Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

km991148

46 Long wrote: »

It becomes our business when challenging mental illness becomes 'hate speech' and we're expected to redefine language and pretend that biological reality doesn't exist.

And now I really don't follow - Unless you mean all people with gender issues have a 'mental illness' - and if so - who are we to 'challenge' it - and then who exactly is calling that 'challenge' hate speech (I mean I Imagine it could be hate speech, it could be a question I guess?)

km991148

km991148 wrote: »

I simply fail to see how trading hypothetical situations about made up pervy transgendered 50 year old swimmers or hospitals with transgendered gynaecologists (that are at the same time completely ignorant of transgender issues) any use? What are you trying to prove? I could invoke any imaginary situation to prove any point I wanted if that were the case?

*Checks OP thread rules

Baggly wrote: »

Gender identity is a very current and heated debate in Ireland at the moment.

There have been a number of threads in the Current Affairs forum that have dealt with specific talking points on the topic in the media, but they have largely become less 'current' and so this thread is more on the 'Honest Opinion' side of the forums purpose.

What is your opinion on gender identity?

A few reminder notes from the mod team

[*]This thread is for discussing the above OP. Please do so.

We're talking about gender identity and implications. Pretty wide ranging scope, as it seems the thread direction would attest

km991148 wrote: »

False equivalence much? Strawman much?

Dont try and weedle your way around made up examples in an attempt to put words into my mouth or dismiss my own opinions.

Incidentally - you came in talking about a GYN - you didn't mention if this was an examination as a result of a sexual assault in your entirely made up example.

EDIT: fopr clarity - here is the original post where the straw was set:

The handling of the situation would be checking with the patient that it was ok to proceed BEFORE the examination (or sexual assault in your terminology) took place - but its hard to know how exactly this would be handled because the doctor, the patient nor the hospital actually exist.. do you see the trouble we get to when you start going off piste?

Weedle....off piste....Oh dear me.

You replied and dismissed the sexual assault of a woman as something that can be resolved by a
"Discussion using words and sentences"
A misogynistic attitude in my opinion. Hence...

So not a strawman- unless you were referring to a different post, different context (As you now seem to be trying to "clarify". I'm not sure, you're all over the shop. Now that would make sense, but you've besmirched yourself with the goto card of those floundering, the reliable 'strawman".

As I have you, you're also using "false equivalence" incorrectly. At the risk of repeating myself, its a general discussion on gender identity.
I haven't compared anything, incorrectly or otherwise.


Apologies for thread hogging to all.

Baggly

Mod

I would kindly ask those who are soapboxing about the issues at large to please reread the OP and return to some level of constructive debate based on the posts made in this thread.

IAMAMORON

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Give me the quote where I said that. Third time asking you. Come on. If you think I have said this, show me where. What’s the problem?

Check post 300, I am not getting into a clusterphuck of quotes here.

I mean what I said.

Annasopra

biko wrote: »

An adult can make decisions on their legal gender and receive surgery.
Before that, no chemicals or surgery.
m2c

That makes no sense. No surgery until they receive surgery?

Baggly

MynamesColm wrote: »

Oh, the hypothetical victim I was thinking of preferred to have a doctor she was familiar and comfortable with.


You prefer her doctor was a cold fingered woman who didn't believe she had been raped? Crikey!

Gervais08 wrote: »

And you think that’s someone that resembles the bastard who attacked her?

Or more likely would it be someone who can understand how she might be feeling?

Mod

Both of you can take a week off for bad faith posting, too.

46 Long

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Who is "our" , when you are referring to "our business"?

The 99.9% of the population who would rather not mutilate our genitalia and don't wish to see regressive, reductive terminology like 'people with a cervix' used to describe women.

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Furthermore, what has mental illness got to do with gender identity ?

Gee, I don't know. Might be that gender dysphoria is classified in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition (DSM-5)? Or the fact that treating it falls under the specialty of psychiatry and psychology?

km991148

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

*Checks OP thread rules





We're talking about gender identity and implications. Pretty wide ranging scope, as it seems the thread direction would attest





Weedle....off piste....Oh dear me.

