Discovery 3x05 'Die Trying' ~~ { ** Spoilers Within ** }

alchemist33

bluewolf wrote: »

Another nod to the viewers when the holo calls Michael emotionally overwrought
Then the admiral starts telling her to cop on. Great
Then Michael insists on getting her way and starts the intense whispering and crying again
And nhan tells her nobody ever reaches for the best like she does. U wot m8

Great ep other than Michael. And georgiou

I honestly think someone in the writing dept is trolling us now. Two weeks in a row where Burnham has been catapulted into an arc as the protagonist when someone else was originally meant to be there. They know many viewers don't like the focus on her and they're sticking two fingers up.

It also feels like there are two separate writing groups - one handling the overall arc, which was good this week; and one for character development which is atrocious, as many have commented on here. The worst was last season when Airiam heroically died and we were meant to feel sad, but she'd been anonymous up until then, the robot one to go with asian guy and african woman on the bridge. Don't expect an emotional impact from a death if you only know the character 30 minutes beforehand.

breezy1985

Spear wrote: »

The visual paradox to be used as a virus in I, Borg.

It wasnt just showing them a picture thats some serious exaggeration. It was an invasive paradoxical program downloaded into a captured Borgs brain and we now know the Borg have a fail safe that cuts off the infected cube so it wouldnt really have caused the Borg much harm.


Nowhere near comparable to F ing blinking at them

Stark

breezy1985 wrote: »

Whats the Borg shape thing I dont remember that

From "I, Borg". In fairness, they never actually tested it and it probably wouldn't have worked anyway. Time and time again it's been shown they simply cut off the infected cube from the collective if some sort of virus gets in.

What actually happened was more ridiculous. "Oh the Borg got a taste of individuality that made them go mad". As if they hadn't already assimilated billions of unwilling individuals.

Banana Republic 1

breezy1985 wrote: »

It wasnt just showing them a picture thats some serious exaggeration. It was an invasive paradoxical program downloaded into a captured Borgs brain and we now know the Borg have a fail safe that cuts off the infected cube so it wouldnt really have caused the Borg much harm.


Nowhere near comparable to F ing blinking at them

The actor who played the Borg Hugh in TNG is one of the writers on the show. It was a mistake that time Picard letting him go it has come back to haunt them now.

440Hertz

breezy1985 wrote: »

Whats the Borg shape thing I dont remember that

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Invasive_program

Defeated by a puzzle as apparently only humans can deal with paradoxes...

To be fair, it is ludicrous that such a simple solution could take down the Borg or anything else like that.

Star Trek relies on leaps of nonsense all the time as it’s sci fi.

There’s loads of examples of it: Commander Data having an easily accessible off switch. The Vulcan death grip. Q in general. The fact the Holodeck keeps trying to kill them and they they create what seem to be sentient beings on it and then just thoughtlessly erase them at a whim. Various aspects of science that don’t even remotely hold up it make any sense. Vison Quests ... convenient spatial or temporal anomalies ... there’s a laundry list of stuff like that.

mikhail

440Hertz wrote: »

If you think about it in terms of reality of how technology has developed over the last 2000+ years in our society, not a hell of a lot changed from Roman times until the 19th century. If anything, a lot of the world went backwards for several centuries.

This is a complete aside, but I find it interesting, so here goes. I'm not expert on this topic, but I think you're exaggerating that a lot. Rome falls in the 5th century, and as far as I know there is a bit of a lull technologically there, but I'm aware of some examples that may provide some context. By the 11th or 12th century we're making eyeglasses for vision correction, by the 17th century we're making microscopes and telescopes, both of which help drive the Renaissance by providing information to natural philosophers. Water mills are invented around the 11th century too, and are the first step toward the industrial revolution. Developments in gunpowder, metallurgy and consequently in the construction of cannon are factors in the fall of Constantinople (1453), a fortress city that had repelled around 20 previous sieges. Advances in shipbuilding and navigation drive the age of exploration in the 16th century, and while I couldn't give you all the steps there's a clear divide technologically between the slave-rowed galleys that were the state of the art in the Battle of Lepanto (1571) and the sailing ships of the line of the Napoleonic wars a little over two centuries later. The conventional start of the industrial revolution is some time in the 18th century, not the 19th, when machines like the Spinning Jenny and Watt's improvements to the steam engine. I don't have any real sense of how farming has come on, but enclosure in the UK and Ireland starts as early as the 13th century and is fairly complete by the early 19th. Gutenburg's bible is the marker people use for the printing press (in Europe), and that's in the 1440s. So all told, I'd argue that Europe has been noticeably improving technologically for at least five centuries, not two, and that there are traces of that even nine centuries ago.

