Discovery 3x05 'Die Trying' ~~ { ** Spoilers Within ** }

corkie

Discovery 3x05 'Die Trying'

Sad Professor wrote: »

Folks, in relation to spoilers, you don't have to use spoiler tags in the episode threads. If someone hasn't seen the episode yet then they shouldn't be reading the thread, period. When it airs on Netflix doesn't matter. I would suggest that whoever starts the thread put a spoiler warning in the title. I'll add one to this now.

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{ ** Spoilers from Below ** }

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ilovesmybrick

I think that would be one of my favourite Discovery episodes to date. A pretty decent standalone story and a few bits to push the larger plot forward. The Voyager J was a nice touch also, I'm really happy they didn't go with the obvious Enterprise M or something!

However, show me these new ships, don't just tell me how great or weird they are. It's also a pity to lose Nhan, though I would wonder if she reappears later in the season.

Spear

It seems a safe bet that glasses guy is 31st century Section 31, or at least Starfleet intelligence. Which may support the idea of the S31 series remaining in the 31st century.

ilovesmybrick

Spear wrote: »

It seems a safe bet that glasses guy is 31st century Section 31, or at least Starfleet intelligence. Which may support the idea of the S31 series remaining in the 31st century.

Yeah, I think it was the (kinda cool) 31st century tie that really added to the shifty aura around him. I do hope that if they go ahead with the S31 series it stays in the 31st century. Until this episode I was working under the presumption that it ties into the short trek episode by sending Georgiou back with the ship for reasons and hiding it in the nebula to be found in the 31st century. An idea I hate...mostly 'cos it could work really, really well if written and planned out excellently. Which I don't think they would manage!

Spear

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

Yeah, I think it was the (kinda cool) 31st century tie that really added to the shifty aura around him. I do hope that if they go ahead with the S31 series it stays in the 31st century. Until this episode I was working under the presumption that it ties into the short trek episode by sending Georgiou back with the ship for reasons and hiding it in the nebula to be found in the 31st century. An idea I hate...mostly 'cos it could work really, really well if written and planned out excellently. Which I don't think they would manage!

They certainly seemed to plant the seeds of separating her from Discovery, terrans are gone, staying for a person makes you weak etc. The sparring between them makes me a little more enthusiastic, since I presume glasses guy will also appear on the series as her boss.

Edit: glasses guy is David Cronenburg, I knew he was familiar but couldn't quite place him.

PirateShampoo

Could you imagine any other of the Captains (Picard, Sisko, Janeway) let them selves be cuckold the way Burnham does to Saru?

Cant leave family? Bring the pods to Discovery.

Cant leave seed ship, its tiny, bring it aboard Discovery.

Oh look, 900 years into the future and I'll blink to short circuit the holograms.

More bloody tears....

And i hope they arnt going to rip off BSG with the music plot.

Also USS Nog so a thumbs up for that

duffman13

Wasn't a huge fan of last weeks but this weeks was thoroughly enjoyable bar maybe one or two scenes with Michael shoe horned in as usual. Saru is a very good captain and I'm liking him more in the role, the s31 guy and scenes with Georgio were very good. Some interesting plots available from here

liamtech

Yea i mean i have slated the season so far - but that was

1. Clearly the best episode of season 3
2. up there in terms of Discovery over all
3. intriguing - i am looking forward to more now, which i wasnt up to now

It was very good, i just wish they had condensed eps 1-4 and we got this earlier

ilovesmybrick

liamtech wrote: »

It was very good, i just wish they had condensed eps 1-4 and we got this earlier

Can't disagree with that, though they are moving along faster than I initially expected, I honestly thought it would be halfway through the season before we came across the federation.

I also did like the admirals rather explicit "You go where we tell you". It's inevitably setting up the episode where they go rogue, but I do hope there's a couple of episodes like this one, that work as a standalone traditional Trek episode while still servicing the broader plot. I understand the constraints of a shorter season than we're used to, and the move towards a larger narrative story tellling style, but I think Discovery and Picard really are lacking in the episodes you can stick on while making the dinner or whatever.

corkie

Spear wrote: »

......... glasses guy is David Cronenburg, I knew he was familiar but couldn't quite place him..........

When I saw the preview last week, I thought he looked like 'Ted Danson'.





