did mean do whatever you like and then whinge when the consequences of that are greater restrictions, which is generally how this goes with the very vocal non-abiding minority.
i'm afraid mental health isn't more important then controlling the virus, mental health issues which are diagnosed by a qualified doctor, will be equal to it and i believe mental health services are operational, but it is not possible for it to be more important then a virus that as we can see, can spread ridiculously quickly.
you may not believe in how the government have to deal with this virus but that actually doesn't matter, as facts trump beliefs and the facts are the current approach is the only viable way to control the spread.

zerosugarbuzz

John O.Groats wrote: »

Expect that to be 6000 plus per day very soon.

What’s the problem if the death rates are so low?

end of the road

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

What’s the problem if the death rates are so low?

the death rate likely won't stay low, there will be knock on effects to others, and eventually we may end up on plenty of travel bann lists.
so i'm afraid getting case numbers down and back under control is necessary.

retalivity

dartboardio wrote: »

I have travelled abroad a fair bit since last March, to 'high risk' areas for different reasons, and got several covid-19 tests, isolated several times just incase, and still not picked up a thing. It just makes you wonder. Lucky me I suppose.

I was in 10-12 pubs in december, as well as 7-8 houses visiting/socialising. Have had 2 tests since dec 1st, the most results received yesterday. All negative. Not a word of anyone i was socialising with or anyone in a house i visited testing positive, no family reports of cases nor anything from the pub (a couple were local rural pubs where everyone knows everyone).
Lucky me too I guess, along with the hundred others i probably interacted with. Definitely makes you think.

zerosugarbuzz

end of the road wrote: »

the death rate likely won't stay low, there will be knock on effects to others, and eventually we may end up on plenty of travel bann lists.
so i'm afraid getting case numbers down and back under control is necessary.

Travel ban lists? Whose gone anywhere since last February?

cannotlogin

retalivity wrote: »

I was in 10-12 pubs in december, as well as 7-8 houses visiting/socialising.

Were you trying to catch it or what? What part of minimise your contacts didn't you understand?

You must be incredibly lucky.

Graham

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

What’s the problem if the death rates are so low?

I'll help get you started

1) death rates won't necessarily stay low if we overwhelm our hospitals
2) a significant number of 'recovered' people continue to suffer serious long term health issues

Paddygreen

end of the road wrote: »

you misunderstand the meaning of living alongside the virus as do a number of people.
living alongside the virus means restrictions and where and when appropriate, lock downs and minimising contacts as much as is possible.
living alongside the virus does not, and never did mean do whatever you like and then whinge when the consequences of that are greater restrictions, which is generally how this goes with the very vocal non-abiding minority.
i'm afraid claimed mental health isn't more important then controlling the virus, actual mental health which is diagnosed by a qualified doctor, will be equal to it and i believe mental health services are operational, but it is not possible for it to be more important then a virus that as we can see, can spread ridiculously quickly.
you may not believe in how the government have to deal with this virus but that actually doesn't matter, as facts trump beliefs and the facts are the current approach is the only viable way to control the spread.

The granny hugger spreader units out there need to be contained. Roscommon is the obvious choice as it is more or less a wasteland already, nothing left to loose. A facility could be set up for spreader unit containment, a bit of re-education while they are there, power point presentations, informational films presented by George Lee, mask etiquette, cake baking, intensive hand washing, bubble training, shunning, and social distancing. Got to get these loopers off the streets and into somewhere where we can rehabilitate them. We could lure them there with bags of Galahad.

retalivity

cannotlogin wrote: »

Were you trying to catch it or what? What part of minimise your contacts didn't you understand?

You must be incredibly lucky.

No, but after 8 months of minimising contacts, i said fcuk it, im going to the pub and going to meet friends and family as i had done next to nothing for most of the year except work and had nearly a month of hols to take.
I sanitised and washed my hands regularly, wore a mask when required, and shockingly did not get covid. And neither did anyone else that i am aware of in all the places i was in. I/we must be one in a million.

dartboardio

retalivity wrote: »

No, but after 8 months of minimising contacts, i said fcuk it, im going to the pub and going to meet friends and family as i had done next to nothing for most of the year except work and had nearly a month of hols to take.
I sanitised and washed my hands regularly, wore a mask when required, and shockingly did not get covid. And neither did anyone else that i am aware of in all the places i was in. I/we must be one in a million.

Yep, absolutely agree. And I'm the same, as above, I've travelled to several areas throughout this year that were deemed as 'high risk' yet have had multiple tests and not picked up a thing. Not had a text, not been a close contact. I just pity the vulnerable people who are getting scaremongered and terrified watching the news each day. probably afraid to come outside the door.

Graham

retalivity wrote: »

No, but after 8 months of minimising contacts, i said fcuk it, im going to the pub and going to meet friends and family as i had done next to nothing for most of the year except work and had nearly a month of hols to take.

After 8 months you'd probably earned the right to put your friends, family and community at risk.

Can't imagine how this thing keeps spreading.