England v Republic of Ireland - Match Thread - 8pm 12/11/20 - RTE

Witcher

edgecutter wrote: »

Did you seriously think we not get beaten tonight?

There's being beaten and there's being flogged and we got the latter.

Oat23

weldoninhio wrote: »

Even a 17yo got a run out.

"A 17yo"

He cost upwards of €30m and is better than any player we have to be fair.

~Rebel~

weldoninhio wrote: »

Even a 17yo got a run out.

True, though to be fair he’s a 25 million pound 17 year old who starts for Dortmund...

edgecutter

Witcher wrote: »

There's being beaten and there's being flogged and we got the latter.

Compare the players from both sides. Did you really think that we would challenge? England have players that are scoring goals regularly in the Premier League, we're lucky if we have someone banging them in League One.

Zeek12

omega man wrote: »

I’d rather see Stephen Kenny as manager for life than listen to Cunningham as a commentator for even 1 more Ireland match.

100%.
Cunningham is desperate. Makes Ronnie Whelan sound like a genius!

edgecutter

Just a reminder again, we should be playing against the North tonight. That game against Slovakia was on the players not being able to hit a barn door when 6 feet in front of goal.

edgecutter

edgecutter wrote: »

Just a reminder again, we should be playing against the North tonight. That game against Slovakia was on the players not being able to hit a barn door when 6 feet in front of goal.

And the FAI not keeping them 6 feet apart...:mad:

johnnyryan89

edgecutter wrote: »

Compare the players from both sides. Did you really think that we would challenge? England have players that are scoring goals regularly in the Premier League, we're lucky if we have someone banging them in League One.

Calvert Lewin is joint top scorer in the league with Vardy. Yet neither would start if you were to name England's best XI. Even have lads like Wilson, Watkins, Ings that have 5, 6 and 7 league goals so far.

johnnyryan89

Deleted User wrote: »

And the FAI not keeping them 6 feet apart...:mad:

Yes, naughty FAI for not holding the players by the hand and walking them to their seats. If the lads didn't buckle their belts on take off or landing you'd probably be complaining that no one from the FAI was on hand to help them fasten their belts.

weldoninhio

Oat23 wrote: »

"A 17yo"

He cost upwards of €30m and is better than any player we have to be fair.

How do you know? How many time have you seen him play??

tayto lover

Some of the comments here make me laugh.
Do lads seriously think that we could match the likes of England with the gulf in the class of player we have compared to theirs.

Maybe if we returned to the hoofball we could have had the ball in the air longer and thus have only lost 2 nil.

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right ...

Mr.Nice Guy

sugarman wrote: »

He doesnt really have a point though, more of an agenda against Kenny from the get go. I wouldnt pay too much attention to what he has to say, hes one of many that are only too happy to see not do well just so they can have a pop.

We've been a very poor side since 2017 under 3 different managers now, the common factor is the players we have available. Theyre just a very average bunch with little creativity and absolutely no goalscorers.

Would have expected a better comment than that from yourself.

My agenda is to see the side do well. Maybe those who want to blindly stick by a coach that has done nothing to warrant such a staunch defence are the ones with the agenda? How many games exactly does he have to be given before his supporters will countenance the possibility - the mere possibility - that maybe he is not everything he has been built up to be, and is actually Staunton 2.0?

Kermit.de.frog

Hire League of Ireland, get League of Ireland.

Time's fast running out for me anyway in terms of Kenny's "project".

Results matter.

(Although as I said I think this was an ill advised friendly the FAI agreed to)

Faugheen

weldoninhio wrote: »

How do you know? How many time have you seen him play??

How many times have you seen him play?

He is better than any midfielder we have, and I have seen him play plenty of times between his times at Birmingham and Dortmund.

Seriously, you dismissed Bellingham as ‘a 17yo’ and you have the neck to ask someone how often they have seen him play.

sonic85

sugarman wrote: »

He doesnt really have a point though, more of an agenda against Kenny from the get go. I wouldnt pay too much attention to what he has to say, hes one of many that are only too happy to see not do well just so they can have a pop.

We've been a very poor side since 2017 under 3 different managers now, the common factor is the players we have available. Theyre just a very average bunch with little creativity and absolutely no goalscorers.

