Affordable EV (5k or less) with ranges of 300km or more?

jordan191

Thierry12 wrote: »

Insane but makes sense

Been gale force and lashing down for a month now

What does it do in summer at 120km/h?

20kWh/100km/h?

26% heavier consumption between winter and summer seems alot

My ICE is about 12-14%

You must be hammering that m3LR to be getting 26 kwh/100 km, my average is 16.8 for the last year and 23,000kms, I did a 215 km trip today and used 60%

jordan191

jordan191 wrote: »

You must be hammering that m3LR to be getting 26 kwh/100 km, my average is 16.8 for the last year and 23,000kms, I did a 215 km trip today and used 60%

In my model 3 performance, normally get 370-430 kms no problem

Lumen

jordan191 wrote: »

You must be hammering that m3LR to be getting 26 kwh/100 km, my average is 16.8 for the last year and 23,000kms, I did a 215 km trip today and used 60%

That was just this morning, headwind and heavy rain, all motorway but under 125kph, 21.5C cabin.

YMMV.

jordan191

Lumen wrote: »

That was just this morning, headwind and heavy rain, all motorway but under 125kph, 21.5C cabin.

YMMV.

That trip was this morning also, cabin 19 C cruise at 110kph with 50/50 motor way and back roads, with m3p- running on 18" wheels it's an effecient beast when you keep it under 120

Zamboni

tom1ie wrote: »

When do we think we will reach a point when the 2nd hand ev market becomes affordable (5k or less) with ranges of 300km or more?

I set these parameters as this would be when I buy an ev and I would love an ev as I do 25k kms a year at least.
I’m driving a diesel at the minute which is probably worth 3k (Vauxhall insignia Sri 2011) but is working perfectly and has no debt on it, which is something I wouldn’t want to change by swapping over to an ev.

I feel your pain. I went through similar thoughts but my requirements weren't too bad.
I’ve always said mass adoption won’t take place until used EVs are available widely for €5k.
If I was in your position, I would keep the paid for Insignia and I would just start saving now and eventually your savings will meet an EV that meets your requirements in due course.
I’m personally allergic to finance and PCP and I would never buy new but that’s just my own philosophy. Even more so for a work vehicle in the current climate. No company is forever and I’d hate to be stuck with a PCP depreciated vehicle and a P45.
It sound like you want an EV as much as I did so I reckon you’ll make it happen at the right time.
Good luck!

Lumen

jordan191 wrote: »

That trip was this morning also, cabin 19 C cruise at 110kph with 50/50 motor way and back roads, with m3p- running on 18" wheels it's an effecient beast when you keep it under 120

Yeah, that's not going to happen. I didn't buy a 350bhp car to drive around at Leafspeed.

tom1ie

Zamboni wrote: »

I feel your pain. I went through similar thoughts but my requirements weren't too bad.
I’ve always said mass adoption won’t take place until used EVs are available widely for €5k.
If I was in your position, I would keep the paid for Insignia and I would just start saving now and eventually your savings will meet an EV that meets your requirements in due course.
I’m personally allergic to finance and PCP and I would never buy new but that’s just my own philosophy. Even more so for a work vehicle in the current climate. No company is forever and I’d hate to be stuck with a PCP depreciated vehicle and a P45.
It sound like you want an EV as much as I did so I reckon you’ll make it happen at the right time.
Good luck!

Thanks Zamboni.
If i had a car on finance at the moment it would make sense to pull the trigger on the EV (lets be realistic id have to get a model 3 or S!!) but it just doesn't make sense if i can drive my current car around with zero monthly payments to finance debt.

Gumbo

tom1ie wrote: »

Thanks Zamboni.
If i had a car on finance at the moment it would make sense to pull the trigger on the EV (lets be realistic id have to get a model 3 or S!!) but it just doesn't make sense if i can drive my current car around with zero monthly payments to finance debt.

It never makes financial sense to buy a new car.
But, when you have to buy a car, you consider all options.

EV, Hybrid, diesel or petrol. Whatever suits your needs.
Fossil fuels will be here for many more years in some shape as some industries cannot make that change yet.

MJohnston

Gumbo wrote: »

It never makes financial sense to buy a new car.

Fixed that for you! If you're buying a car, the financial gap between buying new and buying used is very debatable. I think that's especially true when we're in the middle of a technological epochal shift.

liamog

tom1ie wrote: »

Thanks Zamboni.
If i had a car on finance at the moment it would make sense to pull the trigger on the EV (lets be realistic id have to get a model 3 or S!!) but it just doesn't make sense if i can drive my current car around with zero monthly payments to finance debt.

