Wales v Republic of Ireland - UEFA Nations League - Match Thread - 5pm 15/11/20 - Sky

Nerdlingr

Hammar wrote: »

Plus when Coleman is back, Doherty can play left wing back, it makes a lot of sense. Felt sorry for Idah tonight also, completely outnumbered.

Said it before on the Ireland thread, but we should have trialled it in the earlier games at the start of Kennys tenure.
Coleman could even go right side of a three...or as you say Doherty go left, Coleman right.
Idah isolated on his own all night. We were playing 451 rather than a 433

eigrod

John Delaney has dragged Irish domestic and International football right in to the gutter. Going to take 10 years to recover any bit.

ballsymchugh

some ball watching by knight there

Coillte_Bhoy

Fromvert wrote: »

Passing the ball side to side and backwards is not 'playing good football'. It's pointless trying to play from the back when none of your defenders can actually pass a ball forward through the opposition to a midfielder.

There is no pattern of play on show that even hints at this way working out, defensively as poor as I can remember and the worst run likely ever without scoring.

I'm not sure I can think of one positive under Kenny so far (well there has been a few minutes of positive play but few and far between). Now he has had an awful deal with injuries and Covid infections but we've played some teams we should be beating, well at least creating chances against!

It's not working and he needs to change his approach now, to get results so he can keep his job.

Like tonight you mean?

~Rebel~

Pudsy33 wrote: »

100% this, I totally understand the frustration with the ****e results but the standard of football, both in attack and defence, has been a massive stretch better than the MoN and Mccarthy eras. We haven't had our strongest team, or anything close to it really, available for any game. Let's give him one qualifying campaign before getting the knives out shall we?

I largely agree, and I don’t want him sacked. I want us to keep playing football... but if the plan isn’t working, you need to change the plan. Whether that’s changing the playmaker in the mid 3 and the striker in the front 3, or changing to 3-5-2, something needs adjustment.

Oat23

TheCitizen wrote: »

Yeah yeah we know all that. He still needs to get results against comparable opposition though

**** results. Get out of this 'it's a results business' mindset. We're in a transition period, missing players and nations league promotion/relegation is the most unimportant thing in football.

All we should be looking to see is an identity being built, which we are seeing. But right now we have a coach trying to build a playstyle and identity by putting square pegs in round holes in some positions and in others he has players who simply are not cut out for this level.

If you want to know why, pick up a copy of Champagne Football.

The players needed will come in good time as long as everyone is patient.

Edit: I should say 'the players needed will HOPEFULLY come'. Obviously nothing is guaranteed, but if we do things right we give ourselves the best shot of success. The way the NT has operated for the past decade especially has not been the right way and has led us to where we are now.

POKERKING

Byrne at fault for that yellow card. He has a lot to learn.

ziggyman17

briany wrote: »

I'd give him at least one full campaign. For years, now, people have been asking for Ireland to play a more modern game instead of the defensive, rugged and cautious approach taken under Messrs Trapattoni and O'Neill. Well, Ireland are now attempting to play that. We should wait and see if it bears any fruit or else prove that there was method to the previous two managers' madness.

I'd have to dig back through a lot of old threads to prove this, but I do seem to remember a few posters during the Trap/Mon days saying that they'd prefer to see Ireland actually try to play football, with the result being a secondary concern. Well, after a campaign of trying to play football, and being summarily dumped out of the competition, this attitude will probably be rarer than a hen's tooth. It is the result which matters most, and getting the best possible ones is the only validation of the style you choose to employ in getting it.