Cronenberg Talks Future & Potential Retirement
"Cronenberg has helmed some very well known genre vehicles over the past few decades from “The Fly” to “Videodrome,” “Dead Ringers” and “Naked Lunch” before spinning into well regarded dramas with an edge with the likes of “A History of Violence,” “Eastern Promises” and “A Dangerous Method”. "



David Cronenberg: ‘I’m cheap and available’
"Walter, the character played by David Cronenberg in Albert Shin’s new horror-thriller Disappearance at Clifton Hill, gets an introduction befitting the film-maker’s legendary stature"



Cameo role in this episode(/season), don't really see him committing to a Series role for S31?

TheValeyard

I take it since with a an Enterprise J by the 2600s, and only getting a Voyager J by 3100s, that the Voyager ships exploded far less than the Enterprise

Agent Coulson

I always love when David Cronenberg pops up as an actor something he should have done more often over the years.

ilovesmybrick

TheValeyard wrote: »

I take it since with a an Enterprise J by the 2600s, and only getting a Voyager J by 3100s, that the Voyager ships exploded far less than the Enterprise

Yes, the variable pylons of Voyager, and used in subsequent ships of that name, cut down on the need for explodium by almost 60%!

Sleepy

TheValeyard wrote: »

I take it since with a an Enterprise J by the 2600s, and only getting a Voyager J by 3100s, that the Voyager ships exploded far less than the Enterprise

To be fair, that makes sense to me: the flagship of any fleet is going to see battle more than a long range explorer...

Would have been nice to get more than a pass-away comment on retrofitting the ship. Are we to assume the Discovery is now capable of holding it's own in battle in this time? Or will they still be little more than an (extremely fast) lightly armoured scout class ship?

Goodshape

Thoroughly enjoyed that!!

Wow. It's only taken them 34 episodes but finally, it feels like Star Trek. This should have been S03E01, 02 at most.

Spear

Goodshape wrote: »

Thoroughly enjoyed that!!

Wow. It's only taken them 34 episodes but finally, it feels like Star Trek. This should have been S03E01, 02 at most.

It'd have been preferable if episodes 1+2 were merged, and 3+4 were merged. The stories would have worked better if they ran in parallel in each episode instead. It's only now we're getting hints of the larger mystery with the pattern of the lullaby appearing.

corkie

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

It's also a pity to lose Nhan, though I would wonder if she reappears later in the season.

Surprise I didn't recognize 'Rachael Ancheril' from her time in 'KillJoys'.



The Price was the only other episode of TNG which I can remember featuring the Barzan's?



Unfortunately Discovery track record of developing a character only to write them off/out doesn't look good for her return?

FutureGuy

corkie wrote: »

Surprise I didn't recognize 'Rachael Ancheril' from her time in 'KillJoys'.



The Price was the only other episode of TNG which I can remember featuring the Barzan's?



Unfortunately Discovery track record of developing a character only to write them off/out doesn't look good for her return?

Good riddance

Optimus Prime

That to me was the first episode in 3 seasons that felt truly like Star Trek to me. Really loved that one. The way the crew all worked together and interacted. The USS Voyager and USS Nog to boot.

GSPfan

The Good Bits:

Really love the future setting. Feels right.

Saru is very calming as a captain, I really like him.

Saru calling out Burnham when she suggested going rogue again was great. She never learns.

The Voyager reference.


The Bad Bits:

Michael Burnham is a patronising obnoxious smarmy irritant of a person.

This song thing is going to be the key to everything and Burnham is going to be the one in the middle of it.

“The Burn” is already annoying me as I bet it was the Federation that caused it. Either that or The Burn is something to do with BURNham. Maybe that red angel suit did something.

The crew telling us how brilliant they are and how amazing they work together is cringey. Lots of half smiles and quips to each other when last week they were at each others throats.

These guys have jumped 900 years in to the future and they don’t seem out of place at all. 900 years of advancement so you’d think the Discovery crew would be out of step with everything. Nah they seem fine.

No real mention of the fact that Discovery seems to have a sentient AI in its computer?

No one from the future is bothered that Discovery has a Spore Drive that could be replicated to fit the other ships? They’ve already set up for Tilly to crack the technology to allow for the drive to be used without Stamets so I’m sure the future folk could help.

Slydice

I liked that episode. I liked the Voyager J nod to the Enterprise J

Still so many questions. I assume the song is an encoded message left by her mother now. Probably more time travel ahead.

Then no sign of Adira after she was taken away. Hrmmmm...

Can they PLEASE stop the breathless delivery, of lines?

Michael has shown that she has not changed at all and is ready to do as she damn well wants, orders be damned.
Seed bank was tiny, could have been brought on-board.

Why are NONE of the DSC crew struggling to manage tech a 1000 years in the future?

