Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Deleted User wrote: »

womens skulls getting smashed- "lol, cricket joke"

i dunno, for a side of the debate that are very quick to scream about everyone being a terf or anti-trans theres a high proportion of yis that sure seem......like really, genuinely hostile to cis women

only observing myself, so no data, but its almost always those who identify as mtf trans who really do seem either alarmingly unfeeling or strikingly callous about the concerns or fears from cis women about the rights being demanded with little debate

i mean hey its only perceptions but i dunno.

really bad look, imo

They often very quickly betray a contempt for women. On Twitter, their bios will often say ‘feminist’. Yeah right. Some of the more conservative heads in these threads show far more respect for the female experience than any of those ‘male feminist’ goobers.

km991148

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Your dismissive attitude to sexual assault of women speaks volumes...

"Discussion using words and sentences..."
Indeed.


Misogyny much?

False equivalence much? Strawman much?

Dont try and weedle your way around made up examples in an attempt to put words into my mouth or dismiss my own opinions.

Incidentally - you came in talking about a GYN - you didn't mention if this was an examination as a result of a sexual assault in your entirely made up example.

EDIT: fopr clarity - here is the original post where the straw was set:

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

If you'd consented to a being examined by a woman obstetrician/gynacologist who subsequently turned out to be trans-woman, is that sexual assault I wonder.

The handling of the situation would be checking with the patient that it was ok to proceed BEFORE the examination (or sexual assault in your terminology) took place - but its hard to know how exactly this would be handled because the doctor, the patient nor the hospital actually exist.. do you see the trouble we get to when you start going off piste?

mohawk

MynamesColm wrote: »

When that happens you may have something to complain about. But you don't know, and I don't know what rules will be established by organisations in the future.


Ive just had a look at Fallon Fox's wiki, and seems like the requirements for her to be a licensed fighter were pretty strict...si yes, I'm okay with it.

Well I think the safety of women and girls should come first. Testosterone is not the only reason men have an advantage in most sports.
Fallon Fox broke a women’s skull. But hey as long as your okay with it.

46 Long

LLMMLL wrote: »

A trans woman doctor is a woman.

What is a woman?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

MynamesColm wrote: »

I guess Fallon Fox has won all her fights so, what with the massive advantag....oh...no...she hasn't?



I don't claim to be an expert, but there are rules in place for trans mma fighters.


Its not a reason to deny people rights or recognition.

It denies women places in sport. Is sport important or isn’t it?

Gervais08

46 Long wrote: »

What is a woman?

An adult human female.

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

No human has the right to enforce a life or lifestyle on another.

so vague as to be meaningless.

try telling yr boss that next time you dont like an order

or the bank manager when they refuse you a mortgage

what human right- an actual agreed, defined one- is being denied anyone if another person (and especially in their private capacity) does not believe they have changed gender from birth?

conversely- what right has *anyone* to tell anyone else that they *must* believe or profess to believe that, if they do not agree?


thats the crux of it i think- the claim of a right to tell anyone else what to believe or how to express that belief. and for all that i see trans rights crews claiming that they are the victims of this, its that side that are actually lobbying left, right and centre (with some venom) for this right over others.

be trans, be fluid, be nb. ppl probably dont care too much.

dont demand that anyone else has to deal with your self-identity issues in your chosen way, and your chosen way only. thats not a right anyone gets!

IAMAMORON

46 Long wrote: »

What is a woman?

Ah here, enough with the technical questions already, it is getting late in the day.

Manach

Given the willingness of Progressives to legalise "hate-speech" laws for those that diverge from their doctrines on this and other issues, not saying a thing.

Gruffalux

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

They often very quickly betray a contempt for women. On Twitter, their bios will often say ‘feminist’. Yeah right. Some of the more conservative heads in these threads show far more respect for the female experience than any of those ‘male feminist’ goobers.

Goobers! Oh can we somehow please make this a much more frequent word?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

IAMAMORON wrote: »

In your quote above you are stating that non transgendered persons have a fundamental right above transgenders, you have sighted instances were transgenders are looking to impede on other human rights.

Give me the quote where I said that. Third time asking you. Come on. If you think I have said this, show me where. What’s the problem?

jam_mac_jam

mohawk wrote: »

Well I think the safety of women and girls should come first. Testosterone is not the only reason men have an advantage in most sports.
Fallon Fox broke a women’s skull. But hey as long as your okay with it.