In fairness, the argument to actually try and play a bit of football was more valid during the Trap days when Ireland still had at least a couple of attacking players of note. These days, it's truly a team of journeymen, and a primacy on defensive organisation is probably never more needed.

give him as long as he needs, he has inherited a **** group of players, nobody is doing anything else with this bunch of players. finally we get a coach that wants to play football and we have a bunch of players that are ****ing rubbish. He is new in the job and needs at least 2 qualifying tournements to get things back on track...

kksaints

Disappointing result again and I don't think the performance was that good either unlike some of the other matches. Duffy is a shadow of his best and if Stevens was available he should be dropped and move O'Shea into center back. I'd also be critical of Randolph's distribution of the ball this evening, far too slow and he hit way too many passes to the full backs that were at that really awkward night head height but not to feet.

nullzero

eigrod wrote: »

John Delaney has dragged Irish domestic and International football right in to the gutter. Going to take 10 years to recover any bit.

I don't blame Stephen Kenny for what he's inherited or the results he's getting.

This level of performance is the fault of the people like John Delaney lining their own pockets and doing nothing to progress the sport in what has become a hugely competitive market for field sports in this country.

Fromvert

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Like tonight you mean?

Four shots on target, isn't great going. It was poor again attacking wise again.

wadacrack

POKERKING wrote: »

Byrne at fault for that yellow card. He has a lot to learn.

He was doing well before that. Misplaced pass at the end of the game

Witcher

ziggyman17 wrote: »

give him as long as he needs, he has inherited a **** group of players, nobody is doing anything else with this bunch of players. finally we get a coach that wants to play football and we have a bunch of players that are ****ing rubbish. He is new in the job and needs at least 2 qualifying tournements to get things back on track...

2 qualifying campaigns lol

Yeah sure we'll just give him until an Irish Ronaldo, Messi and Iniesta come through...will ya get real:pac:

He's out of his depth and if we had a better team he'd still be out of his depth just with a better team.

ctrl-alt-delete

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to go back to the era where in injury time we made a decent throw-in and whipped a ball into the box where we had committed players.

Give me a poor throw-in and a suicide cross-field pass any day of the week.

ben.schlomo

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to go back to the era where in injury time we made a decent throw-in and whipped a ball into the box where we had committed players.

Give me a poor throw-in and a suicide cross-field pass any day of the week.

So you're saying these players aren't committed?

dubrov

We're transitioning alright, into the bottom tier of European football.

More worryingly, our best players are getting older with no one coming through to replace them.

Add in they seem to be busting a gut for a competition that no other country seems to care about.

We are looking at a long dark period for Irish football for the next ten years

kksaints

wadacrack wrote: »

He was doing well before that. Misplaced pass at the end of the game

Thought Knight should have reacted quicker to the pass, was extremely flat footed. He was poor when he came on Knight and I'd question why Horgan was taken off so early.

Fromvert

Oat23 wrote: »

**** results. Get out of this 'it's a results business' mindset. We're in a transition period, missing players and nations league promotion/relegation is the most unimportant thing in football.

All we should be looking to see is an identity being built, which we are seeing. But right now we have a coach trying to build a playstyle and identity by putting square pegs in round holes in some positions and in others he has players who simply are not cut out for this level.

If you want to know why, pick up a copy of Champagne Football.

The players needed will come in good time as long as everyone is patient.

Edit: I should say 'the players needed will HOPEFULLY come'. Obviously nothing is guaranteed, but if we do things right we give ourselves the best shot of success. The way the NT has operated for the past decade especially has not been the right way and has led us to where we are now.

I'm all for trying to play good football but only when the situation allows it and right now the defenders are not good enough to play the ball out, Duffy especially. If he wants to play this way, Duffy can't be playing, Hendrick can't be playing.

He's picking some of those square pegs on his own which is a worry about his actual decision making on who can play the way he wants to play.

edgecutter

Witcher wrote: »

2 qualifying campaigns lol

Yeah sure we'll just give him until an Irish Ronaldo, Messi and a come through...will ya get real:pac:

Who would you bring in?

You would swear that we have some divine right to be beating Wales and England because Ireland use to be good. Take a look at that Welsh squad and tell me which of our players gets in their team? This is the worse Irish side in living memory and no manager in the world is going to get them beating the top nor the sides around us. Kenny needs time.

