Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

One eyed Jack

Smacruairi wrote: »

You tried to make a point that grammatical gender had no relevance to real gender. I showed you that nah, it pretty much boils down to the same biological split. However it does nothing to upset the idea that most people will never see transwomen the same as biological women though.

No, there is as far as I’m concerned no such thing as ‘real gender’ as you put it. The idea of gender as a separate and distinct biological concept was floated by sexologist John Money in the ‘50’s to ascribe behaviours with traits along neat lines which were ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’. It’s where a lot of the nonsense about ‘feminine boys’ and ‘masculine girls’ comes from, having no basis in biology, entirely founded upon stereotypes perpetuated in sociology and psychology.

It clearly doesn’t boil down to the same biological split when nouns themselves are either feminine or masculine. It’s obviously a linguistic construct, apparently common in other languages too, but isn’t present in the English language.

The point wasn’t about people seeing ‘transwomen’ as women, I don’t use the word ‘transwomen’ myself, nor do I ever need it to distinguish between women and men, or boys and girls, so I don’t use the ‘biological’ adjective either, as it’s understood that if I’m speaking about humans in the context of biology, it’s understood by most people that I’m speaking in the context of human biology.

Christ mate you really tore the arse out of that one, it was only meant as a light-hearted post!

AllForIt

What I recall from Spanish class which is a gendered language unlike English, is that the reason for it is provide further subdivisions which provides more clarity. That's all. Inanimate objects don't have an innate gender - obviously.

So the gender some inanimate object is assigned in Spanish and French is based on some characteristic however silly that can be matched to a male or female physical characteristic. So iron is masculine because it is strong but an iron as in an electric iron is feminine.

So is a feather masculine or feminine in Spanish? La pluma (f). Not hard is it. When learning a language and you don't know whether it's el or la (Spanish) or Le La (French) you can figure it out often by matching some characteristic of the object to a biological human trait. So everything leads back to biology in the end whether you like it or not.

One eyed Jack

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Is your first language Irish?

Well, not really, I was raised through Irish spoken at home and it’s always felt more natural to me whereas other languages, like English, don’t, but obviously I use them more often than I would Irish.

AllForIt wrote: »

So is a feather masculine or feminine in Spanish? La pluma (f). Not hard is it. When learning a language and you don't know whether it's el or la (Spanish) or Le La (French) you can figure it out often by matching some characteristic of the object to a biological human trait. So everything leads back to biology in the end whether you like it or not.

Kinda is though when that’s not the way I learned languages. A chair for example is just a chair in any language I know as far as I was concerned, and I wouldn’t have thought of it as having characteristics associated with biological traits. It’s not as though strength as far as I’m concerned anyway is an actual biological trait unique to either sex, but when you explain it that way I can see where it comes from now - the example of physical strength is a stereotype associated with men, and characteristics which demonstrate or denote weakness are more commonly or stereotypically associated with women.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Smacruairi wrote: »

The Irish for gender is "inscne".
Firinscneach means masculine, baininscneach means feminine.
Fear, buachaill, uncail, basically anything to do with a man is masculine. So are all the jobs.
Bean, mathair, deirfiur are all feminine, anything to do with a woman generally,with cailin being the exception because it ends in "in"

Your tangent is a load of nonsense as per usual.

As if we didn’t already know that Pink News was execrable, Posie Parker doesn’t identify as a feminist anymore. Hasn’t for a long time. And if they had done even basic research, they would know that. But this is Pink News, the outlet who published something like 30... articles on JK Rowling in the space of a couple of months.

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

As if we didn’t already know that Pink News was execrable, Posie Parker doesn’t identify as a feminist anymore. Hasn’t for a long time. And if they had done even basic research, they would know that. But this is Pink News, the outlet who published something like 30... articles on JK Rowling in the space of a couple of months.

Posie Parker’s violent suggestion is getting a lot of support on Twitter from those who follow the TERF ideology, including Keira Bell.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LLMMLL wrote: »

Posie Parker’s violent suggestion is getting a lot of support on Twitter from those who follow the TERF ideology, including Keira Bell.

Oh cool, so people who acknowledge the difference between sex and gender and want to uphold laws, protections and social mores based on that difference AREN’T supporting Parker? Because they’re not TERFs and don’t follow the “TERF ideology”, whatever that is.

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Oh cool, so people who acknowledge the difference between sex and gender and want to uphold laws, protections and social mores based on that difference AREN’T supporting Parker? Because they’re not TERFs and don’t follow the “TERF ideology”, whatever that is.

They do follow the TERF ideology and they are supporting Posie Parker on twitter. They love her on mumsnet too.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

They do follow the TERF ideology and they are supporting Posie Parker on twitter. They love her on mumsnet too.

Those referred to with the word TERF typically reject the term or consider it a slur; some identify themselves as gender critical.[4] Critics of the word TERF say that it has been used in an overly-broad fashion, in insults, and alongside violent rhetoric.[5][6][7][8] In academic discourse,

A UK court recently declared it as a slur

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

A UK court recently declared it as a slur

Untrue. A lawyer acting on behalf of someone who follows the TERF ideology said it was a slur. Lawyers can say anything they like. The court did not mention the word at all.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

The court did not mention the word at all.

The judge said it


Judge John Woollard acknowledged 'Terf' as a derogatory word aimed at, primarily, gender critical women. (Basildon Magistrate's Court on 01/03/2019

*mod snip*

One eyed Jack

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

As if we didn’t already know that Pink News was execrable, Posie Parker doesn’t identify as a feminist anymore. Hasn’t for a long time. And if they had done even basic research, they would know that. But this is Pink News, the outlet who published something like 30... articles on JK Rowling in the space of a couple of months.

