Sean Kelly - list of victories

Chivito550

I keep reading that Sean Kelly has 193 professional victories.

However, this link says just 158:

https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/sean-kelly/overview/start

And this one says just 127:

https://www.cyclingranking.com/rider/3613/sean-kelly

Where can I find a list of all 193 wins?

And do his 4 Green Jersey wins count as race wins?

Wow second only to Merckx in terms of all time ranking based on the second link.

07Lapierre

Wikipedia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Kelly_(cyclist)?wprov=sfti1

Ceepo

Some if them results may have been Crits etc that might not be recorded is some list of stats.

Kelly has to the one of the greatest Irish sports person of all time. 5 times world no1, and 4 years in a row..
Absolutely a beast of a man.

I recall a programme on RTE in recent years about the greatest Irish sports person. Roche was mentioned and dismissed outright because yeah cycling and doping, Kelly never got a mention. Forget who the panel were , Dunphy maybe and some others?

He was and is the single most successful sportsman we've had on the international stage, but yeah Olé Olé Olé that one time we did well with the ball in Italy. There are others very worthy of recognition Katie Taylor, Sonia and other Olympic medallists but none have come close to Kelly's level of consistent success.

EDIT: Actually I'd rank our jockeys and trainers up there too among our most successful on the world stage.

harringtonp

It comes back to the same phenomena as the media looking up Bennetts overall standing after hearing he won a stage.

He never won the TDF and the fact that Roche did (along with the worlds and giro the same year) confuses matters even further.

Bit like my ould fellow hearing me going on about Sagan a few years back and then wondering why such a legend never seemed to be with Froome and Co on the big climbs.

For Irish sporting comparisons you can't really compare individuals with team members so a comparison with O'Driscoll or Keane for example doesn't make sense.

But you can compare with other individuals

Chivito550

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I recall a programme on RTE in recent years about the greatest Irish sports person. Roche was mentioned and dismissed outright because yeah cycling and doping, Kelly never got a mention. Forget who the panel were , Dunphy maybe and some others?

He was and is the single most successful sportsman we've had on the international stage, but yeah Olé Olé Olé that one time we did well with the ball in Italy. There are others very worthy of recognition Katie Taylor, Sonia and other Olympic medallists but none have come close to Kelly's level of consistent success.

EDIT: Actually I'd rank our jockeys and trainers up there too among our most successful on the world stage.

Sonia is absolutely on the level of Kelly. She dominated her discipline in 1993, 1994 and 1995, not dissimilar to how dominant Kelly was. She was dominant in probably the most accessible discipline in the world - distance running.

Like Kelly, she had a very long career. She won her first major medals at World University Games in 1991, and 13 years later, she was 4th at the World Half Marathon Championships.

Throughout those 13 years she won 16 major championship medals. She set a European record over 3000m, a World Record over 2000m, and a whole host of world leading times.

In 1995, she won 19 of her 20 races. She was so dominant people started taking her for granted. I'm not sure she was appreciated the way she should have been. We will never see her likes in athletics again.

^ This from me as someone who was running and following the sport in them days is inexcusable

And like cycling you really had to go out of your way to follow it throughout the year. God bless Eurosport there then and now in terms of both sports.

Chivito550

[Deleted User] wrote: »

^ This from me as someone who was running and following the sport in them days is inexcusable

And like cycling you really had to go out of your way to follow it throughout the year. God bless Eurosport there then and now in terms of both sports.

RTE used to show the old Golden Four Grand Prix meets in the mid 90s, simply because of Sonia. Now RTE don't even show the World Championships!

Chivito550

Chivito550 wrote: »

RTE used to show the old Golden Four Grand Prix meets in the mid 90s, simply because of Sonia. Now RTE don't even show the World Championships!

Did they actually get gold bars as prizes at those ?

Chivito550

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Did they actually get gold bars as prizes at those ?

If you won all 4 in the one year you got a gold bar. Sonia won all 4 one of the years.

Roadtoad

The Chairman of the Boards deserves a shoutout on this thread too.

Buzwaldo

Heard a story from a friend who was into his golf one year an event was on in Mt Juliet. Thursday or Friday he was standing by the ropes around where the drives were landing. Seve Ballesteros came up the fairway and spotted Kelly at the ropes. Came over and had a chat with him and told everybody who was there what a superstar they had in their midst, never mind following himself, this guy was a true hero.

