Nimbyism: Windfarm off South County Dublin

loyatemu

GT89 wrote: »

All the while ignoring the single most efficient and enviromentally friendly method of energy production nuclear that would really get the nimbys on overdrive too. It is the sensible option.

in Dalkey? Maybe in the old quarry?

I find the poolbeg chimneys an interesting parallel. They're an ugly as sin remnant of the industrial era that are actually defunct. They were gonna be torn down but people protested against it because they were so used to the eye sore that it became a beloved part of the landscape. How can anyone be in favour of those chimney's yet be against these wind farms.

GT89

loyatemu wrote: »

in Dalkey? Maybe in the old quarry?

Perhaps not in a built up urban area. The quarry could be a good place to bury the waste mind you.

seamus

The danger to birds argument is massively overstated. The danger posed by them is a fraction of the same danger posed by more mundane risks such as cats, buildings, vehicles and power lines.

Nevertheless, it is an area of intense study, with a number of recent innovations proving themselves good at reducing the risk to birds even further.

Yellow_Fern

seamus wrote: »

The danger to birds argument is massively overstated. The danger posed by them is a fraction of the same danger posed by more mundane risks such as cats, buildings, vehicles and power lines.

Nevertheless, it is an area of intense study, with a number of recent innovations proving themselves good at reducing the risk to birds even further.

How many golden eagles or white tailed eagles have been killed by cats and cars or power lines?

Tabnabs

Wind turbine blades have a shelf life of 20-35 years and are the size of an aircraft wing. While about 80% of the blade components are recyclable, the blades themselves are not and end up in landfill. A problem that other countries are facing with their now ageing infrastructure.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-02-05/wind-turbine-blades-can-t-be-recycled-so-they-re-piling-up-in-landfills

bob mcbob

As a Scot where there are many many more Turbines, I find some of the arguments against here familiar

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-49594699

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-48936941

ted1

bob mcbob wrote: »

As a Scot where there are many many more Turbines, I find some of the arguments against here familiar

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-49594699

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-48936941

Like this : https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2350267/amp/Rare-bird-white-throated-needletail-killed-wind-turbine-crowd-twitchers.html

bob mcbob

ted1 wrote: »

Like this : https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2350267/amp/Rare-bird-white-throated-needletail-killed-wind-turbine-crowd-twitchers.html

Ok so 1 bird killed over 7 years ago is the basis for your argument against turbines.

There is no evidence that the northern gannet population is decreasing currently.
They would be worst hit by these flying as they do, out to sea to fish

Here is a report - apparent their eyesight is good enough to see and avoid these huge structures

https://www.carbontrust.com/news-and-events/news/pioneering-study-finds-seabirds-avoid-offshore-wind-turbines-much-more-than

Tabnabs

One of 10 sea eagles found dead, in one year alone, at the Norwegian Smøla windfarm. There is very strong and vocal resistance to windfarms in Norway.

To date, over 100 eagles have been found dead on this one windfarm alone.

bob mcbob

Tabnabs wrote: »

One of 10 sea eagles found dead, in one year alone, at the Norwegian Smøla windfarm. There is very strong and vocal resistance to windfarms in Norway.

To date, over 100 eagles have been found dead on this one windfarm alone.

I hadn't heard of Smola but the first article I brought up was this one -

Many of the birds that have died by flying into the wind turbines had their nesting territory within a five kilometre radius of the wind farm, meaning that the population in this area has dropped since the wind farm was built. The survival chances of a bird within this radius has gone from 96 to 94 per cent.
But the Smøla population as a whole has remained stable at 50 breeding pairs of eagles.

Hardly an eagle apocalypse

https://partner.sciencenorway.no/birds-dna-forskningno/five-kilometres-between-life-and-death-for-the-sea-eagle/1409781

Since it is all about the iconic birds - lets look at Puffins

The UK’s third largest puffin colony is declining and climate change is a major factor

The increase in water temperature has forced sand eels, puffins’ main source of food, further north, leaving the birds struggling to find food.

https://inews.co.uk/news/environment/puffin-population-uk-isle-of-may-scotland-declining-climate-change-303971

Hundreds of puffins are starving to death because of climate change

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2204764-hundreds-of-puffins-are-starving-to-death-because-of-climate-change/#ixzz6dPV7eLFO

So let's not build wind farms save a few individual birds but lose entire bird species like puffins.

