Sean Kelly - list of victories

Macy0161

breezy1985 wrote: »

Bardet joined the French army to get on their pro cycling team so he could afford to ride and Pinot is a pure bogger with his own farm to look after on the off days. Wiggins is working class and Sam Bennetts dad was a low league soccer player in Belgium and former Waterford United manager. And Peter Sagan won his first race on his sisters bike cause he didnt have one

I think in Europe it's pretty mixed in terms of socio-economic class. For the examples above you also have Guillaume Martin, with his masters degree in philosophy and Tom Dumoulin who's dad is a biologist and went to college but decided he'd rather stick to cycling (i.e. it was a choice not an escape route). Even Bardet has an MBA.

Cycling's biggest issue is now lack of cultural diversity. I know he's not everyone on here's favourite, but there was an interesting Eurosport podcast with Wiggins and Mani Arthur of the Black Cyclists Network discussing the issue far better than I could.

Macy0161

greenspurs wrote: »

Interesting to see that Kelly won the Tour de Suiss ( a notoriously 'hilly' stage race) twice, and Tour of Catalunya, (another 'Lumpy' race ) twice !
Just goes to show how he could adapt. Not bad for a sprinter

1984... 2nd in Flanders, straight to Tour of the Basque Country to win the overall, back up north to win Roubaix!

breezy1985

magicbastarder wrote: »

how well specced are most schools for the space and equipment to offer athletics as an option for PE/general sports?

Running?
Well any kid who can play soccer can run.
Not easy to do some of the others like pole vault and javelin alright

breezy1985

Macy0161 wrote: »

I think in Europe it's pretty mixed in terms of socio-economic class. For the examples above you also have Guillaume Martin, with his masters degree in philosophy and Tom Dumoulin who's dad is a biologist and went to college but decided he'd rather stick to cycling (i.e. it was a choice not an escape route). Even Bardet has an MBA.

Cycling's biggest issue is now lack of cultural diversity. I know he's not everyone on here's favourite, but there was an interesting Eurosport podcast with Wiggins and Mani Arthur of the Black Cyclists Network discussing the issue far better than I could.

Martin's parents were teachers and although I don't know his background it's utter snobbery to assume he is posh or not working class because he has a degree. He also grew up in the countryside as did Bardet which is what I was getting at earlier

Chivito550

breezy1985 wrote: »

Firstly athletics is a huge range of sport so you need to narrow it down to track and field for a fair comparison. I've been to the world championships and it was extremely well attended and I've also been to the TdF and WC in cycling that were also very well attended and that was in the UK so not even the heartland.

Take a school of 100 kids in almost any country in the world and ask how many watch athletics or participate outside school or ask em can they name any tracks and field star outside Bolt and very few will say yes to any of the 3. People are not kicking doors down to join athletics clubs with he exception of the diehard countries same as boxing or cycling. All of them are played in every country and have well attended major events but are nowhere in the national conversation in most countries

I never said it was. I'm saying athletics is a global sport, which it is, as it's got world class competitors in every part of the world. This is a fact, not an opinion.

I never mentioned popularity. The only sport popular around the globe is football.

Athletics is far more popular on a global scale than likes of rugby. Most kids around the world don't even know what rugby is. Every kid runs and jumps.

breezy1985

Chivito550 wrote: »

I never said it was. I'm saying athletics is a global sport, which it is, as it's got world class competitors in every part of the world. This is a fact, not an opinion.

I never mentioned popularity. The only sport popular around the globe is football.

Athletics is far more popular on a global scale than likes of rugby. Most kids around the world don't even know what rugby is. Every kid runs and jumps.

Again athletics is not a sport so you can't compare it to rugby you would have to compare it to ball sports. Pick an actual sport and tell me all about how it has world class competitors all over the world. It's easy have competitors from all over the world when you are lumping all the sports from the World Championships in together

Chivito550

breezy1985 wrote: »

Again athletics is not a sport so you can't compare it to rugby you would have to compare it to ball sports. Pick an actual sport and tell me all about how it has world class competitors all over the world. It's easy have competitors from all over the world when you are lumping all the sports from the World Championships in together

News to me that athletics isn't a sport!!

100m, 1500m long jump are disciplines, the same way the Individual persuit, elimination race and road time trial are disciplines.

Athletics is a sport the same way cycling is a sport.