breezy1985

alchemist33 wrote: »

I honestly think someone in the writing dept is trolling us now. Two weeks in a row where Burnham has been catapulted into an arc as the protagonist when someone else was originally meant to be there. They know many viewers don't like the focus on her and they're sticking two fingers up.

It also feels like there are two separate writing groups - one handling the overall arc, which was good this week; and one for character development which is atrocious, as many have commented on here. The worst was last season when Airiam heroically died and we were meant to feel sad, but she'd been anonymous up until then, the robot one to go with asian guy and african woman on the bridge. Don't expect an emotional impact from a death if you only know the character 30 minutes beforehand.

Theres less crying and forced emotion in the DS9 goodbyes or Neelix leaving than you get for every background ejit in DIS and those had 7 years build up. They just want big moments every episode and dont know how or are too impatient to put the work in

Stark

Neelix leaving was a cause for celebration though Just a pity it didn't happen 7 seasons earlier. I wonder did they ever send him a message just before they got back to the Alpha quadrant or was he just left there wondering why they stopped showing up for their subspace catch-ups.

breezy1985

Stark wrote: »

Neelix leaving was a cause for celebration though Just a pity it didn't happen 7 seasons earlier.

Tuvok was so happy he danced a jig

440Hertz

Stark wrote: »

Neelix leaving was a cause for celebration though Just a pity it didn't happen 7 seasons earlier. I wonder did they ever send him a message just before they got back to the Alpha quadrant or was he just left there wondering why they stopped showing up for their subspace catch-ups.

Tilly is the new Neelix

Stark

breezy1985 wrote: »

Tuvok was so happy he danced a jig

"Remember I was inside you once Mr. Vulcan. We shared our DNA".

"Yes thank you, Neelix. You may depart Voyager though the airlock instead of the transporter if you so prefer".

440Hertz

The one thing I would say is at least they don’t do this awful TNG parties where someone plays the flute or the sax, or does some painfully awful performance and everyone looks like they’re having about as much fun as at someone wedding that nobody wanted to go to.

They at least had a realistic fight at the dinner table.

pixelburp

440Hertz wrote: »

The one thing I would say is at least they don’t do this awful TNG parties where someone plays the flute or the sax and everyone looks like they’re having about as much fun as at someone wedding that nobody wanted to go to.

I always found it bizarre how joyless and staid TNG downtime came across. The 10 Forward idea was cool, but rarely used well IMO. Romances felt positively chaste and inert, while, as you say, "fun" seemed to consist of watching flute recitals and bad Shakespeare productions. Never expected cage matches or giant orgies but the writers would choose odd pastimes or ideas of sexuality that lacked connection with the audience (flutists notwithstanding)

Stark

I really liked the Lower Decks send up of that with "senior officers' mic night"

breezy1985

pixelburp wrote: »

I always found it bizarre how joyless and staid TNG downtime came across. The 10 Forward idea was cool, but rarely used well IMO. Romances felt positively chaste and inert, while, as you say, "fun" seemed to consist of watching flute recitals and bad Shakespeare productions. Never expected cage matches or giant orgies but the writers would choose odd pastimes or ideas of sexuality that lacked connection with the audience (flutists notwithstanding)

What about O'Brien gettin pissed alone brooding and singing The Minstrel Boy.
Surely recognisable to any audience with experience of the Irish

440Hertz

Don’t get me started about their oIrish episodes. Begorrah! They were awful to be sure to be sure!

Although, Data’s Irish mammy was spot on.

breezy1985

440Hertz wrote: »

Don’t get me started about their oIrish episodes. Begorrah! They were awful to be sure to be sure!

Although, Data’s Irish mammy was spot on.

Thats not an Irish epsode I was talking about. Its a really good one where they are chasing down O'Briens old Cardassian war commander

corkie

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Also USS Nog so a thumbs up for that

Optimus Prime wrote: »

The USS Voyager and USS Nog to boot.

