England v Republic of Ireland - Match Thread - 8pm 12/11/20 - RTE

KungPao

~Rebel~ wrote: »

We’ve the best crop coming through that we’ve had in a very very long time, but really they’re still about 3 or 4 years off maturing together, all around 18 to 20 now. We just have to be a little patient, as we were producing absolutely nothing for ages there.

I hope you are right, and better times are ahead. I just feel like the good old days are over, very disheartening to see us without players who score goals.

I think it's especially stark when you see the options England have. In the 90s you could argue we were better, not even a contest at the moment.

But I'll keep hoping.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Prediction: Brady does nothing and McClean gets booked

Ah well, I was half-right

scouserstation

crushproof wrote: »

The FAI have screwed over any hope of a positive future, we are way behind most other countries in terms of youth development and are still in the dark ages when it comes to underage football and the domestic league.

Despite god knows how much money thrown at consultants, plans and ideas the FAI have refused to push football in this country into the 21st century.

That's it until we fix the fundamental problems within Irish football we are doomed to fail at this level but you will still have the 'fans' that come on here looking for answers as to why we have a poor international side while spending big money supporting British soccer

gormdubhgorm

That game England game was like watching The Dubs 3rd team mish mash v Louth at half throttle in an O'Byrne cup game.
Winning pulling up.
Gulf in class massive. Ireland are a wee country.
But it is even more sickening to realise the NI team look better than the ROI team!

Francie Barrett

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Hendrick and Hourihane have started 5/6 games under this management. Both of them are nearing 30. Does anyone, even the most ardent Kenny backer, believe those two are the future of the national side? Do you really think another year or two of these lads in midfield is going to herald some dramatic transformation in how they play football? Look at it dispassionately.

It doesn't matter whether they are the future or not. They are starting because they are usually the best available options at the time.

Kenny is the biggest advocate for young players that Ireland could ever have. If he thought there were u21 players that were ready to step up, they would be starting.

In an ideal world, we would have James McCarthy as the lynch pin of the midfield, he is clearly our best option. Hendrick is probably next in line, I do feel that Kenny has probably mis-used him so far by playing him as the advanced midfield role, but that is probably out of a case of us lacking a better option there. I think if we are going to play three central midfielders, we should have those two in the deep-lying roles where we know they are most effective. That of course leaves the more advanced role free, and quite frankly, I have no idea who to put there. If the likes of Hoolahan was even a few years younger, you'd have to think he'd thrive in that sort of role.

~Rebel~

Francie Barrett wrote: »

It doesn't matter whether they are the future or not. They are starting because they are usually the best available options at the time.

Kenny is the biggest advocate for young players that Ireland could ever have. If he thought there were u21 players that were ready to step up, they would be starting.

In an ideal world, we would have James McCarthy as the lynch pin of the midfield, he is clearly our best option. Hendrick is probably next in line, I do feel that Kenny has probably mis-used him so far by playing him as the advanced midfield role, but that is probably out of a case of us lacking a better option there. I think if we are going to play three central midfielders, we should have those two in the deep-lying roles where we know they are most effective. That of course leaves the more advanced role free, and quite frankly, I have no idea who to put there. If the likes of Hoolahan was even a few years younger, you'd have to think he'd thrive in that sort of role.

I'd really like to see Byrne get a shot there, just to see if he can do it. Big step up for him of course, but I feel like we just need to bite the bullet and try it since he's pretty much the only player of that type we have anyway. If it doesn't work, grand, then we'll know.

Beechwoodspark

I’m a long time supporter and probably always will be of the Irish team

Things have gone downhill over the last 5-10 years.

My personal view is that the FAI have completely mismanaged Irish football and particularly developing new talent.

This manager in place at the moment has got off to a poor start yes.

But I would give him some breathing space. I’m happy to see how he goes over a 3 year cycle for starters.

weldoninhio

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I’m a long time supporter and probably always will be of the Irish team

Things have gone downhill over the last 5-10 years.

My personal view is that the FAI have completely mismanaged Irish football and particularly developing new talent.

This manager in place at the moment has got off to a poor start yes.

But I would give him some breathing space. I’m happy to see how he goes over a 3 year cycle for starters.

Yes, lets waste three years on an experiment we can see has failed after 6 games.

Seems like the Kenny debate falls into two camps

1. His results are terrible, he doesn't have top level experience.

2. It's early days, we are playing decent football but we don't have the players.

For point number 1 - what would people prefer? Getting a Sam Allardyce or Sean Dyche in?

For point number 2, maybe this vindicates Trappatoni/O'Neill all along? We simply don't have the players to afford to play open attacking.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

For point number 1 - what would people prefer? Getting a Sam Allardyce or Sean Dyche in?

And pay them with magic beans...

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

And pay them with magic beans...

Get me Denis O'Brien on the phone.......