Sesshoumaru

I rather liked that episode for all the reasons others have mentioned. One thing I did pick up on was the admiral saying they 'no longer have 5 year missions' and my impression is that Starfleet is doing a lot of fighting off bandits and helping remaining Federation planets limp along. The fact that they don't do science missions anymore kind of reduced the cringe factor when the Discovery team were doing their science thing to solve the issue with that guy who was 'out of phase' or whatever.

I just think if Starfleet aren't out there exploring anymore for the last 120 years. Maybe they don't actually have a lot of science officers on their starships anymore? Just seemed an okay explanation to me as to why the admirals assistant who tagged along on Discovery might have been impressed when the Discovery team were able to work out what happened to that guy. I mean Discovery is a science vessel and possibly the only Starfleet science vessel left in Federation, crewed by people who are primarily scientists?

Anyway, just my take away on how Discovery might be useful in the future now beyond having the spore drive.

Another point I was thinking about was the fact that there wasn't all that many ships at Starfleet HQ. If anything dilithium powered blew up 120 years ago... That's all starships and starbases gone. Maybe some bigger ground based installations as well? Does Starfleet / the Federation even have much shipbuilding capacity? Considering the burn was 120 years ago - if dilithium is very rare and they haven't found a replacement yet - would they even maintain a large industrial base for shipbuilding if they only have enough dilithium to power a small number of ships? It could be why they're not ripping the discovery apart already to see how she works. Starfleet ships tended to stick around a long time, maybe they only have a very small ship building capacity? Just my thoughts anyway!

Oh yeah Saru is really great. I love this character more and more with each episode. He is growing into a proper starfleet captain. I look forward ot seeing him in next weeks episode -

I hope based on other preview Burnham isn't running off against orders again!

The White Wolf

Michelle Yeoh really is brutal.

CastorTroy

If a small bit of a song gets Burnham so worked up, better hope she never hears music from the past decade or more where so much is sampled. Sure Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, Baa Baa Black Sheep and the Alphabet song all have the same tune.

Maybe she can go to this place

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EyadKDhgBU

mikhail

I enjoyed that, Burnham aside.

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Could you imagine any other of the Captains (Picard, Sisko, Janeway) let them selves be cuckold the way Burnham does to Saru?

GSPfan wrote: »

Saru calling out Burnham when she suggested going rogue again was great. She never learns.

...

Michael Burnham is a patronising obnoxious smarmy irritant of a person.

Deleted User wrote: »

Michael has shown that she has not changed at all and is ready to do as she damn well wants, orders be damned.

Whatever about Saru, who is very diplomatic and has previously worked under her, the way she speaks to the admiral is pretty much grounds for a flogging in most companies, much less military organisations. She was close to mutiny again around 5 minutes into arriving at Starfleet headquarters. She has no discipline whatsoever. The show talks about all these Federation ideas, but she's a complete individualist, the embodiment of some American fantasy of self-empowerment and exceptionalism. She's the cancer at the heart of all the weakest parts of the series, this year especially as the rest of the show is outgrowing her.

Did I miss something? Why the hell did she, and not Saru, command the Discovery mission to the seed bank?

PirateShampoo wrote: »

More bloody tears....

Deleted User wrote: »

Can they PLEASE stop the breathless delivery, of lines?

It's still mostly Burnham, but yeah, the emotions of the show ring utterly false to me. Everyone's a harsh word from a breakdown, haunted by their past, and all that. They just seem immature and unreliable. Saru stands out because he's calm. Georgio too, though that gimmick has run its course.

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Oh look, 900 years into the future and I'll blink to short circuit the holograms.

Yeah, that was just silly. Why would she know anything about the technological flaws of their tech? Whatever about crew being able to operate futuristic equipment, this is too much.

In spite of that moment, I enjoyed the scene with Cronenberg, who came across as an interesting character. I don't really trust them to develop it well, but for now, I'll happily see where it goes.

PirateShampoo wrote: »

And i hope they arnt going to rip off BSG with the music plot.

GSPfan wrote: »

This song thing is going to be the key to everything and Burnham is going to be the one in the middle of it.

GSPfan wrote: »

“The Burn” is already annoying me as I bet it was the Federation that caused it. Either that or The Burn is something to do with BURNham. Maybe that red angel suit did something.

I fear that the music thing is going to be painfully stupid. It'll be the key to understanding, maybe even somehow fixing "the burn" and it will be arrived at with a wide-eyed, breathless expurgation of exposition.

GSPfan wrote: »

The crew telling us how brilliant they are and how amazing they work together is cringey. Lots of half smiles and quips to each other when last week they were at each others throats.