You are not being realistic, you could achieve your distance goals with a Kona/Niro/ID.3 Long Range, or within the next 12 months an ID.4/Enyaq.

However, you are correct, it very rarely makes sense financially to ever a replace a vehicle with a new one, the numbers really only stack up when comparing like for like. Which in this case would be a new ICE vehicle. Looking at Kona's available for sale here, your looking at 15k premium for a '17 EV versus an '18 ICE. The problem is EVs just hold their value too well so it's going to be a long time before the sums add up in such a way that you can spend the extra money and save overall by running the car into the ground.

Kramer

Gumbo wrote: »

It never makes financial sense to buy a new car.

It does if your name is unkel..............he can finance, buy, maintain & run a brand new EV for less than a 2003 Micra.........even a Tesla probably :P.

But yeah, for normal folk, a new EV is a want, not a need & I'd certainly not recommend anyone run out & finance €40k for a new EV, to save money.

The planet maybe, & a few penguins, sure.

liamog

Kramer wrote: »

But yeah, for normal folk, a new EV car is a want, not a need & I'd certainly not recommend anyone run out & finance €40k for a new EV car, to save money.

Fixed that for you

UID0

Short answer: Given the requirements (300km motorway range all year), the answer, unfortunately, is possibly never (in the short to medium term).

Long answer: The low price for older ICE vehicles is based on their scrap value (which might be less than €100). As a car gets older, it gets closer to that value. For an EV, the battery will have a residual value when it is no longer of use in the car. This value is going to be significantly higher than the scrap value of an ICE car.
As a car ages, the battery capacity will drop, so to get 300km motorway range in a 10 year old car (you will have to look at the range at the time you are going to dispose of the car, not when you get it), will require a car that can do in the region of 400km winter motorway range new. If the car uses 20kWh/100km, then it requires an 80kWh usable (maybe 85-90kWh total capacity) battery. Current pack prices seem to be in the €120-€150/kWh range from what I can find online. This gives a pack price in the 10000-13500 range. If in 10 years, the price of a new pack has halved, this will have an effect on the scrap value of the old pack (which is unlikely to drop to less than half of a new pack, given it can be combined with other packs to give refurbished packs, or can be used for home storage), the end of life value of the car is likely to be around €3000.
A battery of this cost is not going to go into a cheap car and with more manufacturers having a range of battery options in their vehicles, this will not be the highest selling one. Given this, it is likely to have a lower % depreciation than average for that vehicle (out of all battery options). The new price of a car with this range is likely to be in the region of €50000 for the next few years at least. If you take that after 5 years it has lost approx 3/4 of the difference between its new and scrap values, then at 5 years old it will have a value of approx. €14000-15000.
The most common battery sizes are going to be in the 50-60kWh region for a considerable amount of time, as there aren't enough people who need the larger batteries, and for the car manufacturers who are faced with emissions fines, there is an incentive to keep the batteries smaller (and therefore cheaper) and sell a larger number of cars. People who need larger batteries are either going to decide to stay in a diesel, or will pay for a premium car as they will be spending a large amount of time in the car.
A PHEV may reach the €5000 mark sooner than a BEV, and would allow you to be fully electric for days when you are not going as far, or when you can charge somewhere that you stop, but there are fewer of them on the road, and you are still looking at quite a few years before they reach that price.



Looking at your own situation, you will have to make a decision on:
1 if your employment situation needs to change - is doing 300km in a day a sustainable situation for you or do you need to change how your work is scheduled to allow shorter distances.
2 If any time spent stopping is acceptable. As it currently stands, you have to stop to fill up the car with diesel. If you go electric, you will be able to leave with a full charge every morning, and don't need to have anything left when you get home (assuming home charging). You would be trading the filling up all the time to filling up only when doing a long trip. As you presumably have to stop somewhere for food during the day, selecting an eating location based on the ability to charge the car (even if only for 20-30 minutes) would mean a lower range car could work.
3 If your price point is reasonable considering you are looking at moving from a car that cost €25-30k new to car that cost €45-50 new. Even without considering the different scrap values, there would be a significant price difference at 5 years old.

Ultimately, you have to look at the complete cost of the car over the time you intend to own it.
Purchase price - disposal price
Fuel cost
Servicing/tyres
tax, NCT, insurance.
By looking at these and the potential costs associated with running an older car e.g. if it breaks down, how do I get to work or, even worse, how do I travel 150km to home on a cold winter night, you have to make a decision on when/if you can afford to/justify the expense of purchasing a car that costs more upfront.