"The USS Nog (NCC-325070) was a 32nd century Federation starship operated by Starfleet. In 3189, it was stationed at Federation Headquarters. (DIS: "Die Trying")

According to Alex Kurtzman, the ship was named after Starfleet officer Nog, and it is an Eisenberg-class vessel, named in tribute to the actor. [1]
The Nog has the second highest registry number of Federation starships, after the USS Relativity (NCV-474439-G)."
^^^ https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Nog

Do we know more about 'USS Nog' than 'USS Voyager J'?

"TrekCore has reported that CBS confirmed the Voyager-J to be a 32nd century Intrepid-class vessel. [1]"
^^^ https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Voyager_(NCC-74656-J)

flazio wrote: »

Glasses guy must be Terran. Remember Lorcas sensitivity to light? The glasses are probably there to counteract that.

Even lorca didn't wear glasses (maybe contacts?), 'Kovich' also said there had not been a (known) cross over in 500 years, if he was telling the truth?, that would make him be a very old Terran (or a time traveler himself).

440Hertz

pixelburp wrote: »

I always found it bizarre how joyless and staid TNG downtime came across. The 10 Forward idea was cool, but rarely used well IMO. Romances felt positively chaste and inert, while, as you say, "fun" seemed to consist of watching flute recitals and bad Shakespeare productions. Never expected cage matches or giant orgies but the writers would choose odd pastimes or ideas of sexuality that lacked connection with the audience (flutists notwithstanding)

It’s like the humans were competing with the Vulcans for who can be the haughtiest and most starchy.

Mrs Troi always had me thinking, just move to Betazed. The rest of them are no craic!

Most of the romances would have had a Victorian novelist thinking it was a bit buttoned up.

Even on Voyager the romances were oddly starchy and it seems captains were wedded to their ships and had no social lives, if both Picard & Janeway are anything to go by.

Poor Harry Kim seemed to be on the end of all sorts of sexual tension with his endless dating problems, Seven of Nine problems and a definite thread of some kind of tense space bromance with Tom Paris. He’d have had a much better time on Discovery, without the conservative US network TV “must be suitable for Sister Assumpta’s tea time viewing” requirements that the TNG era stuff was hemmed in by.

To be fair to Discovery it’s a least a bit more human in some respects - particularly around the social interactions.

breezy1985

corkie wrote: »

"The USS Nog (NCC-325070) was a 32nd century Federation starship operated by Starfleet. In 3189, it was stationed at Federation Headquarters. (DIS: "Die Trying")

According to Alex Kurtzman, the ship was named after Starfleet officer Nog, and it is an Eisenberg-class vessel, named in tribute to the actor. [1]
The Nog has the second highest registry number of Federation starships, after the USS Relativity (NCV-474439-G)."
^^^ https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Nog

Do we know more about 'USS Nog' than 'USS Voyager J'?

"TrekCore has reported that CBS confirmed the Voyager-J to be a 32nd century Intrepid-class vessel. [1]"
^^^ https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Voyager_(NCC-74656-J)


Even lorca didn't wear glasses (maybe contacts?), 'Kovich' also said there had not been a cross over in 500 years, if he was telling the truth?, that would make him be a very old Terran.

Has Georgiou had surgery for her eyes in the show? Cause SF command was hurting my eyes never mind a Terran

Banana Republic 1

breezy1985 wrote: »

Theres less crying and forced emotion in the DS9 goodbyes or Neelix leaving than you get for every background ejit in DIS and those had 7 years build up. They just want big moments every episode and dont know how or are too impatient to put the work in

Background ejit lol

Banana Republic 1

440Hertz wrote: »

It’s like the humans were competing with the Vulcans for who can be the haughtiest and most starchy.

Mrs Troi always had me thinking, just move to Betazed. The rest of them are no craic!

Most of the romances would have had a Victorian novelist thinking it was a bit buttoned up.

Even on Voyager the romances were oddly starchy and it seems captains were wedded to their ships and had no social lives, if both Picard & Janeway are anything to go by.

Poor Harry Kim seemed to be on the end of all sorts of sexual tension with his endless dating problems, Seven of Nine problems and a definite thread of some kind of tense space bromance with Tom Paris. He’d have had a much better time on Discovery, without the conservative US network TV “must be suitable for Sister Assumpta’s tea time viewing” requirements that the TNG era stuff was hemmed in by.