What a ridiculous suggestion. Athletics is recognised as the name of the sport by the IOC.

breezy1985

Chivito550 wrote: »

News to me that athletics isn't a sport!!

100m, 1500m long jump are disciplines, the same way the Individual persuit, elimination race and road time trial are disciplines.

Athletics is a sport the same way cycling is a sport.

What a ridiculous suggestion. Athletics is recognised as the name of the sport by the IOC.

Pursuit, elimination and road all involve a bike and the only ones I would limp together are road, track and cyclo-cross I would never say to someone that the US and Canada are big cycling nations because they are the best at freestyle BMX

I don't see how running fast and throwing a disk far or using a pole to jump high are the same sport whatever the governing body say

Chivito550

breezy1985 wrote: »

Again athletics is not a sport so you can't compare it to rugby you would have to compare it to ball sports. Pick an actual sport and tell me all about how it has world class competitors all over the world. It's easy have competitors from all over the world when you are lumping all the sports from the World Championships in together

So I've narrowed it down to just running events from 100m to marathon, including hurdles and steeplechase. I've removed all walk, field and multi events, just to highlight how many different countries won a medal at the 2019 World Championships:

Europe

Bosnia
Poland
Authorised Neutral Athletes (Russia)
France
Spain
Norway
Great Britain
Belgium
Switzerland
Netherlands
Germany

Americas

USA
Canada
Ecuador
Bahamas
Colombia

Africa

Kenya
Algeria
Morocco
Ethiopia
Uganda
Namibia
Ivory Coast

Asia

Qatar
Japan
Bahrain


Running is a truly global discipline. If I was bothered looking at the top 8 in each event, the number of countries would explode.

Now if you want to call 100m a sport, then you will have to call the Keirin or the road time trial a specific sport. And then if you do that, then cycling simply can't be called a sport. You can't have it both ways.

Only a fool would try argue that cycling is more global than athletics. It stands to reason that it wouldn't be, given the costs are much higher.

It still has very widespread representation across the globe, but it is not global. It is non-existent in Africa and Asia.

Chivito550

breezy1985 wrote: »

Pursuit, elimination and road all involve a bike and the only ones I would limp together are road, track and cyclo-cross I would never say to someone that the US and Canada are big cycling nations because they are the best at freestyle BMX

I don't see how running fast and throwing a disk far or using a pole to jump high are the same sport whatever the governing body say

Maybe if you were involved in the sport, in the technical side of things, the coaching, the specific training etc, you would see a ridiculous amount of overlap between all those power based athletic events you have just mentioned.

TheBlaaMan

Chivito550 wrote: »

So I've narrowed it down to just running events from 100m to marathon, including hurdles and steeplechase. I've removed all walk, field and multi events, just to highlight how many different countries won a medal at the 2019 World Championships:

Europe

Bosnia
Poland
Authorised Neutral Athletes (Russia)
France
Spain
Norway
Great Britain
Belgium
Switzerland
Netherlands
Germany

Americas

USA
Canada
Ecuador
Bahamas
Colombia

Africa

Kenya
Algeria
Morocco
Ethiopia
Uganda
Namibia
Ivory Coast

Asia

Qatar
Japan
Bahrain


.

Acknowledging post 151, exactly which of the above events are on Sean Kellys palmarés ?

breezy1985

Chivito550 wrote: »

Maybe if you were involved in the sport, in the technical side of things, the coaching, the specific training etc, you would see a ridiculous amount of overlap between all those power based athletic events you have just mentioned.

That overlap most likely exists across a number of unconnected sports too. You always hear about how top athletes could have also been this or that

a_squirrelman

:rolleyes:

So anyway, love Sean Kelly, he's the business, and great to listen to.

breezy1985

Chivito550 wrote: »

So I've narrowed it down to just running events from 100m to marathon, including hurdles and steeplechase. I've removed all walk, field and multi events, just to highlight how many different countries won a medal at the 2019 World Championships:

Europe

Bosnia
Poland
Authorised Neutral Athletes (Russia)
France
Spain
Norway
Great Britain
Belgium
Switzerland
Netherlands
Germany

Americas

USA
Canada
Ecuador
Bahamas
Colombia

Africa

Kenya
Algeria
Morocco
Ethiopia
Uganda
Namibia
Ivory Coast

Asia

Qatar
Japan
Bahrain


Running is a truly global discipline. If I was bothered looking at the top 8 in each event, the number of countries would explode.