100% agree. This is what we'll have to look forward to for the forseeable future every time Ireland play - all the people with axes to grind just waiting to have a cut. I'm hoping Kenny is in the job for a long while yet - the reaction will be hilarious

kona

The result tonite, taken on its own is dissapointing, usually we put it up to england and get something, ive never seen us lose to them until tonite. But I can understand it, we just dont have the players.

The biggest problem I have is that, we now think we are going to try play possesion ball, attacking pretty football, all while going 5 games without scoring and even then not even looking like scoring, thats the problem.
Surely by law of averages wed have gotten something by now if we were creating.

PTH2009

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Hire League of Ireland, get League of Ireland.

Time's fast running out for me anyway in terms of Kenny's "project".

Results matter.

cant see him getting the sack or resigning other than losing to a 5th/6th seed early in the World Cup qualifiers and that leaves us in a bit of a mess

Qualification for Euro 2024 is our next realistic chance of getting to a major finals but if we get the wrong draw. Been in League C might work in our favour in terms of playoffs (if that is still around in 2023/24)

Esse85

Could another manager get more out of these players is the question?

I think the players are giving their all, unfortunately their all is just miles off the top teams.

If the best international manager who ever that is took over this squad, there would be very little difference in results or performance.

Utopia Parkway

Scoring a goal would be a start. Two more games to get one.

Kermit.de.frog

Esse85 wrote: »

Could another manager get more out of these players is the question?

True all we can do is give ourselves the best chance.


I know McGoldrick said he wanted to concentrate on club football but, come on, if he thought this was going anywhere I don't think he'd have retired.

It's just depressing really.

thenightman

crushproof wrote: »

Exactly, goes to show the gulf between the teams and how grim the future looks for Irish football.
Kenny is a good manager but the pool of players is brutal, do any of our keepers even play first team football?

No. Randolph can't get a game at West Ham or Travers at Bournemouth. There was high hopes for Kelleher if he went out on loan to a Dutch side this season, but Allison getting injured early in the season put paid to that. Strange for us, we've always had a decent to very good keeper getting regular football. Truly struggling for quality all over the pitch these days, sadly.

weldoninhio

Faugheen wrote: »

How many times have you seen him play?

He is better than any midfielder we have, and I have seen him play plenty of times between his times at Birmingham and Dortmund.

Seriously, you dismissed Bellingham as ‘a 17yo’ and you have the neck to ask someone how often they have seen him play.

He’s is a 17yo.

Pete Moss

Esse85 wrote:

I think the players are giving their all, unfortunately their all is just miles off the top teams.

Wales, Slovakia and Finland are not top teams. We'd poor results against them. England would be up there, but the other teams played so far are nowhere near top level.

~Rebel~

Ultimately, our biggest problem is goals. And I’ve no idea where they’re going to come from given the players we have to choose from up front. And I don’t see what another manager can do to turn lads who don’t score goals for club or country into lads that do.

So that being the case, with our brightest sparks being young players, I’m happy enough to give more time to the guy who has been working with these young players at youth level for a while and had them doing well there. They know him, and understand him, and have shown previously that they’ll perform for him.

I’d at least give him a year anyway. Piling on pressure any sooner is not good for young players who have enough to worry about. More often than not we’ve played well enough that if the goals start to come, you could see a quick turnaround.

DJIMI TRARORE

We'll have to stick with SK, remember when oneill took over NI, they couldn't score or win a game for ages, but it came good eventually

johnnyryan89

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

Yes, naughty FAI for not holding the players by the hand and walking them to their seats. If the lads didn't buckle their belts on take off or landing you'd probably be complaining that no one from the FAI was on hand to help them fasten their belts.

Teenage footballers probably know about putting on belts. But rely on their employer's Covid officers to know the Covid rules.

On the school tour, you'd be the guy at the front of the bus complaining that not everyone was sitting in their seats.

weldoninhio

DJIMI TRARORE wrote: »

We'll have to stick with SK, remember when oneill took over NI, they couldn't score or win a game for ages, but it came good eventually

O’Neill and Kenny are different people. Should we have stuck with Staunton because Ferguson took ages to win anything with United??

