Sean Kelly - list of victories

Chivito550

Came across this article from 1998:

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/13/sports/IHT-exirish-racer-spurned-after-drug-revelations-cyclist-pays-for.html

I found this bit interesting:

To which Kimmage would reply: "The book was written to highlight the ambivalence of the authorities to the problem. They were the target. It wasn't the bike riders. The book wasn't written to portray those who do drugs as baddies and those who don't as goodies."

"Once the system addresses the problem and the guys keep taking stuff, they're no longer victims," he added. "That's when they become cheats."

"But the authorities haven't answered to the problem," Kimmage said, his face darkening even before he knew of the Festina scandal. "They have to, they can't keep ignoring it."

At what point did doping in the peleton become considered cheating? At what point did clean riders start speaking out? Could it be argued that in Kelly's day, it simply wasn't considered cheating but an unfortunate part of the sport that was just accepted? Is his legacy being retrospectively punished for not living up to today's standards, standards that weren't the expectations of his time? Is he being judged by standards that didn't exist when he competed?

I don't know how I feel on it, but it's thought provoking.

magicbastarder

this may not throw much light on the subject, but it's an interesting look into what is acceptable and not acceptable, based on a real case of someone who got in trouble for doing something which would generally be considered acceptable, versus what is technically allowed but just plain weird:

http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/35-the-standard-case

context is baseball; using HGH to recover from an injury is not allowed, but preemptive surgery to change how your arm actually works is OK

TheBlaaMan

An interesting segue between Sonia O'Sullivan and cycling is that she was selected for a place on the Munster team in the 2013 Rás na mBan and was training for the event but as far as I know she didnt actually take the start that year.

http://www.irishcycling.com/web/publish/ras-na-mban/Sonia_O_Sullivan_Selected_for_Munster_Squad_for_Ennis_Showdown.shtml

mousblaster17

Slightly orthogonal to the OPs question but I'm sharing this as I love watching this from time to time. It's a clip of the an post CRC team visiting king kelly's trophy room in 2014. So cool! Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi5Nsg_F_kU

mod note: embedded youtube video

Ceepo

mousblaster17 wrote: »

Slightly orthogonal to the OPs question but I'm sharing this as I love watching this from time to time. It's a clip of the an post CRC team visiting king kelly's trophy room in 2014. So cool! Enjoy.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hi5Nsg_F_kU

It would be interesting to see an updated version ... 100% it doesn't look like that now

Chivito550

Chivito550 wrote: »

Came across this article from 1998:

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/13/sports/IHT-exirish-racer-spurned-after-drug-revelations-cyclist-pays-for.html

I found this bit interesting:



At what point did doping in the peleton become considered cheating? At what point did clean riders start speaking out? Could it be argued that in Kelly's day, it simply wasn't considered cheating but an unfortunate part of the sport that was just accepted? Is his legacy being retrospectively punished for not living up to today's standards, standards that weren't the expectations of his time? Is he being judged by standards that didn't exist when he competed?

I don't know how I feel on it, but it's thought provoking.

Someone mentioned the example of I think Chelsea manager? mentioning an injection for a player during a media briefing, I assume cortisone and no one batting an eyelid yet who's to say this might one day be rightly called cheating too. IMO thats cheating today no matter what the rules say they can do.

mousblaster17

mousblaster17 wrote: »

Slightly orthogonal to the OPs question but I'm sharing this as I love watching this from time to time. It's a clip of the an post CRC team visiting king kelly's trophy room in 2014. So cool! Enjoy.

Few heads there now in world tour teams.

cletus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Someone mentioned the example of I think Chelsea manager? mentioning an injection for a player during a media briefing, I assume cortisone and no one batting an eyelid yet who's to say this might one day be rightly called cheating too. IMO thats cheating today no matter what the rules say they can do.

That's sort of a false equivalency. If it's within the rules, then it's not cheating, regardless of how you feel morally or ethically about it.

Is it the case that when Kelly took codeine it was acceptable within the rules, but they subsequently changed and now he's considered a cheat?

buffalo

TheBlaaMan wrote: »

An interesting segue between Sonia O'Sullivan and cycling is that she was selected for a place on the Munster team in the 2013 Rás na mBan and was training for the event but as far as I know she didnt actually take the start that year.

http://www.irishcycling.com/web/publish/ras-na-mban/Sonia_O_Sullivan_Selected_for_Munster_Squad_for_Ennis_Showdown.shtml

She started alright, and raced about half the stages IIRC. She came down in a crash too and got back on the bike - she wasn't some cameo diva, she was racing as hard as anyone. I can't remember why she had to pull out though.

CramCycle

Deleted User wrote: »

Someone mentioned the example of I think Chelsea manager? mentioning an injection for a player during a media briefing, I assume cortisone and no one batting an eyelid yet who's to say this might one day be rightly called cheating too. IMO thats cheating today no matter what the rules say they can do.

t was the team doctors infusing Drogba with Blood, basically blood bags. They claimed it was not essential but sped up recovery for a knee injury. it is the very definition of doping and wouldn't get allowed in most other sports.