To be fair to Discovery it’s a least a bit more human in some respects - particularly around the social interactions.

Riker and Data had some good comic scenes thought. Remember when Picard asked data to evaluate his painting or at the end of the Picard/galin episode. The were very rare though.

Banana Republic 1

pixelburp wrote: »

I always found it bizarre how joyless and staid TNG downtime came across. The 10 Forward idea was cool, but rarely used well IMO. Romances felt positively chaste and inert, while, as you say, "fun" seemed to consist of watching flute recitals and bad Shakespeare productions. Never expected cage matches or giant orgies but the writers would choose odd pastimes or ideas of sexuality that lacked connection with the audience (flutists notwithstanding)

Rikers saxophone was more dynamic then Georgiou though

~Rebel~

440Hertz wrote: »

It’s like the humans were competing with the Vulcans for who can be the haughtiest and most starchy.

Mrs Troi always had me thinking, just move to Betazed. The rest of them are no craic!

Most of the romances would have had a Victorian novelist thinking it was a bit buttoned up.

Even on Voyager the romances were oddly starchy and it seems captains were wedded to their ships and had no social lives, if both Picard & Janeway are anything to go by.

Poor Harry Kim seemed to be on the end of all sorts of sexual tension with his endless dating problems, Seven of Nine problems and a definite thread of some kind of tense space bromance with Tom Paris. He’d have had a much better time on Discovery, without the conservative US network TV “must be suitable for Sister Assumpta’s tea time viewing” requirements that the TNG era stuff was hemmed in by.

To be fair to Discovery it’s a least a bit more human in some respects - particularly around the social interactions.

I find the Discovery ones to be a million miles off the other direction though. There's never any normal moments, everything is up at 10 or nothing at all. Which is why we still don't really have a feel for half of 'em. I'd love an auld few quiet chats or someone struggling through a flute recital at this stage!

Think a big part of the problem is the Bridge.. the layout is really bad for bringing in multiple peoples reactions and personalities. It's insanely spread out, with people facing every direction, and the lighting is really distracting. Think of the Enterprise, or Voyager, or any other ship, and you have one main view from which you can clearly see at least 4 or 5 people, and how they feel. And all their tighter angles still bring in at least 2 or 3 people. In Disco you only see the person they're focused on, and even at that the camera is constantly on the move so you never even get to register their emotion. There was a nice little moment between Owo and Detmer that took 3 or 4 separate shots to convey, which would have been done in 1 on another show. The one place things work is in Engineering/Spore gaf, where the lighting and location are more like old trek... it's tighter, we can see them all at once, and it's easier to get a sense of them. I think this is part of the reason why those characters are far better established than the bridge crew.

Previous Trek has always had a very simple but very efficient sense of visual storytelling through the framing and blocking. Disco - especially the bridge - is the exact opposite.

The White Wolf

Are there really talks of Michelle Yeoh getting a spin off show? **** me.

TheValeyard

Was a grand episode.


As I said early, Voyager J definitely less explody than Enterpriseseseses.

Future Starbase was cool

Strange odd ships, cool, makes sense, it's the future.

Nod to Nog, awesome. Registry very high number?

Definitely stinks of season 1 and 2 of Andromeda.

Less Michael please.

Saru is a good Captain.

Pity Nhan is gone, she was decent.

Emperor needs an exit. Role done. Pointless, but knowledge of Terran by glasses guy is interesting. Probably S31, or part of the Terran Commonwealth.

Seed ship make sense.

Holograms should be more advanced by this stage and have full federation citizen rights.

No Androids?

Stark

Apparently the USS Nog is "Eisenberg" class so extra cool.

What’s the Nog thing?

PirateShampoo

The more I think of it the more the Spore Drive is a disaster for the show.

It's the Peter Petrelli (Heros) of Disco.

The ship rocks up to Federation HQ, the solution to every single problem since the burn. A engine that can return the Federation to the dominant power in the Quadrant, probably within a year or two, but no **** it. Send the ship to retrieve a seed.

Anyone with half a brain would have had that ship stripped in weeks.

Spear

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

What’s the Nog thing?

The DS9 character played by Aron Eisenberg, who died a year ago, aged 50.