Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Gatling

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

And just to point out, because many people will dismiss a Daily Mail link, the Times UK also reported this.

Of course they will ,
As I said it went very quite when I posted about the report into their operations , suddenly the same few post in minutes of each other .

Imagine taking a 4 year old to a gender reassignment appointment and thinking it's (A) normal (b) acceptable that a 4 year old could understand what there woke parents are signing them up for ,
Most 4 years olds can barely tie their shoe laces or are capable of understanding complex ideas and hormone treatments

political analyst

Gatling wrote: »

Only 10 mins but worth a watch

https://www.channel4.com/news/children-have-been-very-seriously-damaged-by-nhs-gender-clinic-says-former-tavistock-staff-governor


More on the damage puberty blocker

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9218463/Puberty-blockers-impair-height-growth-bone-density-data-reveals.html

Given that Section 28 of the Local Government Act in the UK was abolished long ago, why would a girl who is attracted to other girls prefer to regard herself as a boy trapped in a female body rather than acknowledge that she is a lesbian?

Gatling

political analyst wrote: »

why would a girl who is attracted to other girls prefer to regard herself as a boy trapped in a female body rather than acknowledge that she is a lesbian?

That is an interesting question , to me it's seems to be a way of dealing with awkward situations , look the celeb craze oh hi everyone I'm now part of the LGBT community ,oh really which part of the community are you exactly ,the B part so your bisexual ahh ok ,then it's I'm fully gay ie come out as lesbian who's trans inclusive and then I'm trans .
Much to applause and fanfare of oh your so amazing and so brave but what exactly have do for the praise nothing really just posted on social media , while showing pictures of their lesbian other halfs ,
In this day and age I didn't think girls felt any shame in being lesbian that they would use the excuse they are really a boy who's straight who only dates lesbians .

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

And just to point out, because many people will dismiss a Daily Mail link, the Times UK also reported this.

Oh I won’t dismiss it. From the same article:

Researchers said most people taking part in the study reported no psychological issues and were happier and had better relationships with family and peers once their puberty-blocking treatment had started.

The children were also deemed highly likely to suffer 'severe psychological distress' if they were to progress naturally to the point of full pubertal development.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

The children were also deemed highly likely to suffer 'severe psychological distress' if they were to progress naturally to the point of full pubertal development.

This is where child mental health supports are needed Vs telling the them puberty blockers is the cure for whatever is troubling them

Were still not getting the full story


The study was small and did not have a control group, which makes drawing definitive conclusions from the findings difficult.

Those behind the study acknowledged these flaws and said bigger, longer-term studies are required.

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

This is where child mental health supports are needed Vs telling the them puberty blockers is the cure for whatever is troubling them

Were still not getting the full story


The study was small and did not have a control group, which makes drawing definitive conclusions from the findings difficult.

Those behind the study acknowledged these flaws and said bigger, longer-term studies are required.

Wow you seemed all for the study when you thought it was about bone density findings.....

Now there’s a part you don’t like and it’s SAMPLE SIZE TOO SMALL

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

Now there’s a part you don’t like and it’s SAMPLE SIZE TOO SMALL

Where did I say that exactly .

Anything coming out of that **** hole of a center should be taken with a large pinch of salt ,hence why they refused to hand over documents in the recent court case involving puberty blockers which they lost.

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

Where did I say that exactly .

Anything coming out of that **** hole of a center should be taken with a large pinch of salt ,hence why they refused to hand over documents in the recent court case involving puberty blockers which they lost.

You said it here:

The study was small and did not have a control group, which makes drawing definitive conclusions from the findings difficult.

This is just so odd. You’re criticising a study that YOU originally posted. I don’t think I can debate you anymore. It’s just too.......weird.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

You said it here:



This is just so odd. You’re criticising a study that YOU originally posted.

I didn't criticise it your implying i did I just posted the article and the information in it ,your making the rest of it up .

I do believe that the institute should be closed permanently it's nothing but a science experiment with little or no over sight

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

They do but presenting cancer patients as somehow privileged or indirectly suggesting that the death risk is similar for cancer patients and transgender men who want gender reassignment procedures is just not the way to go about it.