Macy0161

ozzy jr wrote: »

I don't know much of Sean Kelly's doping history other than what's on Wikipedia, but you can't pick and choose your dopers. You can't be critical of the Chinese athletes denying Sonia Olympic medals, and then laud Sean Kellys achievement in the same thread.

In my view, you can. Context is everything. The big difference in Kelly's era was that whatever they took, it wasn't donkey's to race horse.

I don't think there's any doubt that Kelly would've had the similar achievements in a completely clean sport. You can't say the same for cycling or athletics (or field sports, now tactically based upon aerobic fitness) once EPO came on the scene.

greenspurs

i live 8km from Kellys birthplace, and where he lived.

He inspired me to get a racing bike, and made me leave my gold raleigh Burner, with the Mag wheels down.
I was in the same peloton at the annual Christmas Hamper race that we had in Carrick every year. Imagine "racing against" the likes of Kelly, Roche, Earley !! it was boyhood dreams stuff!

I remember i was out on a training spin one Sunday morning, heading towards Lemybrien from Carrick, underneath the Comeraghs. I see a cyclist coming against me, give the auld salute , and i see its King Kelly ...
I hesitated , will i or wont i... Fcuk it i will , So i did a u turn, and raced after him ....
Howya Sean ...
Ahh howya....

I congratulated him on winning the World cup (it was 1989) ... we chatted for about 30mins, and i was plucking up courage...
Just before he turned off for home, i did it .... "Hey Sean, any chance of your hat"
(it was one of the old school winter caps with the brim at the back that used to cover your ears) and it was a PDM one ...
" Ahhh no, shur tis the only one i have ...good luck"

And off he went....


Have met him numerous times at the Tour of Waterford, and on the Sunday morning spin with the "Carrick Crew".
The man is a living legend. My hero.

2 Wheels Good

Chivito550 wrote: »

Came across this article from 1998:

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/13/sports/IHT-exirish-racer-spurned-after-drug-revelations-cyclist-pays-for.html

I found this bit interesting:



At what point did doping in the peleton become considered cheating? At what point did clean riders start speaking out? Could it be argued that in Kelly's day, it simply wasn't considered cheating but an unfortunate part of the sport that was just accepted? Is his legacy being retrospectively punished for not living up to today's standards, standards that weren't the expectations of his time? Is he being judged by standards that didn't exist when he competed?

I don't know how I feel on it, but it's thought provoking.

General consensus is around 91/92 things changed, Lemond said suddenly guys who he'd drop on the climbs suddenly were dropping him with ease. Most of the drugs prior to that gave minute gains, once EPO arrived anyone could be a race horse, and by the time Lance and co arrived if you weren't on it you had no chance.

Macy0161

2 Wheels Good wrote: »

General consensus is around 91/92 things changed, Lemond said suddenly guys who he'd drop on the climbs suddenly were dropping him with ease. Most of the drugs prior to that gave minute gains, once EPO arrived anyone could be a race horse, and by the time Lance and co arrived if you weren't on it you had no chance.

Pretty sure I've heard him interviewed/ on a podcast saying that 91 he felt he was the best he'd ever been, yet he couldn't compete in the mountains. Obviously, that was before power meters, so probably limited stats to back that up. I'd say by then clean athletes could compete in individual stages, but GC was beyond them. And then we got things like Gewiss in the Ardennes...

breezy1985

The fact that "the next Sean Kelly" is still a widely used term across Europe says it all for me.

Although it's probably gonna be finally replaced by " the next Peter Sagan" comments.
As for Ireland's greatest him and Taylor stand out for me as two athletes that became international legends in their sport so it puts them ahead for me.
I'm sure there is probably some jockey or golf lad who has done it but personal bias could never let me put them anywhere near a list of top athletes

magicbastarder

it's quite simple. if you want to see 'is dennis taylor a better athlete than sean kelly?', you get sean kelly to race dennis taylor on a bike, and dennis taylor to play sean kelly at snooker and see where the biggest gap is.

breezy1985

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's quite simple. if you want to see 'is dennis taylor a better athlete than sean kelly?', you get sean kelly to race dennis taylor on a bike, and dennis taylor to play sean kelly at snooker and see where the biggest gap is.

Wasn't Pat Spillane in a TV show just like this in his playing days ?

Cape Clear

Can't believe nobody has mentioned international super star Pat Spillane yet until Breezy 1985

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZUJ_bV2eHk

cletus

breezy1985 wrote: »

...I'm sure there is probably some jockey or golf lad who has done it but personal bias could never let me put them anywhere near a list of top athletes

Isn't that the he problem though. Everyone want the person at the top of their sport to be in the greatest ever discussion, but most people are only vaguely aware of what achievements in other sports actually mean.

I didn't realise until recently the high regard the Sean Kelly is held in, he was just a fella who won some bike races when I was a kid

breezy1985

cletus wrote: »

Isn't that the he problem though. Everyone want the person at the top of their sport to be in the greatest ever discussion, but most people are only vaguely aware of what achievements in other sports actually mean.