I wonder how many broken skulls before it becomes a problem?

You give an example, its not enough, you need 50.

Everything seems to be hardly ever happens, not enough examples, hypothetical, doesn't happen in Ireland.

km991148

Manach wrote: »

Given the willingness of Progressives to legalise "hate-speech" laws for those that diverge from their doctrines on this and other issues, not saying a thing.

you pretty much did (not say a thing)..

Gruffalux

Manach wrote: »

Given the willingness of Progressives to legalise "hate-speech" laws for those that diverge from their doctrines on this and other issues, not saying a thing.

Don't be afraìd of the list, Manach! Be on the list. Embrace the list. Ultimately all the cool people will be on the list, I guarantee it.

IAMAMORON

Deleted User wrote: »

so vague as to be meaningless.

try telling yr boss that next time you dont like an order

or the bank manager when they refuse you a mortgage

what human right- an actual agreed, defined one- is being denied anyone if another person (and especially in their private capacity) does not believe they have changed gender from birth?

conversely- what right has *anyone* to tell anyone else that they *must* believe or profess to believe that, if they do not agree?


thats the crux of it i think- the claim of a right to tell anyone else what to believe or how to express that belief. and for all that i see trans rights crews claiming that they are the victims of this, its that side that are actually lobbying left, right and centre (with some venom) for this right over others.

be trans, be fluid, be nb. ppl probably dont care too much.

dont demand that anyone else has to deal with your self-identity issues in your chosen way, and your chosen way only. thats not a right anyone gets!

As I said earlier, it astonishes me how it is only non transgenders that suffer with the concept so much.

Transsexuals are only asking for respect and to be allowed be who they want to be. I don't understand people holding any adversity towards it. At the end of the day it is no one elses' business anyway.

km991148

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I wonder how many broken skulls before it becomes a problem?

You give an example, its not enough, you need 50.

Everything seems to be hardly ever happens, not enough examples, hypothetical, doesn't happen in Ireland.

The person who smashed a skull should be dealt with. The made up creepy 50 year old - the same.

Checks and balances should be put in place to stop bad things happening (which is harder in the later case, because it was entirely made up).

Unfortunately (and I say this with sincerity, because its often with absolute tragedy) things go wrong before they get it right. Happens in all areas of life.

Gatling

Gruffalux wrote: »

Don't be afraìd of the list, Manach! Be on the list. Embrace the list. Ultimately all the cool people will be on the list, I guarantee it.

Imagine what twitter and Mumsnet dwellers life's actually look like

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

As I said earlier, it astonishes me how it is only non transgenders that suffer with the concept so much.

Transsexuals are only asking for respect and to be allowed be who they want to be. I don't understand people holding any adversity towards it. At the end of the day it is no one elses' business anyway.

so vague as to be meaningless

and my post set out why, but you ignored that obviously

Smacruairi

LLMMLL wrote: »

It's actually TERFs who centred the debate around cis women.

Can you please stop using that term. I have asked you politely, feeling that you use it in a way to denigrate and insult. Please refrain from insulting people who have repeatedly asked you in the previous thread to avoid doing so. I do not identify myself by that term, I find it to be provocative and that you use it as a slur. Please refrain.

km991148

Gatling wrote: »

Imagine what twitter and Mumsnet dwellers life's actually look like

Right but now you are just being silly by trying to extrapolate the views of one group of people on one single issue on to a whole other set of people.

Twitter is full of nuts from all walks of life and all sides of the political spectrum. mumsnet I have no clue - but it appears like an attempt to offend or belittle?..

Wibbs

MynamesColm wrote: »

Fallon Fox (an mma fighter): Licensed fighter with strict rules for licensing trans fighters. "to be licensed, transgender female fighters must undergo complete "surgical anatomical changes ..., including external genitalia and gonadectomy and subsequently a minimum of two years of hormone replacement therapy, administered by a board certified specialist."

Then that "board certified specialist" is either a moron, or pressured into passing Fox because of external forces looking to appear progressive. Because it's a bloody nonsense.