Thelonious Monk

Has Pat Kenny got "wind" of this yet? I'd imagine that old f*cker will be up in arms about it leading resident NIMBY campaigns etc. I wonder if it has come up on his newstalk show yet, I can't listen to it any more after his nonsense about cycling and public transport.

Birdnuts

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

You could look at: "wind energy needs constant backup" and instead, view it as supplementing conventional power sources so that their carbon consumption gets reduced.

Germanys prices are higher because it was an early adopter of renewable energy and is in full throttle mode to transition. It will benefit later while the rest of us are still trying to catch up.

Our domestic natural gas prices aren't reducing with Shell operating in the west nor are we reaping any tax benefits yet because of the ROI required.

Your arguments are the same as saying nobody should buy electric cars.

Will it?? Its as heavily reliant on coal as ever, plus its going ahead with a major gas link up to Russia. Doesn't say much for all the billions ploughed into wind does it??

Carbon taxes, PSO levies etc. are the reason domestic consumers have not benefitted from cheaper world gas prices

Birdnuts

Deleted User wrote: »

I find the poolbeg chimneys an interesting parallel. They're an ugly as sin remnant of the industrial era that are actually defunct. They were gonna be torn down but people protested against it because they were so used to the eye sore that it became a beloved part of the landscape. How can anyone be in favour of those chimney's yet be against these wind farms.

What harm is an old chimney stack doing?? As already outlined here these windtubines are likely to be a major threat to seabird colonies along the East coast.

Birdnuts

seamus wrote: »

The danger to birds argument is massively overstated. The danger posed by them is a fraction of the same danger posed by more mundane risks such as cats, buildings, vehicles and power lines.

Nevertheless, it is an area of intense study, with a number of recent innovations proving themselves good at reducing the risk to birds even further.

:rolleyes:

A false argument as already outlined earlier in this thread - none of those things you list(apart from power lines maybe - which we will need alot more if we go down the wind route) are a threat to seabirds, eagles etc. in the same way rapidly rotating wind turbine blades are

smackyB

Here's a link to a site with much clearer renderings of how the windfarm will look from various vantage points along the coast.

My two cents: I'm all for it, the benefits are huge and I think the turbines will add a really interesting dynamic element to the coastal views.

Birdnuts

bob mcbob wrote: »

I hadn't heard of Smola but the first article I brought up was this one -

Many of the birds that have died by flying into the wind turbines had their nesting territory within a five kilometre radius of the wind farm, meaning that the population in this area has dropped since the wind farm was built. The survival chances of a bird within this radius has gone from 96 to 94 per cent.
But the Smøla population as a whole has remained stable at 50 breeding pairs of eagles.

Hardly an eagle apocalypse

https://partner.sciencenorway.no/birds-dna-forskningno/five-kilometres-between-life-and-death-for-the-sea-eagle/1409781

Since it is all about the iconic birds - lets look at Puffins


BOP's like eagles are indeed hard hit in many cases as case studies have shown

https://www.birdlife.org/worldwide/news/new-study-pinpoints-birds-prey-hardest-hit-wind-farms

In India wind farms are killing so many birds they are changing whole ecosytems


https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/wildlife-biodiversity/wind-turbines-kill-birds-of-prey-in-western-ghats-62048




The UK’s third largest puffin colony is declining and climate change is a major factor

The increase in water temperature has forced sand eels, puffins’ main source of food, further north, leaving the birds struggling to find food.

https://inews.co.uk/news/environment/puffin-population-uk-isle-of-may-scotland-declining-climate-change-303971

Hundreds of puffins are starving to death because of climate change

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2204764-hundreds-of-puffins-are-starving-to-death-because-of-climate-change/#ixzz6dPV7eLFO

So let's not build wind farms save a few individual birds but lose entire bird species like puffins.

So you think building windfarms on top of their main feeding grounds will benefit the likes of Puffins?? - RSPB don't seem to think so.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/10/13/seabirds-face-extinction-government-pursues-wind-farm-plan-rspb/


Interestingly the likes of Puffins and Kittewakes are declining much faster in the likes of the North Sea which has vast areas of windfarms then they are off Irish coasts.


In India wind farms are killing so many rarer birds like eagles that they are changing whole ecosystems


https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/wildlife-biodiversity/wind-turbines-kill-birds-of-prey-in-western-ghats-62048

Birdnuts

smackyB wrote: »

Here's a link to a site with much clearer renderings of how the windfarm will look from various vantage points along the coast.