You replied and dismissed the sexual assault of a woman as something that can be resolved by a
"Discussion using words and sentences"
A misogynistic attitude in my opinion. Hence...

So not a strawman- unless you were referring to a different post, different context (As you now seem to be trying to "clarify". I'm not sure, you're all over the shop. Now that would make sense, but you've besmirched yourself with the goto card of those floundering, the reliable 'strawman".

As I have you, you're also using "false equivalence" incorrectly. At the risk of repeating myself, its a general discussion on gender identity.
I haven't compared anything, incorrectly or otherwise.


Apologies for thread hogging to all.

In the interest of trying to put some sense to this - there seems to be a misunderstanding (this is the the danger of making up examples).


The set up was accusing me of being dismissive of a sexual assault.

Either this was in reference to the proposed one in the hypothetical (i.e. IF it is consider assault to be examined by a transgendered person when a female was asked for).

OR

in reference to a sexual assault that took place before the imaginary GYN examination.

Your situation was unclear to me.

In either situation, I wasn't being dismissive - I was clarifying that the hospital would know how to deal with this BEFORE the exam took place (by having a conversation with the patient).
Not after the exam (which is what I assume you took from it).

(yes indeed.. this made up stuff IS all over the place..)

keano_afc

Somehow, due to ignorance and inaction of others, a tiny, miniscule minority of people have managed to convince those in power that facts are no longer relevant and feelings are all that matters.

We are now at the stage where the media are banned from reporting on a dangerous, violent man being housed in a women's prison. There's no logic in that, but the feelings of mentally ill men are now more important than the safety of women.

We are at the stage where biological differences between men and women are being ignored because mentally ill men want to compete in womens sports.

We're at the stage where children are encouraged to dress as the opposite sex and spend time in the presence of cross-dressing adults. Question this, and its YOU who have the problem. We're at the stage where children are being lied to and told they are being born in the wrong bodies.

This activism is a massive problem, and only recently have people decided enough is enough.

IAMAMORON

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

That makes no sense. No surgery until they receive surgery?

I think the poster is referring to gender reassignment surgery during adulthood.

To me this really amplifies the ignorance which many people still have around the matter.

Many transsexuals considered transitioning before puberty, never mind during puberty. I get what Biko is saying as regards taking testosterone or oestrogen supplements during adolescence, but such opinions are also patronising of the adolescent mind.

It is actually a much wider debate on when a human is of sound enough mind to be able to consider transitioning. In many cases teenagers are well able to know their gender orientation.

Rodin

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Yes but it's up to rape victim to be kind.

The only responsibility a rape victim has is to tell the truth. If they want to.That's all.

Rodin

46 Long wrote: »

The 99.9% of the population who would rather not mutilate our genitalia and don't wish to see regressive, reductive terminology like 'people with a cervix' used to describe women.



Gee, I don't know. Might be that gender dysphoria is classified in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition (DSM-5)? Or the fact that treating it falls under the specialty of psychiatry and psychology?

If a female has had a hysterectomy or wasn't born with one, is she no longer a 'woman' ?

km991148

km991148 wrote: »

In the interest of trying to put some sense to this - there seems to be a misunderstanding (this is the the danger of making up examples).


The set up was accusing me of being dismissive of a sexual assault.

Either this was in reference to the proposed one in the hypothetical (i.e. IF it is consider assault to be examined by a transgendered person when a female was asked for).

OR

in reference to a sexual assault that took place before the imaginary GYN examination.

Your situation was unclear to me.

In either situation, I wasn't being dismissive - I was clarifying that the hospital would know how to deal with this BEFORE the exam took place (by having a conversation with the patient).
Not after the exam (which is what I assume you took from it).

(yes indeed.. this made up stuff IS all over the place..)

The hypothetical example was fairly clear - a woman consenting to an intimate examination, by a person she thought was a woman, but who subsequently turned out to be a trans-woman.
Is that sexual assault.

(& Maybe the hospital didn't know! Raises another point, are they vicariously liable?)

IMO, it's an interesting brand to toss in the fire; some offered an opinion, but you were the only poster who had an issue with it, and rebuked me for not conforming to your ideals of thread direction.

