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Remembrance Sunday and no Poppy thread?

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    #152
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Whats the founder of the Israeli state got to do with Irish Quislings?

    Do you even know who Quisling was?

    I think you're using his name as an invalid metaphor.


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    #153
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Snickers Man wrote: »
    Do you even know who Quisling was?

    I think you're using his name as an invalid metaphor.

    quisling
    /ˈkwɪzlɪŋ/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    a traitor who collaborates with an enemy force occupying their country.


    I know the exact meaning of it. The very definition of an Irishman fighting for the queen in WW1.


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    #154
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    quisling
    /ˈkwɪzlɪŋ/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    a traitor who collaborates with an enemy force occupying their country.


    I know the exact meaning of it. The very definition of an Irishman fighting for the queen in WW1.

    So your answer to the question "Do you even know who Quisling was?" is No.


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    #155
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Snickers Man wrote: »
    So your answer to the question "Do you even know who Quisling was?" is No.

    Norwegian bloke, collaborated with the Nazis while leader there. Virdun or something was his first name. No idea what he has to do with Irish quislings. I've given you the dictionary definition which perfectly sums up Irish soldiers in the british army.


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    #156
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Would you consider James Connolly, Michael Collins and DeValera traitors or quislings too?


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    #157
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    saabsaab wrote: »
    Would you consider James Connolly, Michael Collins and DeValera traitors or quislings too?

    Did they swear an oath to the Queen, and fight for her, while she was an occupying power??

    I swear by Almighty God (do solemnly, and truly declare and affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will, as in duty bound, honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, in Person, Crown and Dignity against all enemies, and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, and of the (admirals / generals/ air officers) and officers set over me.


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    #158
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    This was sworn.



    Article 17 of the Irish Free State's 1922 Constitution. It read:
    I (name) do solemnly swear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the Irish Free State as by law established, and that I will be faithful to H.M. King George V, his heirs and successors by law in virtue of the common citizenship of Ireland with Great Britain and her adherence to and membership of the group of nations forming the British Commonwealth of Nations.


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    #159
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    saabsaab wrote: »
    This was sworn.



    Article 17 of the Irish Free State's 1922 Constitution. It read:
    I (name) do solemnly swear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the Irish Free State as by law established, and that I will be faithful to H.M. King George V, his heirs and successors by law in virtue of the common citizenship of Ireland with Great Britain and her adherence to and membership of the group of nations forming the British Commonwealth of Nations.

    Did they fight for King George, while he was occupying Ireland??


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    #160
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    How would you define Ireland?


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    #161
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    saabsaab wrote: »
    How would you define Ireland?
    533105.jpg


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    #162
    Frankie Machine
    Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Frankie Machine


    Don't think its very interesting or productive to be sniping here and there that Connolly was in the BA, or Tom Clarke's father, or Liam Mellows' father, or whatever.


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    #163
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Frankie Machine wrote: »
    Don't think its very interesting or productive to be sniping here and there that Connolly was in the BA, or Tom Clarke's father, or Liam Mellows' father, or whatever.


    No it's not. I wouldn't call them names for it either.


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    #164
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    saabsaab wrote: »
    How would you define Ireland?

    Don’t like quislings being called out? Few traitors in the family??


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    #165
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,275 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    quisling
    /ˈkwɪzlɪŋ/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    a traitor who collaborates with an enemy force occupying their country.

    I know the exact meaning of it. The very definition of an Irishman fighting for the queen in WW1.

    King George V wasn't it....

    Irish men fought in the Great War for many reasons, from serving their King to fighting for Ireland, to those who just wanted to put food on the table back home, to many who sought adventure, to others who saw it as their duty to fight the enemy (Germany).

    Approximately & arguably 50,000 Irish men died in the Great War, that's enough to fill Dublin's Aviva stadium, now there's a sobering thought.

    Whatever their individual reasons for fighting in WWI, they don't deserve the bile and utter disgusting comments made against them by one or two posters on here.

    Their memory deserves better, hence Remembrance Day on the 11th of November.


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    #166
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Don’t like quislings being called out? Few traitors in the family??