Large bottle small glass

Chivito550 wrote: »

RTE used to show the old Golden Four Grand Prix meets in the mid 90s, simply because of Sonia. Now RTE don't even show the World Championships!

Was Sonia effectively World Champion in 1500 and 3000 in 93? 4th to 3 Chinese in one and 2nd to another Chinese in the other

Always struck me as a lovely person, shy even.

Sean Treacy had a great career also.

Kelly greatness is better appreciated by your average Belgian/French/Italian person than in his home country.

The coverage on Newstalk of Bennets green jersey was the day after some golfing major. The cycling they had to talk about, the golf they wanted to talk about.

Dan Martins 4th overall and stage win is a great achievement. Considering he had no team support it is arguably a better achievement than Bennets. It won't get a mention in the sportsperson of the year awards

Chivito550

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

Was Sonia effectively World Champion in 1500 and 3000 in 93? 4th to 3 Chinese in one and 2nd to another Chinese in the other

Always struck me as a lovely person, shy even.

Sean Treacy had a great career also.

Kelly greatness is better appreciated by your average Belgian/French/Italian person than in his home country.

The coverage on Newstalk of Bennets green jersey was the day after some golfing major. The cycling they had to talk about, the golf they wanted to talk about.

Dan Martins 4th overall and stage win is a great achievement. Considering he had no team support it is arguably a better achievement than Bennets. It won't get a mention in the sportsperson of the year awards

Yep, she was 4th in 3000m and 2nd in 1500m at 93 Worlds behind doped Chinese athletes. She should have had 2 gold medals.

redlead

People in Ireland don't have a clue how great Kelly was. One of the greatest of all time in a global sport and Newstalk didn't think he warranted a top 4 from Waterford because aren't all cyclists on drugs. It's subjective but he's Irelands greatest ever athlete in my opinion. I think a big part of it is that while sports like running and cycling are super popular participation sports, most people that do them aren't interested in them to compete in races etc and so the numbers don't translate to interest in the professional sports as much.

Speak Now

redlead wrote: »

People in Ireland don't have a clue how great Kelly was. One of the greatest of all time in a global sport and Newstalk didn't think he warranted a top 4 from Waterford because aren't all cyclists on drugs. It's subjective but he's Irelands greatest ever athlete in my opinion. I think a big part of it is that while sports like running and cycling are super popular participation sports, most people that do them aren't interested in them to compete in races etc and so the numbers don't translate to interest in the professional sports as much.

In the summer Waterford local radio voted John O'Shea as the country's greatest sportsman.

Bewildering for a county that has Sean Kelly and John Tracey.

blue note

In terms of recognition for Kelly it just comes down to how much drugs is too much drugs. From outside of the world of cycling if you ignore drugs, Michelle Smyth is possibly our greatest ever athlete. But she's completely dismissed because of her associations with drugs. People don't want to dismiss his achievements completely like they do michele Smyth, but at the same time they don't want to fully recognise him either because of that cloud over him.

It's different in the world of cycling though. Because everyone was doping, if you ignore the dopers you're basically missing decades of cycling history. So instead you have to block out the drugs from your mind when looking back.

I remember Kelly being 6th in Irelands greatest ever sportspeople a few years back and now he can't even get into waterfords top 4, even though there were no new revelations about him. It's mad how perceptions can change like that. I think for him to get that recognition back you need more exposes in other sports. If it was accepted that drugs were rampant in tennis, soccer, rugby, pretty much all professional sports, every sport would have to ignore the fact that most of their athletes were on drugs when looking back. Then Kelly would be one of our greatest sportspeople again.

Large bottle small glass

Speak Now wrote: »

In the summer Waterford local radio voted John O'Shea as the country's greatest sportsman.

Bewildering for a county that has Sean Kelly and John Tracey.

I'm from Waterford and I always thought O'Shea appeared a decent fellow, but Jaysus was he average.

Tracey was world class at middle distance, marathon and cross country. With all the advances in sports science his records at a few distances still stand. He stood out at time Irish running was enjoying a golden era.

There is a pretty wide gap between Tracey and Kelly to the rest.