Now if you want to call 100m a sport, then you will have to call the Keirin or the road time trial a specific sport. And then if you do that, then cycling simply can't be called a sport. You can't have it both ways.

Only a fool would try argue that cycling is more global than athletics. It stands to reason that it wouldn't be, given the costs are much higher.

It still has very widespread representation across the globe, but it is not global. It is non-existent in Africa and Asia.

I'm not trying to say one is more global than the other I'm saying they are both minority sports and cycling is not non existent in Africa or Asia try do a bit of googling of Keirin in Japan for example or cycling in South Africa or Eritrea

Chivito550

breezy1985 wrote: »

I'm not trying to say one is more global than the other I'm saying they are both minority sports and cycling is not non existent in Africa or Asia try do a bit of googling of Keirin in Japan for example or cycling in South Africa or Eritrea

The World Athletics Championships is the third biggest sporting event in the world in terms of TV viewers (not in terms of spectator attendance though, it would probably be the Rugby World Cup based on that parameter because of the 48 games).

I wouldn't call that minority. If that's minority then everything else is, but football.

Fair point on Keirin, I had forgotten the origins of that event.

I don't see a whole lot of Africans and Asians in the peleton however.

Chivito550

a_squirrelman wrote: »

:rolleyes:

So anyway, love Sean Kelly, he's the business, and great to listen to.

I think he's a fascinating person to listen to on commentary. He gives great insights, and comes across as a bit of a character. Love listening to him and hate when they switch over to the other commentary team during the Tour.

breezy1985

Chivito550 wrote: »

The World Athletics Championships is the third biggest sporting event in the world in terms of TV viewers (not in terms of spectator attendance though, it would probably be the Rugby World Cup based on that parameter because of the 48 games).

I wouldn't call that minority. If that's minority then everything else is, but football.

Fair point on Keirin, I had forgotten the origins of that event.

I don't see a whole lot of Africans and Asians in the peleton however.

Again not claiming one versus the other. I'm quite content with cycling being a minority sport and although I would like more people of colour involved I have no interest is the attempts it has made to go global as I will take the Tour d'Ain any day over the Tour of Beijing.

How high up rugby is in those figures shows how daft they are as rugby is nowhere near a global sport even in London most of the population didn't even know the rugby world cup was on in London in 15 when I lived there. Go way back and I did say most of these sports have 1 event that's popular so ok athletics has 2 that transcend the sport

breezy1985

Anyone know if Kelly has any other sporting achievements like a junior B under 14s county hurling medal or something ?

RobFowl

breezy1985 wrote: »

Anyone know if Kelly has any other sporting achievements like a junior B under 14s county hurling medal or something ?

Just cycling for the King.

dublin49

I find listening to Kelly he is very loathe to talk about himself and his own experiences unless pushed by Carlton which is a pity given the wealth of stories he must have ,although I suppose oldies like me will remember the names from his time where as newer generations will class riders of the past they way we viewed heroes of the 50's and early 60's back in the day..

Chivito550

breezy1985 wrote: »

Again not claiming one versus the other. I'm quite content with cycling being a minority sport and although I would like more people of colour involved I have no interest is the attempts it has made to go global as I will take the Tour d'Ain any day over the Tour of Beijing.

How high up rugby is in those figures shows how daft they are as rugby is nowhere near a global sport even in London most of the population didn't even know the rugby world cup was on in London in 15 when I lived there. Go way back and I did say most of these sports have 1 event that's popular so ok athletics has 2 that transcend the sport

Rugby World Cup is miles down the list in terms of TV viewers. It's high up in terms of spectators at the event, as it has 48 games and goes on for ages. Most sports' world championships go on for a week.

TV viewers is a far better measurement of global popularity.

2 Wheels Good

Unfortunately it's a bit of luck in cycling like a lot of the less supported sports. Sean was extremely driven and had the opportunity to race. Dan Curtin in Kanturk has given lads the opportunity to prove themselves.
Charly Wegelius who wrote Domestique had a PE teacher who let him go off training on the bike instead of doing PE, who knows if he'd have made it otherwise.
The fact that Sean and Stephen made it to the top in the 80s is in some ways even more credit to their talent and determination considering how hard it was to break through.
As for Sean winning, I think even he's admitted he could have focused better on certain races so he might even have won the tour.