    By your definition I'd say every family has, including your own and many who were in 1916 too.


    You think Connolly, Collins and Dev are?


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    #167
    Frankie Machine
    Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Frankie Machine


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    King George V wasn't it....

    Irish men fought in the Great War for many reasons, from serving their King to fighting for Ireland, to those who just wanted to put food on the table back home, to many who sought adventure, to others who saw it as their duty to fight the enemy (Germany).

    Approximately & arguably 50,000 Irish men died in the Great War, that's enough to fill Dublin's Aviva stadium, now there's a sobering thought.

    Whatever their individual reasons for fighting in WWI, they don't deserve the bile and utter disgusting comments made against them by one or two posters on here.

    Their memory deserves better, hence Remembrance Day on the 11th of November.

    I don't think I would look on my ancestor in the same way if he were going for economic reasons, as opposed to going for 'Home Rule', as opposed to going for his King'.

    Some reasons are better/more understandable/more forgivable than other reasons, so I don't agree with a blanket statement that their memory deserves better.

    I wonder if they could speak, how many of them would want to be remembered for this, and in this way.

    All a bit too 'we're mature' attention-seeking in my view, this ostentatious once-a-year show of remembrance.


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    #168
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    A blanket rejection isn't fair either.


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    #169
    Frankie Machine
    Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Frankie Machine


    saabsaab wrote: »
    A blanket rejection isn't fair either.

    No, it wouldn't be my considered approach.

    Though the thought of condemnation would certainly cross my mind.


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    #170
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    saabsaab wrote: »
    By your definition I'd say every family has, including your own and many who were in 1916 too.


    You think Connolly, Collins and Dev are?

    You think every family has someone who fought for the Britain army while occupied by them? That’s quite a tenuous grasp of history.


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    #171
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    King George V wasn't it....

    Irish men fought in the Great War for many reasons, from serving their King to fighting for Ireland, to those who just wanted to put food on the table back home, to many who sought adventure, to others who saw it as their duty to fight the enemy (Germany).

    Approximately & arguably 50,000 Irish men died in the Great War, that's enough to fill Dublin's Aviva stadium, now there's a sobering thought.

    Whatever their individual reasons for fighting in WWI, they don't deserve the bile and utter disgusting comments made against them by one or two posters on here.

    Their memory deserves better, hence Remembrance Day on the 11th of November.

    Anyone serving the British king doesn’t deserve to be called Irish. Traitors and Quislings. Thankfully quite a few were shunned on their return.

    “The Ministry for Labour in London reported that the Irishman who returned from the front found “their own people have nothing but contempt to offer him for patriotism and sacrifice, and he is denied the right to work or live in the country [for] which he fought”.


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    #172
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    This must be the absolute definition of arm chair republicanism.

    See the entire world as black and white. My side good, anything else bad.

    Those spouting this ****e are usually the ones who would **** themselves senseless at the thought of actually going in to a war, so much prefer to judge others from the safety of their pc.


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    #173
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Aegir wrote: »
    This must be the absolute definition of arm chair republicanism.

    See the entire world as black and white. My side good, anything else bad.

    Those spouting this ****e are usually the ones who would **** themselves senseless at the thought of actually going in to a war, so much prefer to judge others from the safety of their pc.

    Aww, did Grandpapa take the kings shilling?


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    #174
    440Hertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 651 ✭✭✭440Hertz


    There comes a time in a conflict when maybe it's time to just move onto a dignified, solemn memory. This isn't commentated like this anywhere else in Europe. It seems to be a relatively modern bit of very nationalistic flag stuff, coming from the same place as Brexit.

    In most of continental Europe, where the consequences of both wars were most acutely felt, including by civilian populations, if commemorations are held, they tend to be a lot more dignified, solemn and appropriate.

    The whole poppy thing has morphed into something far more about flag waving and bashing people, even in other countries, for not being sufficiently patriotic and tacky, Hallmark nationalism and yet more of this modern culture wars stuff.

    There's also a need to let the past be the past, give it the dignity of fading to memory and living in the present.