I didn't realise until recently the high regard the Sean Kelly is held in, he was just a fella who won some bike races when I was a kid

That's why that quote started with the phrase personal bias which you have conveniently cut out

Edit: Ha no you didn't I just read my own words writing. Sorry bout that

magicbastarder

cletus wrote: »

Isn't that the he problem though. Everyone want the person at the top of their sport to be in the greatest ever discussion, but most people are only vaguely aware of what achievements in other sports actually mean.

okay, here's another way of looking at it; kelly was known for his versatility - won a grand tour, multiple one day monuments, could sprint, climb etc.

how many other athletes mentioned in this thread displayed such versatility? not meaning to take away from o'sullivan, but she was a long distance runner rather than 'a runner'.
though i guess, to be fair, to compare long distance running to sprinting is like comparing road racing to track racing.

cletus

magicbastarder wrote: »

okay, here's another way of looking at it; kelly was known for his versatility - wond a grand tour, multiple one day monuments, could sprint, climb etc.

how many other athletes mentioned in this thread displayed such versatility? not meaning to take away from o'sullivan, but she was a long distance runner rather than 'a runner'.
though i guess, to be fair, to compare long distance running to sprinting is like comparing road racing to track racing.

I'm not taking anything away from Kelly, I was just pointing out that I don't follow cycling, I don't understand the nuance of it, so for me he was "just a cyclist"

If you're deeply involved/passionate/whatever about a particular sport, I'm sure you can argue why "insert name" is the greatest ever, and why everyone else just a swimmer, just a runner, just a golfer, just a footballer

DonegalBay

cletus wrote: »

I'm not taking anything away from Kelly, I was just pointing out that I don't follow cycling, I don't understand the nuance of it, so for me he was "just a cyclist"

If you're deeply involveqd/passionate/whatever about a particular sport, I'm sure you can argue why "insert name" is the greatest ever, and why everyone else just a swimmer, just a runner, just a golfer, just a footballer

How many Irish sportspeople would rank in the Top 10 of all time in their respective sports? Because Kelly is frequently ranked in that bracket and not just here in Ireland, but in international circles. Katie Taylor, Roy Keane wouldnt come close, Sonia might if you narrow it down to just the 5000m. If you narrowed it down to the Classiscs for Kelly, he would be Top 5, maybe Top 3 of all-time.

cletus

Two examples off the top of my head. I've seen Rory McIlroy listed in the top 20 of all time golfers, and Katie Taylor is definitely top 10 female boxers of all time.

Again, this is not to denigrate Sean Kelly, just to show the inherent biases

breezy1985

cletus wrote: »

I'm not taking anything away from Kelly, I was just pointing out that I don't follow cycling, I don't understand the nuance of it, so for me he was "just a cyclist"

If you're deeply involved/passionate/whatever about a particular sport, I'm sure you can argue why "insert name" is the greatest ever, and why everyone else just a swimmer, just a runner, just a golfer, just a footballer

Not just a cyclist he was also a farmer a bricklayer and possibly the record holder when it comes to commentators who say the least amount of words possible in an event.

He is also famous for doing a radio interview where he only relplies with mods and shakes of the head and not on purpose

Cape Clear

breezy1985 wrote: »

Not just a cyclist he was also a farmer a bricklayer and possibly the record holder when it comes to commentators who say the least amount of words possible in an event.

He is also famous for doing a radio interview where he only relplies with mods and shakes of the head and not on purpose

Also courted by the PD's to be a election candidate at one point I believe.

breezy1985

Cape Clear wrote: »

Also courted by the PD's to be a election candidate at one point I believe.

Surely green is his natural colour

Chivito550

magicbastarder wrote: »

okay, here's another way of looking at it; kelly was known for his versatility - won a grand tour, multiple one day monuments, could sprint, climb etc.

how many other athletes mentioned in this thread displayed such versatility? not meaning to take away from o'sullivan, but she was a long distance runner rather than 'a runner'.
though i guess, to be fair, to compare long distance running to sprinting is like comparing road racing to track racing.

Sonia won major medals at 1500m, 3000m, 5000m, 10000m, was world class in the half marathon, and formerly held the Irish record over 800m and 1000m even though she never trained for them. Her range is incredible.

Sprinting in cycling isn't like sprinting in athletics. No distance runner can be proficient at 100m. It's not possible. Sonia had an explosive finishing kick which is closest equivalent to a cycling sprinter.

If you want to make direct comparisons, then the track cycling sprint is closest equivalent to 100m, which Kelly didn't excel in.

breezy1985

Chivito550 wrote: »

Sprinting in cycling isn't like sprinting in athletics. No distance runner can be proficient at 100m. It's not possible. Sonia had an explosive finishing kick which is closest equivalent to a cycling sprinter.

Pretty similar really I mean GC guys would never win a sprint in cycling either

greenspurs

I cant believe people are comparing a cyclist with a mid distance runner !?

Apples and oranges .......