Chivito550

2 Wheels Good wrote: »

Unfortunately it's a bit of luck in cycling like a lot of the less supported sports. Sean was extremely driven and had the opportunity to race. Dan Curtin in Kanturk has given lads the opportunity to prove themselves.
Charly Wegelius who wrote Domestique had a PE teacher who let him go off training on the bike instead of doing PE, who knows if he'd have made it otherwise.
The fact that Sean and Stephen made it to the top in the 80s is in some ways even more credit to their talent and determination considering how hard it was to break through.
As for Sean winning, I think even he's admitted he could have focused better on certain races so he might even have won the tour.

Even forgetting about the drugs for a minute, this was one reason Lance Armstrong couldn't be considered an all-time great. He barely raced all year, other than the Tour. How many Tours would Merckx have won if he did that sort of carry on?

Armstrong is responsible for damaging the rest of the cycling calendar. His attitude undermined all the other events, and pushed the Tour to be seen by the general public as the only thing that mattered.

breezy1985

dublin49 wrote: »

I find listening to Kelly he is very loathe to talk about himself and his own experiences unless pushed by Carlton which is a pity given the wealth of stories he must have ,although I suppose oldies like me will remember the names from his time where as newer generations will class riders of the past they way we viewed heroes of the 50's and early 60's back in the day..

For a commentator Sean is oddly loathe to talk full stop unless pushed

Chivito550

breezy1985 wrote: »

For a commentator Sean is oddly loathe to talk full stop unless pushed

I think there's something quite likeable about his style. Not a big talkers, but any time he talks it is pure sense and he has your attention.

Macy0161

breezy1985 wrote: »

Martin's parents were teachers and although I don't know his background it's utter snobbery to assume he is posh or not working class because he has a degree. He also grew up in the countryside as did Bardet which is what I was getting at earlier

That wasn't my intention at all. My logic was that cycling was seen, rightly or wrongly, as a working class sport and a means to escape (similar to how boxing was perceived in urban environments). Martin obviously chose cycling rather than it being a lack of an alternative option, which would've been the stereotype of the 50's/ 60's even into the 70's.

I actually think any sport is really like that in Europe anymore. No one is coming out of the mines at 14 like Stablinski to win bike races.

breezy1985

Chivito550 wrote: »

Even forgetting about the drugs for a minute, this was one reason Lance Armstrong couldn't be considered an all-time great. He barely raced all year, other than the Tour. How many Tours would Merckx have won if he did that sort of carry on?

Armstrong is responsible for damaging the rest of the cycling calendar. His attitude undermined all the other events, and pushed the Tour to be seen by the general public as the only thing that mattered.

Casual cycling fans and and new to the sport Lance fans never understood this. They think everyone hates him for cheating and turned a blind eye to others but it was his lack of respect for the sports history and his overtly American win at all costs in regards to the Tour that really done it

Macy0161

breezy1985 wrote: »

Casual cycling fans and and new to the sport Lance fans never understood this. They think everyone hates him for cheating and turned a blind eye to others but it was his lack of respect for the sports history and his overtly American win at all costs in regards to the Tour that really done it

I just hate him because he's a dick! Lemond gets a lot of stick for this too, but always raced the classics, and put in decent performances even in roubaix, as well as regularly doing the Giro.

breezy1985

Macy0161 wrote: »

That wasn't my intention at all. My logic was that cycling was seen, rightly or wrongly, as a working class sport and a means to escape (similar to how boxing was perceived in urban environments). Martin obviously chose cycling rather than it being a lack of an alternative option, which would've been the stereotype of the 50's/ 60's even into the 70's.

I actually think any sport is really like that in Europe anymore. No one is coming out of the mines at 14 like Stablinski to win bike races.

Ya I get ya no one is using sport as the only chance at a job and a good life. Kellys choice was partly down to bricklaying boring him to tears and thank god for us he felt that way same goes for Billy Connolly who realized early on that he would always be a s*** welder.

As for Martin though did he really have other options in life given his degree was in philosophy : )

dublin49

the point is well made about the uninformed spectator exclusively focusing on the tour ,I was that soldier for awhile ,I well remember coverage of the tour and riders like Tony Rominger,Laurence Jalabert,Charley Mottet and others would be named checked as possible winners and I would wonder why they were even being mentioned.Invariably the camera would focus on them suffering in the Alps or Pyrenees and that would be the end of them for another year.