Now we'll forget the deluded daftness and politic and it is a politic that says a Transexual women is an actual women for a moment, but Fox was over 30 years old when they transitioned. They had been a large framed man who had around 15 years of testosterone coursing through his body and training during that time, building a bigger frame, bigger joints, bigger hands, wider shoulders, different limb proportions, narrower hips, bigger and thicker skull, higher bone densities, more fast twitch muscle fibres, thicker and stronger skin and sinews and other connective tissue, bigger organs, never mind larger blood and lung volumes. They then medically transitioned and took female hormones for two years. That can never reset that previous development to pre puberty, never mind to an actual woman who has a completely different hormone soup going on, never mind genetically based differences out of the box built up over the same time period. Oestrogen will actually retain most of the gains in bone densities and frames, shoulders, hands, joints don't shrink.

Whatever about Trans women competing in other sports against women and the inequality in that, but contact sports are a complete bloody insanity and it seems an increasingly shared insanity as far as some in some sports bodies are concerned.

Gatling

km991148 wrote: »

Twitter is full of nuts from all walks of life and all sides of the political spectrum. mumsnet I have no clue - but it appears like an attempt to offend or belittle?..

Jesus wept .

Offend and belittle who ,

Actually don't bother

Wibbs

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Transsexuals are only asking for respect and to be allowed be who they want to be. I don't understand people holding any adversity towards it. At the end of the day it is no one elses' business anyway.

Agreed, right up to the point where it becomes someone else's business when it comes to their lives and especially their personal safety.

km991148

Gatling wrote: »

Jesus wept .

Offend and belittle who ,

Actually don't bother

good question - what was your point - I obviously missed it - and if so I apologise?

IAMAMORON

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I wonder how many broken skulls before it becomes a problem?

You give an example, its not enough, you need 50.

Everything seems to be hardly ever happens, not enough examples, hypothetical, doesn't happen in Ireland.

As I said earlier, clinging to the example of maybe 50 transgendered persons participating in one sport or another is not a big enough reason to dispute transgender rights. It is something which each particular sporting body need to address.

It certainly is not a sufficient quotient for raising as an issue on gender equality or in the human rights of transsexuals.

People may not have the tenacity to comprehend what transsexualism is all about, but certainly screaming whataboutery about a few examples of professional sportspersons only clarifies their lack of temerity in the discussion.

Baggly

LLMMLL wrote: »

So if you can't tell then how can you ensure that you always have a cis woman doctor or strip searched by a cis woman?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

They often very quickly betray a contempt for women. On Twitter, their bios will often say ‘feminist’. Yeah right. Some of the more conservative heads in these threads show far more respect for the female experience than any of those ‘male feminist’ goobers.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Give me the quote where I said that. Third time asking you. Come on. If you think I have said this, show me where. What’s the problem?

Gatling wrote: »

Imagine what twitter and Mumsnet dwellers life's actually look like

Gatling wrote: »

Jesus wept .

Offend and belittle who ,

Actually don't bother

Mod

All of you can take a week off from this thread to evaluate your standard of posting here today. Any issues, my pm inbox is open.

IAMAMORON

Wibbs wrote: »

Agreed, right up to the point where it becomes someone else's business when it comes to their lives and especially their personal safety.

Personal safety has nothing to do with someone's gender identity?

How do you mean?

Are you bringing up surgery?

MynamesColm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I wonder how many broken skulls before it becomes a problem?

You give an example, its not enough, you need 50.

Everything seems to be hardly ever happens, not enough examples, hypothetical, doesn't happen in Ireland.

I'm sorry, but injuries in mma are not a new thing.



Has Fox won all her matches? Have other female fighters suffered horrific injuries fighting non trans fighters?



An amateur mma fighter lost her life this year... but that's not notable because she wasn't fighting a trans fighter?




Forgive me for not buying a pair of pearls and clutching them at the idea that an mma fighter was injured.

km991148

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Personal safety has nothing to do with someone's gender identity?

How do you mean?

Are you bringing up surgery?

Presumably they mean the isolated case where a skull got broken?

Or am I missing something?

Wibbs

Manach wrote: »

Given the willingness of Progressives to legalise "hate-speech" laws for those that diverge from their doctrines on this and other issues, not saying a thing.

Good point. The new doctrine is getting close to the full set: a credo that is unscientific, relying more on feelings and faith, a hardline to the catechism priesthood, growing laity with pious crawthumpers who will cry "Heresy!!" at even the easiest question, or statement of provable fact and now a potential inquisition to run to with the laws to make it a legal blasphemy. Though with the actual inquisitions if you recanted and asked for grace you almost always got it and off you went, now one tweet can have someone potentially excommunicated for good.