The writers consistently violate the screenwriting principle of "show, don't tell". "You're not going to talk me out of it" "A year ago, I would have." :pac:

No one from the future is bothered that Discovery has a Spore Drive that could be replicated to fit the other ships? They’ve already set up for Tilly to crack the technology to allow for the drive to be used without Stamets so I’m sure the future folk could help.

This is kind of staggeringly incompetent writing. That fact should have been met with excitement! It's a tech that could undo the damage of "the Burn" to their entire civilisation, and they talk about it like it's slightly interesting. Then you'd have the admiral's long-term priorities conflicting with the short term need to deal with the medical crisis of the week, instead of institutional stonewalling vs Burnham's doe-eyed and breathless demanding to help.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

...I mean Discovery is a science vessel and possibly the only Starfleet science vessel left in Federation, crewed by people who are primarily scientists?

Anyway, just my take away on how Discovery might be useful in the future now beyond having the spore drive.

That's a good point. I think the spore drive has to be central. In a galaxy where everyone is unreachable, they can put pieces together, be it information or technology or whatever. No deus ex machina, no one's mum or stepbrother, or whatever, just a simple technological advantage used logically to advance the plot.

CastorTroy

mikhail wrote: »

Did I miss something? Why the hell did she, and not Saru, command the Discovery mission to the seed bank?

Saru offered to stay as assurance while Michael went to the seed bank.

mikhail wrote: »

That's a good point. I think the spore drive has to be central. In a galaxy where everyone is unreachable, they can put pieces together, be it information or technology or whatever. No deus ex machina, no one's mum or stepbrother, or whatever, just a simple technological advantage used logically to advance the plot.

Except they've now implied her mum may be in that future somewhere.

I was nearly beginning to think Culbert mightn't be real and can only be seen by the Discovery crew the way they use him. Last week, not going to Trill. And now this week they have him tell Burnham to tell the guy that his family is dead. Why send her and not tell him himself. I think I would want to hear from someone who knows what they're talking about than someone raised by Vulcans.
But he treated the alien at the end, so clearly real.

Found it funny after we were discussing last week how to refer to Adira, they kept referring to the ships as she/her

flazio

Glasses guy must be Terran. Remember Lorcas sensitivity to light? The glasses are probably there to counteract that.

Wasn't as fond of this one as I was last week. Would anyone here expect a Doctor from the 11th century to find a vaccine for Covid 19? So how could you expect a 900 year old Doctor to cure those people?
Still no sign of one of the core Federation species, the Vulcans. Or for that matter, the Klingons or the Romulans, Cardassians, Bajorans? What about The Borg? There's still a lot of what we know as the Federation unaccounted for.
Their attitude once they arrived at HQ practically sucked. If a Roman fleet suggested they could get us back on track they could go and do one. They come from a revered period of history? How could they know that? Attitudes had way more advanced when we got to the TNG/DS9/VOY eras. This time it wasn't just Michael, it was Saru as well.
Once they went on mission it improved although I'm sorry to see Nahn go.

flazio

flazio wrote: »

Glasses guy must be Terran. Remember Lorcas sensitivity to light? The glasses are probably there to counteract that.

Wasn't as fond of this one as I was last week. Would anyone here expect a Doctor from the 11th century to find a vaccine for Covid 19? So how could you expect a 900 year old Doctor to cure those people?
Still no sign of one of the core Federation species, the Vulcans. Or for that matter, the Klingons or the Romulans, Cardassians, Bajorans? What about The Borg? There's still a lot of what we know as the Federation unaccounted for.
Their attitude once they arrived at HQ practically sucked. If a Roman fleet suggested they could get us back on track they could go and do one. They come from a revered period of history? How could they know that? Attitudes had way more advanced when we got to the TNG/DS9/VOY eras. This time it wasn't just Michael, it was Saru as well.
Once they went on mission it improved although I'm sorry to see Nahn go.

I've an issue with their ease of use of the tech but it was called out as a "simple" prion disease and they only needed a regular version of the deformed protein. Easy enough for their tech.
Why they needed the seed and not have protein sequences, already? Nit pick by me

Anyone thinking thar Federation tech development has REALLY stagnated?
They could have gone just 50 years beyond Nemesis and you wouldn't feel out of place.

Remember the Tardis/Poppins bigger on inside tech Daniels had on Enterprise and these guys are supposedly further along

ilovesmybrick

Deleted User wrote: »

Remember the Tardis/Poppins bigger on inside tech Daniels had on Enterprise and these guys are supposedly further along

Honestly I'm happy to leave that Daniels stuff in the past and forget about it, never worked for me, from his awful uniform to the storyline itself.