There is also the very real possibility that many breast surgeons aren’t comfortable with the idea of removing healthy breast tissue. Like I said earlier, breast surgeons are sometimes not even keen on performing preventative mastectomies on women with cancer gene mutations. Maybe some surgeons just don’t agree ethically with elective mastectomies and don’t want to perform them.

Adding to this, I’d imagine breast removal and reconstruction for breast cancer surgery, and breast removal for gender reassignment might be very different. I’m not a doctor so this is supposition on my part. But for cancer surgery, the goal in the case of removal of breasts is to repair the concave wound (depending on how deep the surgery had to go) or shaping realistic breasts in the case of reconstruction. The latter is done by a plastic surgeon, I imagine, except maybe in the cases where removal and reconstruction are done in the one operation.

Whereas for breast removal for gender reassignment, the goal must be to make the chest area look like that of a man. I'm not sure if that would be in the wheelhouse of many breast surgeons. That might be a plastic surgeon’s role. I’m not sure. The point I’m making is that the refusal to carry out the operation might be to do with a lack of specific skills by a surgeon. And if that surgeon lacks those skills, they are right to not take on the surgery.

So I guess what transgender activists need to push for is for doctors to go into that field and receive the extra training that would allow them to carry out the gender reassignment surgery. It’s easy to see why in a low population country like Ireland, it might be difficult to find a surgeon willing to do that extra training. I wonder how many people from Ireland have top surgery every year. Anyone know?

Gatling

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Adding to this, I’d imagine breast removal and reconstruction for breast cancer surgery, and breast removal for gender reassignment might be very different. I’m not a doctor so this is supposition on my part.


So I guess what transgender activists need to push for is for doctors to go into that field and receive the extra training that would allow them to carry out the gender reassignment surgery. It’s easy to see why in a low population country like Ireland, it might be difficult to find a surgeon willing to do that extra training. I wonder how many people from Ireland have top surgery every year. Anyone know?

I'd imagine one surgery is life saving treatment Vs elective non life saving surgery.
I believe less than 100 people have had reassignment surgery here over the last 25 years ,there's been government funding available since the 90s for various surgeries ,yet numbers have fallen to several a year but we were told it would be in the thousands ,
Pure nonsense led by a small cohort of activists , but we do get excuse after excuse why people aren't having reassignment surgery ,
It's identity politics 101 you claim anything you want but want to keep the ability to switch and choose at will ,
Woman Monday till Wednesday and be a man and Thursday - Sunday and switch again .
Lesbian one day , straight on another ,gay man another back again

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gatling wrote: »

I'd imagine one surgery is life saving treatment Vs elective non life saving surgery.
I believe less than 100 people have had reassignment surgery here over the last 25 years ,there's been government funding available since the 90s for various surgeries ,yet numbers have fallen to several a year but we were told it would be in the thousands ,
Pure nonsense led by a small cohort of activists , but we do get excuse after excuse why people aren't having reassignment surgery ,
It's identity politics 101 you claim anything you want but want to keep the ability to switch and choose at will ,
Woman Monday till Wednesday and be a man and Thursday - Sunday and switch again .
Lesbian one day , straight on another ,gay man another back again

Well, weirdly the guy who Taryn was talking about believes there is a conspiracy against him. This is the full tweet thread:





I don’t know, it’s just a bit paranoid or something? If anything, the HSE seems to be bending over backwards to accommodate transgender people (removing the word ‘woman’ from but including the words ‘transgender man’ in public health literature). Maybe the doctor who assessed him really was concerned that he had some mental health problems. I can see why the referral wouldn’t be given in that case. It’s very serious surgery and there’s no going back once it’s done.

Gatling

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, weirdly the guy who Taryn was talking about believes there is a conspiracy against him. This is the full tweet thread:





I don’t know, it’s just a bit paranoid or something? If anything, the HSE seems to be bending over backwards to accommodate transgender people (removing the word ‘woman’ from but including the words ‘transgender man’ in public health literature). Maybe the doctor who assessed him really was concerned that he had some mental health problems. I can see why the referral wouldn’t be given in that case. It’s very serious surgery and there’s no going back once it’s done.