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Get me Denis O'Brien on the phone.......

Fellows getting all nostalgic for the days when Delaney would phone O'Brien to pay a manager millions for saying "kick the ball as high as you can". It's as if there is a collective amnesia about how bad it got post Euro 2012 and again from 2017 on...

DM_7

Deleted User wrote: »

Seems like the Kenny debate falls into two camps

1. His results are terrible, he doesn't have top level experience.

2. It's early days, we are playing decent football but we don't have the players.

For point number 1 - what would people prefer? Getting a Sam Allardyce or Sean Dyche in?

For point number 2, maybe this vindicates Trappatoni/O'Neill all along? We simply don't have the players to afford to play open attacking.

MOD:
The suggestion of two groups of posters is worrying. I think it is an observation based on some posts previously made and I thank you for flagging the type of groupings that can be made.

This is a good time to remind all posters they should discuss a post on its individual merits and they should not dismiss the views of others based on some arbitrary groupings they have come up with.

Individual posters can label and limit themselves if they wish but other posters should not categorise others as it damages discussion.

Posters who appear to be placing limits on other posters to dismiss views that they do not share will be asked to stop posting in threads related to ROI.

Fitz*

Alan Browne has tested positive for COVID.

He played 90 mins last night in this game.

Mantis Toboggan

Fitz* wrote: »

Alan Browne has tested positive for COVID.

He played 90 mins last night in this game.

If he was waiting for results back and still played the game he should be arrested.

Brock Turnpike

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ah well, I was half-right

Which half was right?

Neeson

Fitz* wrote: »

Alan Browne has tested positive for COVID.

He played 90 mins last night in this game.

They say he has no close contacts but spent the night spitting and sweating over multiple men. Everyone he was around was a close contact.

I'm just gutted that our 35 year unbeaten record against England ended last night. I was really proud about that even if we didn't play them that often.

statesaver

Neeson wrote: »

They say he has no close contacts but spent the night spitting and sweating over multiple men. Everyone he was around was a close contact.

Did he room on his own, sit on his own on the bus, in the dressing room, I wonder ?

Brock Turnpike

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

Which half was right?

Brady not impacting the game.

Neeson

Neeson wrote: »

They say he has no close contacts but spent the night spitting and sweating over multiple men...

You'd think he'd be too tired for that stuff after playing a match...

Francie Barrett

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

If he was waiting for results back and still played the game he should be arrested.

Why? All players are regularly tested. If Browne was able to play a full 90 minutes, he's clearly asymptomatic and likely had no idea he was a carrier.

The White Feather

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm just gutted that our 35 year unbeaten record against England ended last night. I was really proud about that even if we didn't play them that often.

It is still a record in competitive football !!

JP Liz V1

Fitz* wrote: »

Alan Browne has tested positive for COVID.

He played 90 mins last night in this game.

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

If he was waiting for results back and still played the game he should be arrested.

:eek:

Brock Turnpike

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Brady not impacting the game.

Apart from him creating our only chance of the match?

Charlie19

Agent Coulson wrote: »

God save the Queen was played that night look at the Youtube above,

This was what I must of been thinking of...
Six minutes into the vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJB8l_somDY

Great video, the man is a legend.

TheCitizen

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

Shocked that I've had no issues whatsoever tonight with the RTE player. It's definitely the first time I can say that.

Must’ve been cos not as many as usual were watching

gormdubhgorm

Deleted User wrote: »

Seems like the Kenny debate falls into two camps

2. It's early days, we are playing decent football but we don't have the players.

For point number 2, maybe this vindicates Trappatoni/O'Neill all along? We simply don't have the players to afford to play open attacking.

I think most are copping on to this, those who are in dreamland thinking Ireland can play attractive football while getting decent results, are waking up.

Any time a goalkeeper is mentioned as the best player because he saves loads of shots and it would be much worse without him = trouble.

I used to laugh at how NI talked up Roy Carroll - look at all the practice he gets with NI I used to say.
Now it is the same with Randolph a fella who cannot get his game in a West Ham team.

Ireland's backline looks OK on paper. EPL league players/former EPL players.
But the you examine it closer who do they play for?

Teams who soak up pressure against better sides. Not tippy tappy teams.

O'Shea - West Brom
Long - Burnley
Egan - Sheffield United
-
-
Duffy more suited to direct style not good enough on the ball playing in Scotland which is really mid Championship level at best.
-
-

Doherty and Coleman two exceptions - both quality players - but vying for the same spot. Only problem is midfield is not good enough to control a game and let them bomb forward. So basically they are rarely a threat going forwards as a result

--
--
Non EPL Cyrus Cristie - loads of pace energetic - but has questionable decision making at times and is error prone.