Fromvert

We can't just play one way against every team, only the best can get away with that.

Playing lower or similar ranked/ability teams to us - go ahead try and play football against them.

Playing higher ranked/better teams - we need to set up to make it a dog of a game for them, make them hate every second of it.

~Rebel~

weldoninhio wrote: »

O’Neill and Kenny are different people. Should we have stuck with Staunton because Ferguson took ages to win anything with United??

Even Stan was given 22 months.

DJIMI TRARORE

weldoninhio wrote:

O’Neill and Kenny are different people. Should we have stuck with Staunton because Ferguson took ages to win anything with United??

Definitely just for the post match interviews

Mr.Nice Guy

Esse85 wrote: »

If the best international manager who ever that is took over this squad, there would be very little difference in results or performance.

There would be a big difference because the best international manager ever wouldn't look at this squad and have us playing this style.

He also wouldn't pick the personnel Kenny has. Hendrick and Hourihane have started 5/6 games under this management. Both of them are nearing 30. Does anyone, even the most ardent Kenny backer, believe those two are the future of the national side? Do you really think another year or two of these lads in midfield is going to herald some dramatic transformation in how they play football? Look at it dispassionately.

We ditched a pragmatic coach who who picked the above pragmatic players and replaced him with an idealist whose idealism involves picking the same pragmatic players. It's a recipe for disaster.

It's basically a Catch-22 situation for Kenny's supporters. If you believe his style is the right one, then why is it not working? If your answer is that he doesn't have the players for it, then why even have this coach who hasn't the tools at his disposal to make his philosophy work successfully?

weldoninhio

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Even Stan was given 22 months.

Exactly, hopefully we’ve learned from that. Time to pull the plug. The removal of the last last of Delaneys legacy.

~Rebel~

Fromvert wrote: »

We can't just play one way against every team, only the best can get away with that.

Playing lower or similar ranked/ability teams to us - go ahead try and play football against them.

Playing higher ranked/better teams - we need to set up to make it a dog of a game for them, make them hate every second of it.

Would agree with this - though we’ve not played a top team competitively yet so I would still expect that to be what we’ll do. Given the two games we have coming up, it made more sense to try to play the sort of game we’ll be playing against them anyway. Was just the wrong choice of opponent for this week, was really no good to come from it aside from tv money.

Pete Moss

Brayden Dirty Nature wrote:

Poor results but not poor performances. We were very unlucky in those games our finishing killed us.

Finishing wouldn't be part of a team's performance, no?

Fair enough, we've all seen one off games in which the better team lost where the ball just wouldn't go in, it happens- like the Slovakia in fairness. But failing to score against teams of a similar level does seem to reflect performing poorly in some aspects of the game.

~Rebel~

weldoninhio wrote: »

Exactly, hopefully we’ve learned from that. Time to pull the plug. The removal of the last last of Delaneys legacy.

For the reasons I went into on the previous page, I’d certainly give him a full year at least, for what he got out of these young players coming through at u-21 level alone.

~Rebel~

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

There would be a big difference because the best international manager ever wouldn't look at this squad and have us playing this style.

He also wouldn't pick the personnel Kenny has. Hendrick and Hourihane have started 5/6 games under this management. Both of them are nearing 30. Does anyone, even the most ardent Kenny backer, believe those two are the future of the national side? Do you really think another year or two of these lads in midfield is going to herald some dramatic transformation in how they play football? Look at it dispassionately.

We ditched a pragmatic coach who who picked the above pragmatic players and replaced him with an idealist whose idealism involves picking the same pragmatic players. It's a recipe for disaster.

It's basically a Catch-22 situation for Kenny's supporters. If you believe his style is the right one, then why is it not working? If your answer is that he doesn't have the players for it, then why even have this coach who hasn't the tools at his disposal to make his philosophy work successfully?

He’s changed so much about the attacking lineups that I can totally see the merit in keeping a little consistency in the midfield behind them to begin with. Would expect Molumby to be a nailed on starter in midfield by the end of this international window though.

For me, all the nations league games are for is the steady continuous transition to the team for the qualifiers.

weldoninhio

~Rebel~ wrote: »

For the reasons I went into on the previous page, I’d certainly give him a full year at least, for what he got out of these young players coming through at u-21 level alone.