What's direct provision got to do with his elective surgery , that he claimed he was forced to remove his own stiches ,he could have easily gone to his local gp to have them removed,
Wonder if woman who fly to the UK or turkey for plastic surgery don't think there is a conspiracy against them

I wonder if he has documentation to back up his claim of refusal of surgery due to mental health issues

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gatling wrote: »

What's direct provision got to do with his elective surgery , that he claimed he was forced to remove his own stiches ,he could have easily gone to his local gp to have them removed,
Wonder if woman who fly to the UK or turkey for plastic surgery don't think there is a conspiracy against them

I wonder if he has documentation to back up his claim of refusal of surgery due to mental health issues

Yeah, that stitches thing is obvious BS. He didn’t have an illegal operation. A GP or nurse wouldn’t hesitate to remove the stitches. It’s not like abortion, where women couldn’t seek aftercare for abortions for fear of being arrested.

I think with the direct provision thing, Taryn is saying that vocal opponents of it experienced some kind of government resistance over some matter and that this is the same, somebody being discriminated against for being an activist. It sounds a little far-fetched to me.

political analyst

https://www.kwtx.com/2021/01/27/fort-hood-chaplains-facebook-post-on-order-lifting-transgender-troop-ban-under-investigation/

A Facebook post in which Maj. Andrew Calvert, the unit chaplain for Fort Hood’s 3rd Security Force Assistance Brigade, criticized President Joe Biden’s executive order lifting a ban on transgender troops is under investigation, the unit’s spokesman, Maj. Jefferson T. Grimes, confirmed to the Army Times.

Gatling

political analyst wrote: »

https://www.kwtx.com/2021/01/27/fort-hood-chaplains-facebook-post-on-order-lifting-transgender-troop-ban-under-investigation/

Fear ,speak up and be punished everyone should be free to voice their opinions ,

Daragh1980

Taryn is an attention seeking flake

LLMMLL

political analyst wrote: »

https://www.kwtx.com/2021/01/27/fort-hood-chaplains-facebook-post-on-order-lifting-transgender-troop-ban-under-investigation/

Seems fair enough. He is obviously a bit thick.

There are plenty of cis people (such as myself) who agree that trans women are women. So by his standards we are also mentally unfit to serve. Yet he only targets trans people.

Which shows he is prejudiced against trans people.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

Seems fair enough. He is obviously a bit thick.

There are plenty of cis people (such as myself) who agree that trans women are women.

I'd say he's more intelligent than others

Plenty of people don't get into the military based off mental health issues or physical issues ,
It's the reason for having rigorous standards on candidates male and female,

It's nothing to do with trans ,if your considered vulnerable you won't make a great soldier and your fellow soldiers won't trust you In combat or a firefight

CtevenSrowder

LLMMLL wrote: »

Seems fair enough. He is obviously a bit thick.

There are plenty of cis people (such as myself) who agree that trans women are women. So by his standards we are also mentally unfit to serve. Yet he only targets trans people.

Which shows he is prejudiced against trans people.

There are many misogynists who think the same, who constantly label people, particularly (actual) women TERFs, and don't have the courage to admit they do it as an insult.

It's no surprise that it's under investigation really. The military has always been based around towing the line. Regardless, his argument is all wrong. I'm sure many in the American military deny that Global warming is being accelerated by humans, upon which one could make the exact arguments he has (though not as strong an argument).

Trans-people in my opinion should be able to serve. What should not happen however is any of their surgeries be paid for by the military, as that is not what military healthcare is for (unless it becomes accepted again that being trans is a mental condition).

One eyed Jack

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Trans-people in my opinion should be able to serve. What should not happen however is any of their surgeries be paid for by the military, as that is not what military healthcare is for (unless it becomes accepted again that being trans is a mental condition).

What is military healthcare for then, if not for... providing healthcare for military personnel and their families?

It seems like such an obvious point, but clearly I’m missing something.

One eyed Jack

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

They do but presenting cancer patients as somehow privileged or indirectly suggesting that the death risk is similar for cancer patients and transgender men who want gender reassignment procedures is just not the way to go about it.