We're just not good enough, in any area. From the FAI all the way down.

Coillte_Bhoy

Fromvert wrote: »

Four shots on target, isn't great going. It was poor again attacking wise again.

Think we had 7 or 8, but anyway much better in that regard tonight i thought, i know, clutching at straws and all that

ctrl-alt-delete

ben.schlomo wrote: »

So you're saying these players aren't committed?

No certainly not, I meant in the sense of in terms of onfield position.

Azatadine

Kenny needs time.[/quote]

Time for what? No matter how much time he gets, he's not up to the job, never was and never will be. We are a poor outfit now but I dont think the players themselves really respect him either.

tastyt

You have to play a game that your players are comfortable with. The best managers of all time , Ferguson, Ancellotti etc all cut their cloth to the players available to them and didn’t let their ego get in the way of setting up the team to play to their strengths.

Kenny, some pundits , the Irish media and a lot of blinkered fans have been going on about this Kenny football for the past year and have now backed him into a corner

He probably knows that the players aren’t good enough, it’s fairly obvious, but he has to continue with this Irish pep charade because of the hype

tastyt

Alejandra Wooden Peppermint wrote: »

Genuine Q. Players not good enough , fine. U21s? Lots over lads in there whove potential no doubt but were hyped up beyond ability. Kenny had them playing great stuff. Lads with UCD/Tranmere/Bohs etc

Maybe the 21”s success was a bit overhyped too. He did have them playing nice stuff though to be fair. It’s probably a lot easier play that kind of football at underage level though when your not playing against seasoned international players and when there is way less pressure than there is on the senior side

This is worse than the Staunton era tbh. Awful stuff.

briany

ziggyman17 wrote: »

give him as long as he needs, he has inherited a **** group of players, nobody is doing anything else with this bunch of players. finally we get a coach that wants to play football and we have a bunch of players that are ****ing rubbish. He is new in the job and needs at least 2 qualifying tournements to get things back on track...

You need both, though, which is the problem. You can intend to play all the nice football you want, but if you have no attacking threat, kicking the ball around in the middle of the park is, at best, boring, and at worst quite dangerous as you invite the other side to intercept a wayward pass and nick a goal of their own.

People are saying the Irish grassroots system is brutal, and I take that point, but it begs the question was the Irish system doing something more productive back in the 70s and 80s to produce players of the calibre of Paul McGrath, Steve Staunton, Roy Keane, Robbie Keane and Damien Duff, to mention a few, which the system has not been doing since the turn of the century?

Azatadine wrote: »

Time for what? No matter how much time he gets, he's not up to the job, never was and never will be. We are a poor outfit now but I dont think the players themselves really respect him either.

I'd heard this point mentioned during the time of Kerr, as well, i.e. LoI man who the dressing room tended not to respect. It was anecdotal, though.

applehunter

I thought the sides were evenly matched.

Idah is only a kid so can’t be too hard on him.

showpony1

Oat23 wrote: »

All we should be looking to see is an identity being built, which we are seeing.

what is this identity - Robert Brady floating set pieces into the box for Shane Duffy on his own to attack?

Ferris_Bueller

Terrible again really. While we played okay up until the Welsh goal went in, we didn't create a single good chance and probably wouldn't have scored if we played on for another 3 hours. Sloppy defending for their goal, lucky not to concede a few more and Randolph pulled off a good save or two.

Hendrick was awful, he made so many horrendous errors in the second half, terrible to say but thank god he is suspended for the next game, just hope it isn't Hourihane who replaces him.

Hard to be in any way positive about the Irish team now. So many players who just don't look up to scratch yet are repeatedly given chances. It's been a disasterous start for Kenny so far, the atmosphere in the dressing room after that must be woeful.