My two cents: I'm all for it, the benefits are huge and I think the turbines will add a really interesting dynamic element to the coastal views.

Who benefits apart from the developers??

bob mcbob

Birdnuts wrote: »

So you think building windfarms on top of their main feeding grounds will benefit the likes of Puffins?? - RSPB don't seem to think so.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/10/13/seabirds-face-extinction-government-pursues-wind-farm-plan-rspb/


Interestingly the likes of Puffins and Kittewakes are declining much faster in the likes of the North Sea which has vast areas of windfarms then they are off Irish coasts.

Really - here is the position from the actual RSPB website rather than the Daily Boris

Climate change poses the single greatest long-term threat to birds and other wildlife, and the RSPB recognises the essential role of renewable energy in addressing this problem.

Switching to renewable energy now, rather than in ten or twenty years, is essential if we are to stabilise greenhouse gases in the atmosphere at safe levels.

Wind power is the most advanced renewable technology, available at a large scale, over this time period. For this reason, the RSPB supports a significant growth in offshore and onshore wind power generation in the UK.

https://www.rspb.org.uk/our-work/our-positions-and-casework/our-positions/climate-change/action-to-tackle-climate-change/uk-energy-policy/wind-farms/

Tabnabs

bob mcbob wrote: »

So let's not build wind farms save a few individual birds but lose entire bird species like puffins.

So very militant and extreme.

Maybe we could look at the impact of windfarms and not just give them a free pass because, you know, whataboutery...

If dead birds aren't enough, what about bats; "tens to hundreds of thousands die at wind turbines each year in North America alone."
https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/how-are-bats-affected-wind-turbines?qt-news_science_products=0#qt-news_science_products

Or insects:German Wind Turbines Kill 1,200 Tons Of Insects Per Year
https://www.thegwpf.com/new-study-german-wind-turbines-kill-1200-tons-of-insects-per-year/

Are wind turbines ok because it's not carbon based?

Birdnuts

bob mcbob wrote: »

Really - here is the position from the actual RSPB website rather than the Daily Boris

Climate change poses the single greatest long-term threat to birds and other wildlife, and the RSPB recognises the essential role of renewable energy in addressing this problem.

Switching to renewable energy now, rather than in ten or twenty years, is essential if we are to stabilise greenhouse gases in the atmosphere at safe levels.

Wind power is the most advanced renewable technology, available at a large scale, over this time period. For this reason, the RSPB supports a significant growth in offshore and onshore wind power generation in the UK.

https://www.rspb.org.uk/our-work/our-positions-and-casework/our-positions/climate-change/action-to-tackle-climate-change/uk-energy-policy/wind-farms/

They have to go along with that type of greenwash to secure funding streams. Their actions on the ground strongly suggest they view wind farms as a growing threat to many vulnereable seabird species

https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/rspb-lodges-legal-challenge-against-wind-farms-1515645

https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2020/10/19/nature-and-bird-organisations-maintain-objections-to-yell-wind-farm/

woejus

Deleted User wrote: »

I find the poolbeg chimneys an interesting parallel. They're an ugly as sin remnant of the industrial era that are actually defunct. They were gonna be torn down but people protested against it because they were so used to the eye sore that it became a beloved part of the landscape. How can anyone be in favour of those chimney's yet be against these wind farms.

Tangentially related, but if you've ever wanted to know what it looks like at the top of these, here you are :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvAWAHczOYs

bob mcbob

Birdnuts wrote: »

They have to go along with that type of greenwash to secure funding streams. Their actions on the ground strongly suggest they view wind farms as a growing threat to many vulnereable seabird species

https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/rspb-lodges-legal-challenge-against-wind-farms-1515645

https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2020/10/19/nature-and-bird-organisations-maintain-objections-to-yell-wind-farm/

It looks to me like they want to have their cake and eat it (cakeism) - very Daily Boris.

We recognise the threat posed by climate change to birds but we are going to oppose anything that aims to address it.

bob mcbob

Tabnabs wrote: »

So very militant and extreme.

Maybe we could look at the impact of windfarms and not just give them a free pass because, you know, whataboutery...

If dead birds aren't enough, what about bats; "tens to hundreds of thousands die at wind turbines each year in North America alone."
https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/how-are-bats-affected-wind-turbines?qt-news_science_products=0#qt-news_science_products

Or insects:German Wind Turbines Kill 1,200 Tons Of Insects Per Year
https://www.thegwpf.com/new-study-german-wind-turbines-kill-1200-tons-of-insects-per-year/

Are wind turbines ok because it's not carbon based?