The very first line in my post you’re responding to though, I said there’s no defending the attempt to make a comparison that Noah Halpin made, nothing excuses that sort of divisive rhetoric, and I’m not defending it. At the same time, a person is entitled to make whatever comparisons they wish, and anyone else is still entitled to disagree with their opinion. There’s no right or wrong way to go about any campaign, there are only differences of opinion. The divisive rhetoric used by Noah Halpin resonates with a lot of people all the same, which is what it was meant to do. Whether anyone finds it appropriate or inappropriate is another matter entirely.

I did actually listen to the rest of the interview and apart from the fact that it strikes me as a half-hour long advertisement for GenderGP services (the couple behind it, both GPs, were struck off by the GMC in the UK moved to Spain and carried on providing their services to people all over the world, backed by a Japanese healthcare company), and if mention of the term ‘cis’ bothers anyone, I’d suggest giving the podcast a miss, because it’s mentioned a lot, basically as a means of setting up an “us vs them” scenario, which commonly regards the medical profession as ‘gatekeepers’ in terms of transgender healthcare. It’s a complete fabrication of course, but meh, identity politics.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

There is also the very real possibility that many breast surgeons aren’t comfortable with the idea of removing healthy breast tissue. Like I said earlier, breast surgeons are sometimes not even keen on performing preventative mastectomies on women with cancer gene mutations. Maybe some surgeons just don’t agree ethically with elective mastectomies and don’t want to perform them.

That’s part of it alright, and it’s not just surgeons but also GPs who don’t appear willing to provide healthcare services for patients who are transgender quite simply because they’re not trained to provide healthcare for people who are transgender. The responsibility for the lack of transgender healthcare provision as far as Noel Halpin is concerned though (and I agree with them on this much at least), lies with the HSE. It’s simply a fact that the healthcare services provided by the HSE are inadequate, due to lack of training and education among healthcare professionals.

You’re right though, the surgeries are completely different, completely unrelated too, but that wasn’t Noel Halpin’s point. Their point was the differences in how people who are cisgender and people who are transgender are treated in the Irish public health system. I get their point, even though I disagree with how Noel Halpin chose to make it.

CtevenSrowder

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What is military healthcare for then, if not for... providing healthcare for military personnel and their families?

It seems like such an obvious point, but clearly I’m missing something.

Granted America may be different. But usually the military only pays for surgeries that are required when someone has become injured, especially when on exercise or deployment. It will not pay for any type of cosmetic surgery, which is what the surgeries for trans-people ultimately are.

To answer your question, cosmetic surgery isn't healthcare.

Natterjack from Kerry

LLMMLL wrote: »

Seems fair enough. He is obviously a bit thick.

There are plenty of cis people (such as myself) who agree that trans women are women. So by his standards we are also mentally unfit to serve.

Is there not a significant difference though, that the trans woman truly believes they are a woman? While you might agree they are women, you dont believe it as such. Not being trans, you know fundamentally that they are still men. But are open minded enough, agreeable enough, and flexible enough to be happy to call someone by whatever description they wish. So you are being a civil and decent person, rather than mentally unfit in any way to serve.

One eyed Jack

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Granted America may be different. But usually the military only pays for surgeries that are required when someone has become injured, especially when on exercise or deployment. It will not pay for any type of cosmetic surgery, which is what the surgeries for trans-people ultimately are.

To answer your question, cosmetic surgery isn't healthcare.

The US Defence Forces doesn’t pay for anything, nor does the Irish Defence Forces for that matter. It’s down to insurance companies policies as to whether or not they include transgender healthcare services. The health insurance provider for the US Defence Forces does, and in Ireland I know of one health insurance provider who provides insurance for transgender healthcare.

Whether a procedure is cosmetic, elective or even medically necessary isn’t the sole determining factor. There are a couple of determining factors when health insurance companies are deciding whether or not to cover any procedures, or what procedures they will or won’t cover, including trying to squirm out of providing cover for procedures they would normally provide cover for by hiding behind ‘rules’ based upon gender discrimination, which is why they were fined. They too were of the opinion that cosmetic surgery is not healthcare. It is though, but I can understand why in some people’s opinion they don’t consider it healthcare or medically necessary or any of the rest of it.

In Ireland the HSE is the provider of public healthcare and that’s why they are obligated to provide appropriate healthcare for people who are transgender in the same way as they provide healthcare for the rest of the general public (granted one could make the point that people who are transgender are equally entitled to avail of inadequate mental health services as anyone else), but their reasoning for not providing for surgeries related to transgender healthcare is simply based upon numbers, not whether or not the procedures are cosmetic, elective, medically necessary or anything else -

The HSE said the numbers needing treatment were too low to justify providing a specialised service here.