Jimbob1977

Ironically our chances of reaching the next Euros might improve if we were in League C with the likes of Montenegro and Luxembourg.

votecounts

What use are good performances which I don't there has been, having been been outplayed by most opposition if we end up losing every game. Any other country would be calling for his head. The managers job priority is to get results, we'll never play like brazil and he has been one Big FAILURE. Sack him now as I wouldn't trust him with a pub team

briany

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Ironically our chances of reaching the next Euros might improve if we were in League C with the likes of Montenegro and Luxembourg.

The old 'drop your handicap so you can play in the Duffers' prize' trick.

SEPT 23 1989

votecounts wrote: »

What use are good performances which I don't there has been, having been been outplayed by most opposition if we end up losing every game. Any other country would be calling for his head. The managers job priority is to get results, we'll never play like brazil and he has been one Big FAILURE. Sack him now as I wouldn't trust him with a pub team

We could never play like teams like Brazil but we could beat them

mada999

Francie Barrett wrote: »

How is 5ft 8 David Brooks beating our two central defenders like that.

Duffy took out the other center half

showpony1

I'm 100% convinced there is no way Gio Trappatoni would be losing all of these games even with this group of players, at minimum we'd have drawn that game - for those just saying Stephen needs time etc. *awaits people pointing out we lost to Spain, Italy, Croatia under Gio*

Arthur Daley

applehunter wrote: »

I thought the sides were evenly matched.

Idah is only a kid so can’t be too hard on him.

Yeah imagine the mood if Wales played them off the park. Wales heading for promotion but not a huge amount between the sides over two games.

Simple mistakes cost Ireland at this level and they are not agressive enough going forward. E.g. Brady looking for passes 18 yards out when he should have a crack and make the keeper work.

votecounts

A proper manager would have us scoring more than 1 goal in 7 games and winning at least once. Joke of an appointment like staunton. He'll be gone soon

LuckyLloyd

briany wrote: »

I'd give him at least one full campaign. For years, now, people have been asking for Ireland to play a more modern game instead of the defensive, rugged and cautious approach taken under Messrs Trapattoni and O'Neill. Well, Ireland are now attempting to play that. We should wait and see if it bears any fruit or else prove that there was method to the previous two managers' madness.

I'd have to dig back through a lot of old threads to prove this, but I do seem to remember a few posters during the Trap/Mon days saying that they'd prefer to see Ireland actually try to play football, with the result being a secondary concern. Well, after a campaign of trying to play football, and being summarily dumped out of the competition, this attitude will probably be rarer than a hen's tooth. It is the result which matters most, and getting the best possible ones is the only validation of the style you choose to employ in getting it.

In fairness, the argument to actually try and play a bit of football was more valid during the Trap days when Ireland still had at least a couple of attacking players of note. These days, it's truly a team of journeymen, and a primacy on defensive organisation is probably never more needed.

In the interest of balance, some of us were happy with the approach during that period on the basis that it was the right approach given our playing pool.

In any case what the most people involved (players, media, supporters) want is to win. Kenny can try whatever philosophy he wants so long as he gets results.

Nerdlingr

6 wrote: »

This is worse than the Staunton era tbh. Awful stuff.

Staunton won his first game three nil v Sweden and look out that turned out long term.
He had the likes of Duff, Keane, Doyle, Morrison, McGeady, Reid, Stephen Ireland to call on as attacking threats in his first few squads....
We have nothing near that now. We're miles away from another Clinton Morrison! That's the reality of the situation we find ourselves in.

pjohnson

When we finally score it'll be monumental. Like when Tahiti scored in the Confederations Cup all those years ago. We can look forward to that I guess.

TheCitizen

Oat23 wrote: »

**** results. Get out of this 'it's a results business' mindset. We're in a transition period, missing players and nations league promotion/relegation is the most unimportant thing in football.

All we should be looking to see is an identity being built, which we are seeing. But right now we have a coach trying to build a playstyle and identity by putting square pegs in round holes in some positions and in others he has players who simply are not cut out for this level.