--
--

Midfield full of non descript sloggers. Not a creative midfielder among them unless you count Byrne who Kenny clearly does not rate.
If Kenny was not a former LOI manager there would be uproar from those fans as Byrne is not being given a chance.

So we are left with this well intentioned hardworking but creatively limited bunch of players. Not a notion of regular slick forward passing/passes - between them.

Arter (he tries hard -finds creativity difficult)

Browne (he tries hard -finds creativity difficult)

Hendrick (offers energy I suppose but not the creative type euro 2016 suggested)

Hourihane (again more of a box to box type - might take the odd set piece but you would hardly call him creative from play

Molumby (box to box type really - but talked up because he is young- people need hope I suppose)

McCarthy (supposed to be the best of the rest - but always hides or is injured)

Brady (flatters to deceive injury prone - when on pitch tries hard - used to be the creative hope before Byrne - could deliver a great free kick every 100 attempts - hit and miss)

Mclean - (on the downward slope loads of effort and an always obligatory yellow card - terrible technique masked by endeavour)

Calum O'Dowda and Daryl Horgan - (non descript would not notice if they were not in the squad - they turn up and try at least)

--
--

Forwards - firstly lacking service from a creatively vapid midfield does not help them.

So each chance is at a premium.

Even so this list are hardly the types to make something out of nothing.

Adam Idah probably the most promising young lad bar Connolly but needs a poacher fella to play off. Which Ireland do not have.

Aaron Connolly, seems like mostly energy and pace - an EPL slogger

I have the feeling likes of James Collins and Sean Mcguire are only there because there are few other options

--
--

I know there were the covid problems and all of that.
But look at the pool of players available.
Can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

LuckyLloyd

The right approach with Ireland is to keep it tight, transition quickly and focus on a direct approach with lots of width. Invest the majority of preparation into set pieces. Tell the players that it is a fight and lean on their inbred competitiveness and togetherness. Make it ugly and foul tactically where it makes sense to do so. Keep yourself in the game for as long as possible and trust the players to make something happen when they absolutely need it. Finally, make it so your opponents - who will always be technically superior - can lose the game. As Keane wrote in his first autobiography, International sides are often brittle and lack the unity of purpose of club sides. That is to our advantage if we hang around in games long enough to make it a factor.

Kenny is likely to fail with his current approach. Ultimately there are reasons why managers of superior experience, ability and standing approached the task the way they did. It is only a matter of time unfortunately unless there is a drastic shift in approach or a magical change in outcomes derived from the current plan.

The standard complaint is that we implemented a similar approach all of the time, and should have tried to play more football in times where *we* had a perceived technical superiority. There are two main problems with this analysis:

i) while our players may ply their trade at higher levels than their counterparts on 4th and 5th seeded opponents, it doesn't necessarily mean we are technically superior. Our professional players often succeed because of a rounded set of characteristics over and above their pure technical ability
ii) As much as people hated the style of play under Trapp, O'Neill and McCarthy against lower opposition. Our record in competitive games against lower seeded opposition from 2008 - 2020 is exemplary: W26 D10 L3 (I've included ALL lower seeds, including playoffs where we were seeded higher, etc). We've never lost to a 5th or 6th seed, and only to a 4th seed once (Scotland, away).

This is the basis of being competitive in a qualifying campaign. Getting results where we should and making it a fight when we're the underdogs.

It has been deeply unimpressive thus far.

ThunbergsAreGo

Totally agree on the above and been saying it for a while.

As stereotypical as it sounds fast direct physical play is our best hope and what we thrive on. Doesn't have to be dour and defensive either - all three could be used to describe Liverpool.

Kenny is doomed to fail as his approach isn't right for our players. I would love him to succeed but just feel this period is ultimately going to be a period where we realise what our identity is - and its not slow possession based football.

~Rebel~

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Totally agree on the above and been saying it for a while.

As stereotypical as it sounds fast direct physical play is our best hope and what we thrive on. Doesn't have to be dour and defensive either - all three could be used to describe Liverpool.

Kenny is doomed to fail as his approach isn't right for our players. I would love him to succeed but just feel this period is ultimately going to be a period where we realise what our identity is - and its not slow possession based football.

The problem with Kenny’s approach is that no-one is sticking away the couple of very decent chances we get per game.

I just don’t really see who starts sticking away goals created by more direct play.

We’ve been missing sitters like... changing all the stuff leading up to creating good chances feels like addressing the wrong problem.

ThunbergsAreGo

~Rebel~ wrote: »

The problem with Kenny’s approach is that no-one is sticking away the couple of very decent chances we get per game.

I just don’t really see who starts sticking away goals created by more direct play.

We’ve been missing sitters like... changing all the stuff leading up to creating good chances feels like addressing the wrong problem.

I'm not saying we change it under Kenny, it's his way of playing but our largest goal threat every game is pretty much Shane Duffy from a corner.

I am not anti Kenny at all.