HSE funds treatment for 28 people to change gender in 2016


Noah Halpin’s point is that the provision of healthcare for people who are transgender shouldn’t be based upon numbers, but that’s what all decisions relating to any kind of healthcare provision services comes down to - the numbers simply don’t justify the cost of providing the service, so it’s outsourced through the Treatment Abroad Scheme, because it’s considerably cheaper to do so than providing the same services here in Ireland. Obviously if one doesn’t want to (or can’t afford to) travel abroad to avail of the services, they’re going to argue that the services should be provided here in Ireland by the HSE as part of the public health system. Other people who can afford to do so simply go private as the cost of treatments is covered by their health insurance provider.

Gruffalux

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Is there not a significant difference though, that the trans woman truly believes they are a woman? While you might agree they are women, you dont believe it as such. Not being trans, you know fundamentally that they are still men. But are open minded enough, agreeable enough, and flexible enough to be happy to call someone by whatever description they wish. So you are being a civil and decent person, rather than mentally unfit in any way to serve.

You don't know LLMMLL's belief system, which is that the trans person has literally become the sex with which they identify, that the affirmation therapies etc are merely confirmation of what the person always has been. There is no polite civility there - it is true faith-based belief in transubstantiation.
One of the big difficulties that this throws up are de-transitioners. Because they are either a) transmigrating randomly between sexes in sequence which is unstable for the philosophy or b) were not real trans in the beginning, which leads to tricky issues re how does one weed out the real from the unreal, a dilemma which takes us deep into complex metaphysics and gender theology.

On a somewhat related note I saw these members of what has to be described as a cult today. It is a very primitive and regressive belief system, I often find when I observe from outside - here we see ''boy things'' differentiated from ''girl things'' in an utterly square world view and a very small child answering as per the conditioning parent's religious dogma.
People with gender dysphoria exists, it causes terrible suffering, some of them benefit greatly from transitioning to express their gender opposite to their natal sex, and that is cool. I follow several and find them brilliant. But this shyte generally, such as in the video, and the demand that everyone get into lockstep with a broad and crazy gender theory ideology, is just not tolerable.

https://twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath/status/1358063494999011328?s=20

Gatling

For Christ sake where do people actually believe that crap

mohawk

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Granted America may be different. But usually the military only pays for surgeries that are required when someone has become injured, especially when on exercise or deployment. It will not pay for any type of cosmetic surgery, which is what the surgeries for trans-people ultimately are.

To answer your question, cosmetic surgery isn't healthcare.

My thinking on this is that there are TRA’s saying that being Transgender shouldn’t be pathologised and doctors etc are ‘gatekeeping’. Gender Dysphoria is being recategorised so it is no longer considered a mental health diagnosis.
So if it’s not a medical issue or a mental health issue why is there a need for a Public Health Service to provide surgery’s? If there isn’t a medical need for a surgery then it is by definition cosmetic. If you want cosmetic surgery then it should be out of your own pocket.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s part of it alright, and it’s not just surgeons but also GPs who don’t appear willing to provide healthcare services for patients who are transgender quite simply because they’re not trained to provide healthcare for people who are transgender.

Don't appear willing , they get the access and medical care as the rest of us ,
Surgeons don't do elective surgeries on demand , likely they would do a mastectomy on a trans person who several years de transition and decides to sue the surgeon for doing what they demanded in the first place ,
The fact the government has made funding available for surgeries and yet very few have had any kind surgeries over the last 25 years .
If you decide to go a foreign country for elective surgeries cosmetic wise ,it's up to you to organise your own after care with your gp or medical center .
There doesn't need to be specialist trans care ,they are no difference to you ,me and everyone else.

I'd rather they got off their holes and sort the mess that is child and adult special needs service's


Oddly enough a woman can get a boob job by the US military as part of plastic surgery training for battlefield injuries reconstructions

_Godot_

From a BBC article in 2017, the US military spent $84m (£63m) on viagara. Not the most essential medication.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40741785