Nor was it a set up, but I'll accept you werent being misogynistic, just out of context. The error is yours though, don't accuse me of strawman or false equivalency!

mohawk

IAMAMORON wrote: »

As I said earlier, clinging to the example of maybe 50 transgendered persons participating in one sport or another is not a big enough reason to dispute transgender rights. It is something which each particular sporting body need to address.

It certainly is not a sufficient quotient for raising as an issue on gender equality or in the human rights of transsexuals.

People may not have the tenacity to comprehend what transsexualism is all about, but certainly screaming whataboutery about a few examples of professional sportspersons only clarifies their lack of temerity in the discussion.

I haven’t read one post on this thread saying transgender people don’t deserve equality or human rights.

They should face no discrimination when it comes to housing, healthcare, education, employment etc. You won’t get any disagreement there.

Sports is just one area where there is potential conflict between the rights of transwomen and women. Where we have safety concerns versus inclusion.

Many people in Ireland don’t really realise that transgender no longer means transsexual. There is no requirement to live as other sex, or take hormones or have surgery. You don’t need to have gender dysphoria to be transgender anymore. Any person with any level of compassion or empathy would certainly feel for someone with gender dysphoria.

Oscar Madison

You can wrap the body of a BMW around a Lada engine but it still doesn't make it a BMW!

Rodin

If I was female, Id resent being told Im a 'cis' woman as if there's another equally valid version of being a woman. A transwoman is a male pretending to be female. It's a nonsense.

Rodin

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

The hypothetical example was fairly clear - a woman consenting to an intimate examination, by a person she thought was a woman, but who subsequently turned out to be a trans-woman.
Is that sexual assault.

(& Maybe the hospital didn't know! Raises another point, are they vicariously liable?)

IMO, it's an interesting brand to toss in the fire; some offered an opinion, but you were the only poster who had an issue with it, and rebuked me for not conforming to your ideals of thread direction.

Nor was it a set up, but I'll accept you werent being misogynistic, just out of context. The error is yours though, don't accuse me of strawman or false equivalency!

If she consented to a female doing the exam then it is absolutely an assault and the HSE and therefore govt. are vicariously liable.

jam_mac_jam

mohawk wrote: »

I haven’t read one post on this thread saying transgender people don’t deserve equality or human rights.

They should face no discrimination when it comes to housing, healthcare, education, employment etc. You won’t get any disagreement there.

Sports is just one area where there is potential conflict between the rights of transwomen and women. Where we have safety concerns versus inclusion.

Many people in Ireland don’t really realise that transgender no longer means transsexual. There is no requirement to live as other sex, or take hormones or have surgery. You don’t need to have gender dysphoria to be transgender anymore. Any person with any level of compassion or empathy would certainly feel for someone with gender dysphoria.

I completely agree with you here. All people deserve and are entitled to equality and human rights.

At what point along the process does the man become a trans woman do people accept ?

Questioning their "birth assigned sex"
Coming out
Passing - (Behaving/dressing/styling etc.) as their preferred gender
At self ID via GRA
Hormone therapy?
Sex reassignment surgery?

(Notwithstanding everyone's different!)

km991148

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

The hypothetical example was fairly clear - a woman consenting to an intimate examination, by a person she thought was a woman, but who subsequently turned out to be a trans-woman.
Is that sexual assault.(? sic)

(& Maybe the hospital didn't know! Raises another point, are they vicariously liable?)

IMO, it's an interesting brand to toss in the fire; some offered an opinion, but you were the only poster who had an issue with it, and rebuked me for not conforming to your ideals of thread direction.

Nor was it a set up, but I'll accept you werent being misogynistic, just out of context. The error is yours though, don't accuse me of strawman or false equivalency!

Right - I self corrected at the end of that original post because I guessed it all hung on the IF/Question you asked. At the start of the post I thought you were referring to some other sexual assault before the exam. In my mind we hadn't even answered your original question (and tbh - I actually completely dismissed it, bare with me, below..).


I dismissed it because I would assume in that scenario - if the hospital was working with a transgendered gynaecologist, it would assume they would be fully sensitive to the issues that this may pose and they would know how to handle this - presumably by speaking with both the Doctor and with the patients that requested a specific sex/gender.