I am not an expert on bats or insects in the Irish Sea but I think that the number found 10K offshore is likely to be fairly small

Rigor Mortis

Birdnuts wrote: »

Who benefits apart from the developers??

Based on the likely €2 per MW Community Benefit element that is included in the Electricity auctions, with one of the larger offshorep projects you will be talking multi - million payments into community funds. In addition to lease fees to the state.
Nature of renewable investments is that they tend to return moderate but very certain returns over a long period, thats why pension funds like investing in renewables.

Birdnuts

bob mcbob wrote: »

It looks to me like they want to have their cake and eat it (cakeism) - very Daily Boris.

We recognise the threat posed by climate change to birds but we are going to oppose anything that aims to address it.

You think wind farms will make the weather better??:rolleyes: - if you were that concerned about the issue you be advocating nuclear and/or better energy efficiancy. I suppose your supporting building these white elephants on peatlands too?? - leading to the destruction of natural carbon sinks and disasters like Derrybrein

https://greennews.ie/cjeu-fines-5m-ireland-derrybrien/

Birdnuts

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Based on the likely €2 per MW Community Benefit element that is included in the Electricity auctions, with one of the larger offshorep projects you will be talking multi - million payments into community funds. In addition to lease fees to the state.
Nature of renewable investments is that they tend to return moderate but very certain returns over a long period, thats why pension funds like investing in renewables.

Peanuts compared to the impact its going to have on the energy costs in this state that are already among the highest in the EU thanx to all that useless junk we have already installed onshore. Energy poverty in this country is a real and growing problem - not that the smug Eamon Ryan types in D4 care, its all about empty virture signalling for them at the end of the day.

PS: Glad you mentioned "pension" funds - a significant and growing number of foreign vulture funds are already pocketing large amounts of our cash via wind subsidies. How is that a good deal for Ireland??

bob mcbob

Birdnuts wrote: »

You think wind farms will make the weather better??:rolleyes: - if you were that concerned about the issue you be advocating nuclear and/or better energy efficiancy. I suppose your supporting building these white elephants on peatlands too?? - leading to the destruction of natural carbon sinks and disasters like Derrybrein

https://greennews.ie/cjeu-fines-5m-ireland-derrybrien/

Ok 2 simple questions for you -

do you believe in climate change ?

if yes what do you think needs to be done to address it ?

Birdnuts

bob mcbob wrote: »

Ok 2 simple questions for you -

do you believe in climate change ?

if yes what do you think needs to be done to address it ?

I already mentioned approaches to dealing with the "human element" in terms of nuclear, energy efficiancy, protection of Carbon storing habitats like bogs and rainforests etc. I also recognise that climate change has a large natural element that has always been ongoing and in the recent past has occured much faster then anything that has been recorded in the last 200 years. Folk like yourself appear to beleive that the climate can never change in such natural ways or that "bad weather" suddenly arrived in the last 30 years or so:rolleyes:

https://phys.org/news/2011-06-rapid-greenland-climate-years.html

bob mcbob

Birdnuts wrote: »

I already mentioned approaches to dealing with the "human element" in terms of nuclear, energy efficiancy, protection of Carbon storing habitats like bogs and rainforests etc. I also recognise that climate change has a large natural element that has always been ongoing and in the recent past has occured much faster then anything that has been recorded in the last 200 years. Folk like yourself appear to beleive that the climate can never change in such natural ways or that "bad weather" suddenly arrived in the last 30 years or so:rolleyes:

https://phys.org/news/2011-06-rapid-greenland-climate-years.html

Ok so your solution (for the "human element") is to replace all carbon generating power sources with nuclear. Engage in large scale insulation to reduce the amount of energy needed. Unfortunately protection of current carbon storing habitats only ensures that the current carbon load does not increase.

Do you really see these as feasible options because I am not sure anyone else would.

Oh you have me wrong I believe that large scale climate change can happen naturally. For example the Comet which hit the earth 65million years ago was fully natural and resulted in an extinction event. Much closer in time was the last ice age which ended 12000 years ago also resulted in large scale extinctions.

Just because it happened in the past and will undoubtedly happen in the future, does not mean we can abdicate responsibility for our actions today.