Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Gatling

_Godot_ wrote: »

From a BBC article in 2017, the US military spent $84m (£63m) [/quote/]

A little reading

In fact, less than 10% of the prescriptions were for active duty personnel, according to the Military Times.

However, a key statistic buried in the AFHSB study of active duty personnel between 2004 and 2013 suggests one should be cautious of reading too much into the links between America's recent wars, PTSD and erectile dysfunction in relation to the military's massive spend on Viagra.

Personnel who had never been deployed were actually more likely to suffer from erectile dysfunction than their counterparts who had been.

Finally, erectile dysfunction is linked to common conditions, including heart disease, high blood pressure, and diabetes.

Smacruairi

_Godot_ wrote: »

From a BBC article in 2017, the US military spent $84m (£63m) on viagara. Not the most essential medication.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40741785

Sounds like it is being prescribed to assist with side effects and mental conditions which if left unchecked could be disastrous for those men. Then again I dunt know how extortionate thst figure is against the amount spent on other medicines.

Also viagra was originally conceived as a blood pressure medicine and is still used as such in cases as far as I know.

Gatling

Also there are currently 18 million US army veterans alive ,
Several times our population ,

Natterjack from Kerry

Gruffalux wrote: »

People with gender dysphoria exists, it causes terrible suffering, some of them benefit greatly from transitioning to express their gender opposite to their natal sex, and that is cool. I follow several and find them brilliant. But this shyte generally, such as in the video, and the demand that everyone get into lockstep with a broad and crazy gender theory ideology, is just not tolerable.

Sure, and its fine that people that want to go through whatever changes can do it. And we can generally go along with it. But yes, the demand that everyone, that doesnt have the condition, truly believe that they have changed sex, is a step too far. Other than transitioners, no one really does buy in to that. But to different degrees is willing to accommodate going along with helping them, though agree, the idea that everyone truly get on their wavelength is an expectation too far. Not sure its an ideology though ?

LLMMLL

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Is there not a significant difference though, that the trans woman truly believes they are a woman? While you might agree they are women, you dont believe it as such. Not being trans, you know fundamentally that they are still men. But are open minded enough, agreeable enough, and flexible enough to be happy to call someone by whatever description they wish. So you are being a civil and decent person, rather than mentally unfit in any way to serve.

No I know they are women.

Gatling

The US military is also providing trans care(including veterans) which make a completely moot point

Natterjack from Kerry

LLMMLL wrote: »

No I know they are women.

Fair, enough, but that can only be by bending or redefining the meaning of words. I can say I am typing this on a crocodile, but if we all redefine words willy nilly language becomes useless. So not sure what the benefit of going through such mental gymnastics to go along with trans person is. Call them a women alright, but there is no need to go so far as to make yourself believe it too, or go bending words so that you can say they are without feeling you are just doing so not to offend.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

No I know they are women.

Even when they don't even know

Gatling

On the whole US army nonsense close to 10,000 soldiers identify as trans ,a number of vets also identify as trans ,you would be hard to find another employer who has that many trans personal on their books

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gatling wrote: »

Don't appear willing , they get the access and medical care as the rest of us ,
Surgeons don't do elective surgeries on demand , likely they would do a mastectomy on a trans person who several years de transition and decides to sue the surgeon for doing what they demanded in the first place ,
The fact the government has made funding available for surgeries and yet very few have had any kind surgeries over the last 25 years .
If you decide to go a foreign country for elective surgeries cosmetic wise ,it's up to you to organise your own after care with your gp or medical center .
There doesn't need to be specialist trans care ,they are no difference to you ,me and everyone else.

I'd rather they got off their holes and sort the mess that is child and adult special needs service's


Oddly enough a woman can get a boob job by the US military as part of plastic surgery training for battlefield injuries reconstructions

That doesn’t seem odd to me. It’s repairing an injury to a body part.

Natterjack from Kerry

Gatling wrote: »

On the whole US army nonsense close to 10,000 soldiers identify as trans ,a number of vets also identify as trans ,you would be hard to find another employer who has that many trans personal on their books

Not sure any other employer has 1.25M people on their books. As a rate, that's not far off the stats for the US as a whole anyway. Wiki gives national census of 0.6%.