He only had 12 games. He beat Luxembourg, China, Bahrain, Armenia twice and Sweden twice. That’s hardly setting the U-21 world alight ffs.

crossman47

Deleted User wrote: »

Don Givens?

That was random! I'd have gone for Duff, Robbie Keane, Staunton and about 25 more before I'd think about Givens!

Givens gave us one of our greatest days - hat trick v Russia

MattressRick

The reason we didn't get a tap in to go one up was Idah not breaking his arse to anticipate Horgan's ball in in that one piece of slick play we had in first ten mins. Idah was green, I wouldn't blame Kenny for that. Yet I think if we had gotten that goal we still would've been torn apart but the talk here wouldn't be as dismissive of Kenny. The goal would've come at least.

A bigger worry was the lack of bite by Ireland. No getting stuck in. That's down to Kenny and how he sent them out.

Oat23

weldoninhio wrote: »

He’s is a 17yo.

His age is irrelevant. I don't know why you keep saying it like it matters.

He's an elite player who will be a fixture in the English XI for the next 15 years probably.

~Rebel~

weldoninhio wrote: »

He only had 12 games. He beat Luxembourg, China, Bahrain, Armenia twice and Sweden twice. That’s hardly setting the U-21 world alight ffs.

I watched a lot of their games, and the performances were night and day with the era before. The quality of play continuously improved and got really good to watch. A loooot better to watch than the seniors at the time.

As I said, given that it’s those specific players coming through, I think that continuity for them is good for a year or so at last, and then see where we are.

weldoninhio

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I watched a lot of their games, and the performances were night and day with the era before. The quality of play continuously improved and got really good too watch. A loooot better to watch than the seniors at the time.

As I said, given that it’s those specific players coming through, I think that continuity for them is good.

How many of Kerrs 16s, 18s and 20s, who were actually successful made the breakthrough to play for top clubs and at international level? A handful maybe?

Esse85

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

There would be a big difference because the best international manager ever wouldn't look at this squad and have us playing this style.

He also wouldn't pick the personnel Kenny has. Hendrick and Hourihane have started 5/6 games under this management. Both of them are nearing 30. Does anyone, even the most ardent Kenny backer, believe those two are the future of the national side? Do you really think another year or two of these lads in midfield is going to herald some dramatic transformation in how they play football? Look at it dispassionately.

We ditched a pragmatic coach who who picked the above pragmatic players and replaced him with an idealist whose idealism involves picking the same pragmatic players. It's a recipe for disaster.

It's basically a Catch-22 situation for Kenny's supporters. If you believe his style is the right one, then why is it not working? If your answer is that he doesn't have the players for it, then why even have this coach who hasn't the tools at his disposal to make his philosophy work successfully?

I'm not a Kenny fan nor a hater.

Who is Kenny supposed to play instead of Hourihane and Hendricks?

Both scored in the Premier league this season at least.

What would the big difference you speak of be?

Hourihane is 29, Hendricks 28, still plenty of time on their side, neither is a speed merchant so not like they'll slow down further.

What realistic manager would you of preferred?

~Rebel~

weldoninhio wrote: »

How many of Kerrs 16s, 18s and 20s, who were actually successful made the breakthrough to play for top clubs and at international level? A handful maybe?

A handful is all we need for international football. We all pretty much already know the ones from his u21 team that are going to be featured over the next year or two anyway. Molumby, Connolly, Idah, Parrott, Knight, O’Shea Maybe one or two more, but those alone coming through would be huge. A few more then a step behind who might be in the running some time beyond (Connell, Coventry, Ronan, Masterson, Smallbone etc).

Francie Barrett

Lads, no combination of players that were available to us, or formation would have made much difference tonight. That England team were just different gravy, they were faster, stronger and more skilful. Everyone laughed at England for years, but this time they really do look like the real deal and the strength in depth that they have is just frightening. Luckily though, we won't have to play England every day, so I think it's ok to put this one behind us.