Talent is one thing, the drive, commitment and all the other ingredients required for a long career at the very top are what mark the greats

happytramp

blue note wrote: »

In terms of recognition for Kelly it just comes down to how much drugs is too much drugs. From outside of the world of cycling if you ignore drugs, Michelle Smyth is possibly our greatest ever athlete. But she's completely dismissed because of her associations with drugs. People don't want to dismiss his achievements completely like they do michele Smyth, but at the same time they don't want to fully recognise him either because of that cloud over him.

It's different in the world of cycling though. Because everyone was doping, if you ignore the dopers you're basically missing decades of cycling history. So instead you have to block out the drugs from your mind when looking back.

I remember Kelly being 6th in Irelands greatest ever sportspeople a few years back and now he can't even get into waterfords top 4, even though there were no new revelations about him. It's mad how perceptions can change like that. I think for him to get that recognition back you need more exposes in other sports. If it was accepted that drugs were rampant in tennis, soccer, rugby, pretty much all professional sports, every sport would have to ignore the fact that most of their athletes were on drugs when looking back. Then Kelly would be one of our greatest sportspeople again.

I think part of it comes down to the increasingly youthful researchers and writers in the media.... A lot of them weren't even born when kelly and Roche were active.

magicbastarder

blue note wrote: »

People don't want to dismiss his achievements completely like they do michele Smyth

her achievements have not been dismissed in toto; if you look at the wikipedia page for irish swimming records, she still holds about half a dozen. something which rankled in the swimming community when the decision was taken (or lost? it might have been smith challenging a decision) which led to her records standing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_records_in_swimming

Chivito550

blue note wrote: »

In terms of recognition for Kelly it just comes down to how much drugs is too much drugs. From outside of the world of cycling if you ignore drugs, Michelle Smyth is possibly our greatest ever athlete. But she's completely dismissed because of her associations with drugs. People don't want to dismiss his achievements completely like they do michele Smyth, but at the same time they don't want to fully recognise him either because of that cloud over him.

It's different in the world of cycling though. Because everyone was doping, if you ignore the dopers you're basically missing decades of cycling history. So instead you have to block out the drugs from your mind when looking back.

I remember Kelly being 6th in Irelands greatest ever sportspeople a few years back and now he can't even get into waterfords top 4, even though there were no new revelations about him. It's mad how perceptions can change like that. I think for him to get that recognition back you need more exposes in other sports. If it was accepted that drugs were rampant in tennis, soccer, rugby, pretty much all professional sports, every sport would have to ignore the fact that most of their athletes were on drugs when looking back. Then Kelly would be one of our greatest sportspeople again.

It's a funny one. As somebody who is heavily involved in athletics, I absolutely detest drug cheats, and those who robbed Sonia O'Sullivan and Derval O'Rourke of medals. I have no time for Michelle Smith at all.

But at the same time I love Sean Kelly. It's almost like I have a separate set of criteria in cycling than I have in other sports. That said I detest Armstrong. Maybe I'm being a pure hypocrite.

Soccer, rugby, tennis and NFL are absolutely riddled with drugs, both now, and in the past. Sure Dr Fuentes said the cyclists take nothing in comparison to footballers. A lot of all-time greats in those sports doped, but we don't know about it, because they dont want us to know about it. And the few we do know about, the doping is glossed over (Maradona for example). The Spanish football team in 08 to 12 has the potential to be the biggest sporting scandal ever if the truth was allowed out.

Regarding the doping in cycling in the 80s and before, am I naive by saying that the doping was something that got you through the mountains, but the best guy still won, while in the 90s and 00s, the doping became so scientific and EPO was such a game changer and affected different cyclists in different ways, so the best guy no longer necessarily won?

I feel so conflicted. I detest doping, but I love Kelly, and in the context of cycling he's one of the greatest ever.

Wishbone Ash

Speak Now wrote: »

In the summer Waterford local radio voted John O'Shea as the country's greatest sportsman....

Country's or county's?

Speak Now wrote:

....Bewildering for a county that has Sean Kelly and John Tracey.

....and the legend that is John Mullane.

Doc07

Kelly should be in top 3 or at least top 5.
I’d have Harrington and Sonya with him and gladly defend that statement all day long.

Roche , Keane, Irwin, O’Driscoll, Eamon Coughlan and throw in a token jockey(I wouldn’t ) for the fight for remaining spots in top 5. Maybe a boxer or two might get in top 10.