If you want to know why, pick up a copy of Champagne Football.

The players needed will come in good time as long as everyone is patient.

Edit: I should say 'the players needed will HOPEFULLY come'. Obviously nothing is guaranteed, but if we do things right we give ourselves the best shot of success. The way the NT has operated for the past decade especially has not been the right way and has led us to where we are now.

I stopped reading at fúck results

lawred2

I think Kenny's Dundalk side would have beaten the shower of sh*te the national side has to field

lawred2

pjohnson wrote: »

When we finally score it'll be monumental. Like when Tahiti scored in the Confederations Cup all those years ago. We can look forward to that I guess.

It'll be from a corner. It'll be underwhelming.

It won't be from a flowing attacking move that started from the back.

LuckyLloyd

Oat23 wrote: »

Always amazes me how many people in these threads didn't see this period of Irish football coming. The writing has been on the wall and people have been saying it here for years.

The NT has been going downhill for over a decade. Our best players are all retiring and they aren't being replaced by younger players just as talented because of years of neglect by the FAI.

We have two choices. We can go with a young, talented coach who understands modern football, like Kenny, develop an attractive style of play and mould young players coming through to play that style.

Or we can line up another dinosaur like Mick or MON to play stone age football and rob some draws/wins playing putrid football. Meanwhile the actual talent level of the players coming through will continue to drop as nothing is done to improve it/them because everything is grand when [Insert dinosaur coach here] manages to sneak us to the euros/world cup once every 10 years.

Sadly there are so many Irish fans happy with option B where are the 'also rans' as long as they get a p*ss up in a foreign land every now and again.

We can do far more at international level if people just remain patient and we invest in youth/grassroots football. It's going to take a while but it will be worth it.

The Senior Team is not a developmental role, sorry. By all means we should have a huge investment in the grass roots, a national academy and comprehensive development strategy. But the senior team plays for the result. The objective is to make the best of the available playing pool and be competitive as possible.

If Kenny cannot win football matches (or score a goal) the FAI will bring in someone who can. And this is decoupled from whatever we are doing or not doing with youth development. Conflating the two is bankrupt.

pjohnson

lawred2 wrote: »

It'll be from a corner. It'll be underwhelming.

It won't be from a flowing attacking move that started from the back.

Most likely to probably come from an own goal than a corner.


But still any goal is practically a win for Kenny's Ireland.


An actual win is years away apparently.

CantGetNoSleep

Sack him now. One up front in the last minute when 1-0 down to the mighty Wales is nothing to do with John Delaney or not having players like Duff and Robbie Keane anymore. It is due to a stubborn out of his depth manager who got ran out of the biggest job he ever took in Dunfermline. Chalk it down as a mistake and make experience managing full time players a requirement for the next job

lawred2

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

Sack him now. One up front in the last minute when 1-0 down to the mighty Wales is nothing to do with John Delaney or not having players like Duff and Robbie Keane anymore. It is due to a stubborn out of his depth manager who got ran out of the biggest job he ever took in Dunfermline. Chalk it down as a mistake and make experience managing full time players a requirement for the next job

He probably is out of his depth.

But I don't think there's been a worse pool of players in my living memory. And that goes back to the 80s

wadacrack

lawred2 wrote: »

He probably is out of his depth.

But I don't think there's been a worse pool of players in my living memory. And that goes back to the 80s

We are playing better under Kenny than McCarthy and O'Neill, results will improve. He's had extremely bad luck with injuries/absentees. The lack of talent is a concern. u21's/ younger players not progressing at club level this season

LuckyLloyd

wadacrack wrote: »

We are playing better under Kenny than McCarthy and O'Neill, results will improve. He's had extremely bad luck with injuries/absentees. The lack of talent is a concern. u21's/ younger players not progressing at club level this season

A bit of aimless possession around the back and to and from the midfield is hardly “playing better”, is it?