The focus now has to be on these last two Nations League games. While Wales would have a qualitative edge on us, this Bulgarian team that we're going to be playing after really are horrific. If we could even get a draw from Wales and win against Bulgaria, I'd be happy enough that we are showing some sort of progress. The only unfortunate thing is that we're probably likely to need to win both those games now to get that 2nd seeding for the WC qualifiers.

~Rebel~

Esse85 wrote: »

I'm not a Kenny fan nor a hater.

Who is Kenny supposed to play instead of Hourihane and Hendricks?

Both scored in the Premier league this season at least.

What would the big difference you speak of be?

Hourihane is 29, Hendricks 28, still plenty of time on their side, neither is a speed merchant so not like they'll slow down further.

What realistic manager would you of preferred?

I do def think Molumby will be our starting no. 8 very soon.

KungPao

It's all very sad tbh. As a man pushing 40, all I've ever known is Ireland being a really strong team who qualify for tournaments here and there, can give anyone from Belize to Brazil a real game.

The Trap era was really the last days of us being like that, MON got one last hurrah out of us, but there was little left in the tank then. Now we're done.

Republic of Ireland is just an also ran now. We are an Israel, a Georgia, not even a Scotland. I just hope we don't drop any further.

~Rebel~

KungPao wrote: »

It's all very sad tbh. As a man pushing 40, all I've ever known is Ireland being a really strong team who qualify for tournaments here and there, can give anyone from Belize to Brazil a real game.

The Trap era was really the last days of us being like that, MON got one last hurrah out of us, but there was little left in the tank then. Now we're done.

Republic of Ireland is just an also ran now. We are an Israel, a Georgia, not even a Scotland. I just hope we don't drop any further.

We’ve the best crop coming through that we’ve had in a very very long time, but really they’re still about 3 or 4 years off maturing together, all around 18 to 20 now. We just have to be a little patient, as we were producing absolutely nothing for ages there.

crushproof

KungPao wrote: »

It's all very sad tbh. As a man pushing 40, all I've ever known is Ireland being a really strong team who qualify for tournaments here and there, can give anyone from Belize to Brazil a real game.

The Trap era was really the last days of us being like that, MON got one last hurrah out of us, but there was little left in the tank then. Now we're done.

Republic of Ireland is just an also ran now. We are an Israel, a Georgia, not even a Scotland. I just hope we don't drop any further.

The FAI have screwed over any hope of a positive future, we are way behind most other countries in terms of youth development and are still in the dark ages when it comes to underage football and the domestic league.

Despite god knows how much money thrown at consultants, plans and ideas the FAI have refused to push football in this country into the 21st century.

Mr.Nice Guy

Esse85 wrote: »

I'm not a Kenny fan nor a hater.

Who is Kenny supposed to play instead of Hourihane and Hendricks?

Both scored in the Premier league this season at least.

What would the big difference you speak of be?

Hourihane is 29, Hendricks 28, still plenty of time on their side, neither is a speed merchant so not like they'll slow down further.

What realistic manager would you of preferred?

Hourihane and Hendrick aren't going to fit the style of play that he professes to want to play. They are solid picks for the previous two coaches but it's unrealistic to expect them to be the foundation of a revamped Irish style of play, which is what they've become. Younger alternatives he could have made regulars could have been the likes of Cullen, Smallbone, Molumby, Byrne, Coventry. Players that might be able to adapt but who have only been given fleeting chances. This is what Wales basically do. You're not going to change your cultural style by expecting the old guard to change. If Kenny had said to the Irish fans, 'I'm going to put my faith in the youth. Please be patient with these young lads as we try this new style' then the public would be far more receptive. But he's gone and picked the old guard under the notion he can turn them into different players. Is it naivety? Arrogance? Hard to say, but we can see it's not working out.

I would have preferred we see McCarthy's tenure out and see what happens. I never liked that Delaney succession plan and it's proved far too disruptive. I would love us to play a more expansive, eye-catching style but only if we have the personnel there to make it feasible. Under Kenny, we're not finding out as he's not picking players that might have it in their locker. By the time he does eventually get around to picking these guys regularly, we'll presumably be asked to give them time! So basically we're in a holding pattern where we have to put up with terrible results, awkward performances, and pleas for the management to be given more time. Rinse and repeat.