This doesn't take into account any unforeseen changes (e.g. new battery technologies), but the likelihood is that any new technologies (even if they are much cheaper to manufacture) will be priced to slightly undercut the Li-ion equivalent for the duration of their patent, and won't have a material effect on the market.

mr chips

NIMAN wrote: »

Fair enough, I know where you were coming from.

I too have had folk say to me that they ain't buying an EV until they can travel the length of the country in it.

I ask them how often they do trips of 360 miles? The answer is usually never, but they need the option to.

For me, these folk are never going to buy an ev, not unless the internal combustion engine ceases to be allowed on passenger vehicles. To put such demands on their MUST HAVE checklist means they are just trying to find a way NOT to buy one.

There's definitely a substantial proportion of drivers for whom a range of less than 300km/200 miles is an insurmountable barrier to changing over from ICE. A lot of these may not necessarily have a mammoth commute, but take longer trips at weekends on a regular basis - parents taking kids to matches, people visiting relatives, whatever. When you're packing kids into the car or trying to get to your parents' place by a particular time, nobody wants to have to build in an extra 60-90 minutes of "dead" time for recharging on top of an already packed schedule. However, I'd say this would be greatly offset if charging times became comparable to refuelling an ICE, or at least something approaching that. Whenever that finally happens, motorway range for an EV wouldn't have to be way above 250km for acceptance to reach a tipping point.

An early Ioniq seems to be the best example of an EV that is efficient on the motorway, charges relatively quickly and might be available for around/under ten grand in a couple of years' time. But a 250km outward trip would still require 2 stops, if not 3 in order to avoid arriving in turtle mode. In that car, this easily means adding around 1hr15 to both the outward and return legs. Even assuming an overnight stay and not returning the same day, that pushes the time on the road over the weekend from 6 hours to 7h30. An EV with the same range but much faster charging, cutting recharging stops to a total of 15-20 minutes in each direction, would be an entirely different proposition. But when e.g the cheapest ID3 is sold with only 50kW charging speed, depreciation of mid-range EVs to a price point that's accessible to the majority of second-hand buyers is still some way off, barring some additional form of intervention. I guess in the meantime, for many people an EV will continue to only be seen as a viable option for a 2 car household.

Kramer

mr chips wrote: »

An early Ioniq seems to be the best example of an EV that is efficient on the motorway, charges relatively quickly..................But a 250km outward trip would still require 2 stops, if not 3...............In that car, this easily means adding around 1hr15 to both the outward and return legs.

A 15 minute charge would see the Ioniq easily do that 250km trip, provided the charger was well placed - 150km into the journey & 75kW/150kW capable.

So your theoretical 500km return trip would take 5 hours in an ICE or 5.5 hours in the Ioniq.

Taking into account the Ioniq is a 2016 economy car, was half the price of a Model 3 SR+, had/has a tiny, air cooled battery, that's not bad going.

JimmyVik

Parents looking to go for an electric car now. They will only go for 300km range.



Whats the best price you could get a 2nd hand electric Kona in Ireland for at the moment?

OR what if i push the boat out and go for a 2nd hand tesla?

I should add that it will be myself and my brother buying them the car and it will probably be their last car, so want to make it a nice one.

JimmyVik

..

Markcheese

Well the cheapest one on done deal is 29 thousand ..

Gumbo

JimmyVik wrote: »

Parents looking to go for an electric car now. They will only go for 300km range.



Whats the best price you could get a 2nd hand electric Kona in Ireland for at the moment?

OR what if i push the boat out and go for a 2nd hand tesla?

I should add that it will be myself and my brother buying them the car and it will probably be their last car, so want to make it a nice one.

Check DoneDeal for here.
Check auto trader uk for bringing one in.

AndyBoBandy

Gumbo wrote: »

Check DoneDeal for here.
Check auto trader uk for bringing one in.

and check Tesla UK in the hope of finding a similar CPO to what unkel got a few months ago....

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/inventory/used/ms?arrangeby=relevance&zip=D02&range=0

£39k sterling will put your parents into a beast of a car...

This looks tasty..

mr chips

Kramer wrote: »

A 15 minute charge would see the Ioniq easily do that 250km trip, provided the charger was well placed - 150km into the journey & 75kW/150kW capable.

So your theoretical 500km return trip would take 5 hours in an ICE or 5.5 hours in the Ioniq.

Taking into account the Ioniq is a 2016 economy car, was half the price of a Model 3 SR+, had/has a tiny, air cooled battery, that's not bad going.

Cheers - 15 minute charges would be fantastic, if as you say the ultra-fast chargers are on your route. I was going on the assumption of at least a 30 minute stoppage each time.