And this is where I have an issue with these hypothetical scenarios - good for asking an initial question (And I accept you ask this one in good faith), but hard to reach any agreement as everyone brings further assumptions to the table because we have no facts to base it on (i.e. I assume the hospital would have a transgendered sensitive policy and others may assume they don't and would therefore be negligent - who knows - I( think its entirely reasonable to assume they would, but then people fcuk things up all the time so who knows..).

If there were some news story where some patient was pressing charges for being misinformed (or more likely in Ireland, suing) then we would have a lot more details via news articles etc.

Necro

Sittingpretty wrote: »

You REALLY hate women.

Worth the ban/warning.

Mod:

Don't post in this thread again

km991148

km991148 wrote: »

Right - I self corrected at the end of that original post because I guessed it all hung on the IF/Question you asked. At the start of the post I thought you were referring to some other sexual assault before the exam. In my mind we hadn't even answered your original question (and tbh - I actually completely dismissed it, bare with me, below..).


I dismissed it because I would assume in that scenario - if the hospital was working with a transgendered gynaecologist, it would assume they would be fully sensitive to the issues that this may pose and they would know how to handle this - presumably by speaking with both the Doctor and with the patients that requested a specific sex/gender.

And this is where I have an issue with these hypothetical scenarios - good for asking an initial question (And I accept you ask this one in good faith), but hard to reach any agreement as everyone brings further assumptions to the table because we have no facts to base it on (i.e. I assume the hospital would have a transgendered sensitive policy and others may assume they don't and would therefore be negligent - who knows - I( think its entirely reasonable to assume they would, but then people fcuk things up all the time so who knows..).

If there were some news story where some patient was pressing charges for being misinformed (or more likely in Ireland, suing) then we would have a lot more details via news articles etc.

Let's just move on!

IAMAMORON

mohawk wrote: »

I haven’t read one post on this thread saying transgender people don’t deserve equality or human rights.

I am not sure what thread you have reading to be honest?

There is a definite tone of discontentment from many posters, in particular with the audacity of transsexuals asking to have their rights and their gender respected.

It is not much to ask and as I have said on numerous occasions, how someone else wants their own gender identified as is really no one else's business. Drumming up a few examples of sportspersons or other unique hypothetical scenarios is really irrelevant.

km991148

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Let's just move on!

No - now I am interested in you question lol!!

:pac:


You can boil down my whole reply as - no I don't believe it would be an assault because I think the hospital would have a policy in place to not make the patient feel uncomfortable/assaulted in the first place.

46 Long

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I am not sure what thread you have reading to be honest?.

Find me one post on this thread saying transgender people don’t deserve equality or human rights. I'll wait.

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I am not sure what thread you have reading to be honest?

There is a definite tone of discontentment from many posters, in particular with the audacity of transsexuals asking to have their rights and their gender respected.

It is not much to ask and as I have said on numerous occasions, how someone else wants their own gender identified as is really no one else's business. Drumming up a few examples of sportspersons or other unique hypothetical scenarios is really irrelevant.

TBF, as an advocate of lists, maybe denounce those who would deprive a trans person their rights...


Most here accept trans people should be able to live their lives as their preferred gender until (and this is the nub of it) the rights of others are impacted accomdating the transperson.

IAMAMORON

Rodin wrote: »

If I was female, Id resent being told Im a 'cis' woman as if there's another equally valid version of being a woman. A transwoman is a male pretending to be female. It's a nonsense.

I am male. I don't have any issues with being referred to as cis-gendered or biological or whatever. I certainly have no issue with a transman being a former woman who has transitioned to being a male. That transman's gender identity is really none of my business.

There is nothing nonsensical about it. The only nonsense is non transgenders who refuse to accept it as a reality.

IAMAMORON

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

the rights of others are impacted accomdating the transperson.

How?

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

How?

Let's use the much ventilated example - sports

IAMAMORON

46 Long wrote: »

Find me one post on this thread saying transgender people don’t deserve equality or human rights. I'll wait.

I will get back to you later in the week, if you don't mind?