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    #175
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,275 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Aww, did Grandpapa take the kings shilling?

    Well mine certainly did, as did many hundreds of thousands of other proud Irish men and women back in 1914. You're obviously looking at this whole episode through the eyes of a 1916 Rebel who were a tiny minority in 1916 and who would have been an even smaller group in 1914 when the war started.

    Most Irish people were not striving to part with the rest of these islands at that time, and it was only after 1916-1918 that the political landscape changed back home in Ireland, hence why so many soldiers after giving it their all on the Western front, came back to an utterly changed Ireland, whereby violent Irish Nationalism had taken hold and any allegiances that had existed at the outbreak of the war were now dust.....

    Anyway, remembrance Day was back on the 11th Nov, so this thread should be winding down soon, but I do think it's good that we remember those who died in the trenches in awful conditions fighting & dieing in a thankless & pointless war.


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    #176
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,585 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    Well mine certainly did as did, many hundreds of thousands of other proud Irish men and women back in 1914. You're obviously looking at this whole episode through the eyes of a 1916 Rebel who were a tiny minority in 1916 and who would have been an even smaller group in 1914 when the war started.

    Most Irish people were not striving to part with the rest of these islands at that time, and it was only after 1916-1918 that the political landscape changed back home in Ireland, hence why so many soldiers after giving it their all on the Western front, came back to an utterly changed Ireland, whereby violent Irish Nationalism had taken hold and any allegiances that had existed at the outbreak of the war were now dust.....

    Anyway, remembrance Day was back on the 11th Nov, so this thread should be winding down soon, but I do think it's good that we remember this who died in the trenches in awful conditions fighting a thankless and pointless war.

    People like that will always be bitter, best not to reply and let the thread die a natural death.


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    #177
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    Most Irish people were not striving to part with the rest of these islands at that time.

    180,000 Irish Volunteers might have disagreed with you.


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    #178
    440Hertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 651 ✭✭✭440Hertz


    In an Irish context I think the only solution is simply to honour the memories of those who died in wars on a human basis and not a political one.

    There’s absolutely no reason to bolt that to whitewashing the British Army’a history in Ireland and elsewhere.

    The world changed. Ireland changed. Britain Changed. Politics changed. All sorts of things changed. Unless you’re a diehard British nationalist of some sort, it’s just not a simple history and one set of battles that had a motive that was noble and defensive, don’t undo the institution’s rather grim imperial history.

    History is very complicated. Revising and reducing it to symbolic wearing or not wearing a paper flower is just pointless flag waiving nationalism.

    There’s a big difference between commemorating those who were killed in wars and revering the British Army as an institution and it’s very obvious that those two concepts are conflated.


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    #179
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    Well mine certainly did, as did many hundreds of thousands of other proud Irish men and women back in 1914. You're obviously looking at this whole episode through the eyes of a 1916 Rebel who were a tiny minority in 1916 and who would have been an even smaller group in 1914 when the war started.

    Most Irish people were not striving to part with the rest of these islands at that time, and it was only after 1916-1918 that the political landscape changed back home in Ireland, hence why so many soldiers after giving it their all on the Western front, came back to an utterly changed Ireland, whereby violent Irish Nationalism had taken hold and any allegiances that had existed at the outbreak of the war were now dust.....

    Anyway, remembrance Day was back on the 11th Nov, so this thread should be winding down soon, but I do think it's good that we remember those who died in the trenches in awful conditions fighting & dieing in a thankless & pointless war.

    They should be remembered as traitors to Ireland. Quislings who chose to fight on behalf of the King and country oppressing them. No better than Khalid Kelly or Lisa Smith.


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    #180
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,275 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Wow :rolleyes:
    Go on and besmirch their memory all you like, but as I have already said .....

    "You're obviously looking at this whole episode through the eyes of a 1916 Rebel".


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    #181
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    Wow :rolleyes:
    Go on and besmirch their memory all you like, but as I have already said .....

    "You're obviously looking at this whole episode through the eyes of a 1916 Rebel".

    Yeah, 1916 was the only time the Irish rose up against the British. :rolleyes:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_uprisings


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