In fact, I just put a regular 435km trip I do into A Better Route Planner, picking a 28kWh Ioniq, assuming a 100% battery at the start and arriving with 10%. For a trip that normally needs around 4.5 hours of actual driving time (motorway/dual carriageway for all but 8km), it's suggesting a total journey of 5 hours and 15 minutes. An extra couple of minutes here or there would provide a bigger buffer. I know that assumes the availability of a charger as soon as I arrive, but if this were the case I could definitely live with it.

Gumbo

mr chips wrote: »

Cheers - 15 minute charges would be fantastic, if as you say the ultra-fast chargers are on your route. I was going on the assumption of at least a 30 minute stoppage each time.

In fact, I just put a regular 435km trip I do into A Better Route Planner, picking a 28kWh Ioniq, assuming a 100% battery at the start and arriving with 10%. For a trip that normally needs around 4.5 hours of actual driving time (motorway/dual carriageway for all but 8km), it's suggesting a total journey of 5 hours and 15 minutes. An extra couple of minutes here or there would provide a bigger buffer. I know that assumes the availability of a charger as soon as I arrive, but if this were the case I could definitely live with it.

Since you have to,pay for charging, the availability of chargers has shot up.
Also, you have other options with easygo, ionity.

corglass

Dohvolle wrote: »

Looking at the PHEV end, the depreciation on an outlander tells its own story. New OTR just south of 50 grand, 2017 models now retailing for half that.
Not as many features as the newer model, remote operation of charging/heaters etc, but still gets you on the ladder.
Same goes for 2nd Gen Leaf. 171 30kwh available for €14k. Retailed new for €29k.
50% depreciation in 3 years, by 2023, The same Note should be worth 7grand, and the Outlander 13 grand.
Unless a green leaning government decides to incentivise the move away from ICE with some sort of scrappage scheme.

All cars generally follow the 50% depreciation every 3 years until scrap value

JimmyVik

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

and check Tesla UK in the hope of finding a similar CPO to what unkel got a few months ago....

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/inventory/used/ms?arrangeby=relevance&zip=D02&range=0

£39k sterling will put your parents into a beast of a car...

This looks tasty..

Thanks guys.
Now to convince my brother to go for that

garo

Follow the EV bargains thread here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057685376

ted1

JimmyVik wrote: »

Parents looking to go for an electric car now. They will only go for 300km range.



Whats the best price you could get a 2nd hand electric Kona in Ireland for at the moment?

OR what if i push the boat out and go for a 2nd hand tesla?

I should add that it will be myself and my brother buying them the car and it will probably be their last car, so want to make it a nice one.

How often do they go 300km? The old man got a Niro PHEV. Seldom does he drive on petrol as his journeys are generally less than 50km. He does occasionally do larger trips in Ireland or France and didn’t want to suffer range anxiety.

JimmyVik

ted1 wrote: »

How often do they go 300km? The old man got a Niro PHEV. Seldom does he drive on petrol as his journeys are generally less than 50km. He does occasionally do larger trips in Ireland or France and didn’t want to suffer range anxiety.

My Dad would do 300km trips at least once a week. He loves going down to my sisters house. Like his little bolthole in the country.


That phev could be an idea alright. Are they much cheaper than the all electric?

ted1

JimmyVik wrote: »

That phev could be an idea alright. Are they much cheaper than the all electric?

The base price for the PHEV is 6k cheaper then base price for the EV.

MJohnston

JimmyVik wrote: »

My Dad would do 300km trips at least once a week. He loves going down to my sisters house. Like his little bolthole in the country.


That phev could be an idea alright. Are they much cheaper than the all electric?

Is the 300km the round trip, rather than the one-way distance?

JimmyVik

MJohnston wrote: »

Is the 300km the round trip, rather than the one-way distance?

It would be one way. He stays a night or two and then comes back. The odd time my mum goes with him, but shes not up for traveling too much these days. Checked it on maps. Its actually 312km door to door.
Just looking for some comfort for him in his old age.

MJohnston

JimmyVik wrote: »

It would be one way. He stays a night or two and then comes back. The odd time my mum goes with him, but shes not up for traveling too much these days. Checked it on maps. Its actually 312km door to door.
Just looking for some comfort for him in his old age.

That's a hefty drive!

I don't want to assume, but I'd imagine your dad would normally stop at least once on a journey that long? Even with an EV with an ~300km range, you'd still want to charge up somewhere along the route.

Like for long drives in a petrol car, I think most people would try to avoid the low fuel warning coming on if they can help it.

Luckily, it's really not that bad at all to get a charge somewhere on a journey. I'll repeat what I said earlier — don't be put off by the complaining about the charging network on this forum, that exists largely because people want the charging network to be good enough to support the future, rather than it being a problem for the current situation.