Love Meath and a good GAA match but no GAA players ever getting in my top 10.

ozzy jr

I don't know much of Sean Kelly's doping history other than what's on Wikipedia, but you can't pick and choose your dopers. You can't be critical of the Chinese athletes denying Sonia Olympic medals, and then laud Sean Kellys achievement in the same thread.

magicbastarder

i hadn't known codeine was a banned substance till i read that. given (as mentioned earlier in the thread) o'driscoll's talk of necking painkillers like candy, what common painkillers are/are not verboten?

cletus

magicbastarder wrote: »

i hadn't known codeine was a banned substance till i read that. given (as mentioned earlier in the thread) o'driscoll's talk of necking painkillers like candy, what common painkillers are/are not verboten?

WADA are responsible for code compliance for sports body signatories, but each body is supposedly responsible for implementing the code in their sport

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/code-compliance

Regarding what's hot and what's not:

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/what-we-do/the-prohibited-list

Large bottle small glass

Doc07 wrote: »

Roche , Keane, Irwin, O’Driscoll, Eamon Coughlan and throw in a token jockey(I wouldn’t ) for the fight for remaining spots in top 5. Maybe a boxer or two might get in top 10

Brady and Pat O'Callaghan have to be on that list.

If there's extra points for being a rogue then Pat would be number 1.

Met him twice as a teenager, once while I waited for a lift to a rugby game. He saw bag and asked what I was doing. "Play every sport you can and enjoy it" was his reply.

I had meant him about 3 years previously when visiting my aunt in Portlaw. He was in town as a doctor for the local headmaster who was dying with cancer. He knocked on door looking to know where headmaster lived. On seeing me, being school age he thought he was on a winner.

"I don't know" I said.

"Is it a half wit you are?"

He then saw my aunt coming to door and she filled him in. I still got a curious glance as he left.

His exploits at sports meetings as a young man and his doctor's practice, particularly the care of the poor in Clonmel, are legendary

swarlb

As a young fella my father brought be to grass track meetings (Cycling) and to Cycling Polo in the Phoenix Park, as well as the last stage of The Tour or Ras.... I got my interest in cycling from him, and while there was zero accounts of cycling in local or national papers, I still managed to follow the exploits of what was going on in Europe. Even then, doping was hinted at, but you still followed the exploits of the 'champions'. When Kelly broke through I followed his progress, and must have dozens of papers and magazines of his races, never mind the various books.
When Kimmage started writing in various papers I thought to myself, 'At last, we might have some account of the 'new' Irish lads racing abroad'
But no... practically every article written by Kimmage has 'doping' as it's central theme. He simply cannot bring himself to even report on a race and name won won or lost, without resorting to 'doping' or some unrelated story about drugs.
Therefore in most people's mindset, ALL cyclists are druggies.
Professional cycling is a difficult enough sport for the average person to figure out, ie, the guy won won today, could finish last the next day, or the guy who wins overall might do so without winning a single stage, where the guy who won several stages might decide to pull out of the race....
The only analogy I tend to use is football...
It's a team sport... and some players who only come on for a few mins as a sub, will still get to share the prize at the end of a season.
I wouldn't blame RTE or Newtalk, they have a few minutes each day to fill a slot, so what can they say outside of the reality...
Bennett wins the stage today, and remains in last place overall..... it's the truth !

Wishbone Ash

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

....and Pat O'Callaghan have to be on that list.....

Yes, he won our first gold but It's difficult to compare athletes of his era with those of the more modern era. My first question when I hear of anyone winning a medal in the early years of the modern games is "How many entered?" - bearing in mind that a journalist covering the games won a medal in one of the athletics categories. (He saw that there were only one or two entries). Many competitors had to cover their own travel expenses back then restricting most entries to those from affluent backgrounds. And there's the whole area of 'qualifying' which wasn't really a thing then.

Chivito550

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Yes, he won our first gold but It's difficult to compare athletes of his era with those of the more modern era. My first question when I hear of anyone winning a medal in the early years of the modern games is "How many entered?" - bearing in mind that a journalist covering the games won a medal in one of the athletics categories. (He saw that there were only one or two entries). Many competitors had to cover their own travel expenses back then restricting most entries to those from affluent backgrounds. And there's the whole area of 'qualifying' which wasn't really a thing then.

Paavo Nurmi and Jessie Owens are considered all-time legends so it would be a bit unfair to disregard Pat O'Callaghan's achievements. The Olympics were long established by 1928 and 1932 anyway.