I’ve just realised Posie Parker doesn’t identify as Posie Parker any more, but feminist? From her show streamed two days ago, skip to the last five minutes -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ajn-0qEiWs

Maybe it’s a deepfake Nah, Posie is grand, she’s like an English Germaine Greer, far more entertaining at least than Graham Linehan and his merry band. No love lost for Pinknews either btw, shows up in my news alerts, but it’s hardly a shocker that they and every other tabloid publication in the UK published reams of articles on JK last year?

Point of it anyway was to provide context for Posie’s interview with the Irish woman who is the leader of an Irish feminist group and her opinions on the gender recognition act in Ireland, and the idea of the Irish language being gendered, which was also news to me.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gatling wrote: »

The judge said it


Judge John Woollard acknowledged 'Terf' as a derogatory word aimed at, primarily, gender critical women. (Basildon Magistrate's Court on 01/03/2019

*mod snip*

I saw a British academic say on Twitter a few weeks back something like “TERF isn’t a slur. It’s an acronym”. As if it being an acronym precluded it from being a slur. I thought “academics aren’t what they use to be”.

Smacruairi

LLMMLL wrote: »

Untrue. A lawyer acting on behalf of someone who follows the TERF ideology said it was a slur. Lawyers can say anything they like. The court did not mention the word at all.

I've asked you before to please stop using that term as you clearly use it in a derogatory fashion to demonstrate disrespect. Please do not use it. No one else here uses mumsnet, so it might pass there, but please don't use it here.

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

The judge said it


Judge John Woollard acknowledged 'Terf' as a derogatory word aimed at, primarily, gender critical women. (Basildon Magistrate's Court on 01/03/2019

*mod snip*

He did not. What’s your source?

LLMMLL

Smacruairi wrote: »

I've asked you before to please stop using that term as you clearly use it in a derogatory fashion to demonstrate disrespect. Please do not use it. No one else here uses mumsnet, so it might pass there, but please don't use it here.

Read the first post on this thread. Boards says it can be used.

Smacruairi

LLMMLL wrote: »

Read the first post on this thread. Boards says it can be used.

You clearly use it to disrespect and disparage. The same way the word shinnerbot isn't a slur but we don't use it around these parts as it leads to poor debate.

LLMMLL

Smacruairi wrote: »

You clearly use it to disrespect and disparage. The same way the word shinnerbot isn't a slur but we don't use it around these parts as it leads to poor debate.

Report the post if you have an issue. I will continue to use it in the respectful way I always have. Thank you.

Gatling

Smacruairi wrote: »

You clearly use it to disrespect and disparage. The same way the word shinnerbot isn't a slur but we don't use it around these parts as it leads to poor debate.

Exactly, only comes out when they have lost an argument or if they know they have zero comeback

Smacruairi

LLMMLL wrote: »

Report the post if you have an issue. I will continue to use it in the respectful way I always have. Thank you.

Grand, well I'll continue to use whatever pronouns I want in a respectful way. God bless you.

LLMMLL

Smacruairi wrote: »

Grand, well I'll continue to use whatever pronouns I want in a respectful way. God bless you.

You are free to do so. And it may or may not be against boards rules. I’m glad we’re in agreement.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Smacruairi wrote: »

I've asked you before to please stop using that term as you clearly use it in a derogatory fashion to demonstrate disrespect. Please do not use it. No one else here uses mumsnet, so it might pass there, but please don't use it here.

Unfortunately, it’s allowed. There’s a mod post on this thread saying so. But as an another poster said earlier in the thread, let them have their shitty slur.

Gatling

I heard Twackos ( twitterwhackos) recently

Ted_YNWA

Mod

Off topic posts deleted.

If you want to discuss issues regarding other threads, bring it to that thread or to PM. Dont derail this one.

nolivesmatter

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Unfortunately, it’s allowed. There’s a mod post on this thread saying so. But as an another poster said earlier in the thread, let them have their shitty slur.

Throwing out insults like that is a clear sign someone is just trying to antagonize people and isn't really interested in a good faith argument. The only positive is that they're telling us what they're up to.

CtevenSrowder

nolivesmatter wrote: »

Throwing out insults like that is a clear sign someone is just trying to antagonize people and isn't really interested in a good faith argument. The only positive is that they're telling us what they're up to.

'When you have to resort to insults you've already lost the argument'

-Jessica Yaniv

Sorcha Dhuisigh _She_Her_

How is it an insult? Its a descriptive and usually very accurate term.

jam_mac_jam

Sorcha Dhuisigh _She_Her_ wrote: »

How is it an insult? Its a descriptive and usually very accurate term.

Maybe do a search on the term and have a read back. It has been explained multiple times why it is considered as insult.

It's also usually inaccurate as most people it is used against are not radical feminists.

nolivesmatter

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Maybe do a search on the term and have a read back. It has been explained multiple times why it is considered as insult.

It's also usually inaccurate as most people it is used against are not radical feminists.

Thanks for that, I was almost going to try to explain it but thought better of feeding the troll.

Sorcha Dhuisigh _She_Her_

Sorcha Dhuisigh _She_Her_ wrote: »

How is it an insult? Its a descriptive and usually very accurate term.

Its not in the least bit descriptive as I for instance, though dubious about self identification, am also not a radical feminist.

Gatling

Sorcha Dhuisigh _She_Her_ wrote: »

How is it an insult? Its a descriptive and usually very accurate term.

Yeah no .

I wonder who this could be