One eyed Jack

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That doesn’t seem odd to me. It’s repairing an injury to a body part.

If I’m not mistaken, Gatling is suggesting that women can simply choose to have the procedure paid for by their insurance provider, which is paid for by the Federal Government, not the US Defence Forces. It’s one of those “grain of truth but not quite as simple as that” stories -


Is the Rumor About Free Breast Implants for Milspouses True?

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Don't appear willing , they get the access and medical care as the rest of us ,

If by “access and medical care as the rest of us”, you mean they get an equally sub-standard level of healthcare as those people who have to endure the public health system, sure, you have a point, which is why I can understand why they would campaign for more appropriate publicly funded healthcare services to meet their specific needs, which are not being met in the current system.

Gatling wrote: »

Surgeons don't do elective surgeries on demand , likely they would do a mastectomy on a trans person who several years de transition and decides to sue the surgeon for doing what they demanded in the first place ,

Likely? How likely do you reckon? That could happen in any case, it’s why they have to be insured in the first place, precisely because if they are sued, the insurance claim will be covered.

Gatling wrote: »

The fact the government has made funding available for surgeries and yet very few have had any kind surgeries over the last 25 years .

Depending upon how you want to look at it, that’s either a good thing or a bad thing, and there are a number of contributing factors and reasons for the low numbers of people wishing to avail of treatments provided in other countries outside of Ireland.

Gatling wrote: »

If you decide to go a foreign country for elective surgeries cosmetic wise ,it's up to you to organise your own after care with your gp or medical center .

That’s the current situation as it is now, and for the people concerned, it’s simply unacceptable and inadequate for their needs. ODB suggested for example that Noah Halpin removing their own stitches was BS, without recognising the fact that while it’s an easy procedure for any nurse, the fact is that the medical profession aren’t very understanding of transgender patients or concerns around transgender healthcare, and compassion for their circumstances is often lacking, which discourages people who are transgender from using the services which they feel do not meet their needs.

Gatling wrote: »

There doesn't need to be specialist trans care ,they are no difference to you ,me and everyone else.

There does need to be specialist transgender healthcare, because while they are of course no different to you and I, their healthcare needs are unquestionably different to any healthcare needs you or I might have. I can categorically state for a fact that I don’t need to inject myself with a daily regimen of hormones, nor will I ever need a hysterectomy for example. Viagra? Not yet at least, touch wood.

Gatling wrote: »

I'd rather they got off their holes and sort the mess that is child and adult special needs service's

Absolutely, I hear you, but here’s the thing - we both know it’s not a zero sum game where any one service will further degrade if funding is provided for other services. Absolutely children and adults special needs services need to be appropriately provided for and appropriate supports provided for, but that doesn’t mean that transgender healthcare services can’t be provided for either, or that adult and children’s special needs services would deteriorate if transgender healthcare services were provided for. It’s simply not the case that there is any sort of a Hobson’s choice between one service or another. People can campaign for both services too, there’s no need to pit one group of people against another when their goals or aims are a more adequate and appropriate public healthcare system which provides appropriate healthcare services for everyone in society.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If I’m not mistaken, Gatling is suggesting that women can simply choose

Yes and yes they do ,

And there not spouses they are active female soldiers who have had various plastic surgeries carried out by US military surgeons

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Yes and yes they do ,

And there not spouses they are active female soldiers who have had various plastic surgeries carried out by US military surgeons

And like I said, it’s not quite as simple as that. The article I linked to gives a more comprehensive explanation of the whole story, but for clarity -


The doctor told me that he must complete a certain number of procedures each year to fulfill licensing and board certification requirements. In addition, teaching hospitals need patients to "practice" on. The doctor has indeed performed cosmetic procedures on both active-duty personnel, and their spouses.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If by “access and medical care as the rest of us”, sure, they get an equally sub-standard level of healthcare as those people who have to endure the public health system,

There does need to be specialist transgender healthcare, because while they are of course no different to you and I,

They do not need special care or treatment above anyone else , everything thing can and is currently covered by our health services ,
We even pay for gender surgeries ,but less than 100 in 25 years have had some form of surgeries ,
I'd imagine it's down to lack of interest and needs for any kind of special trans medical care treatment

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

They do not need special care or treatment above anyone else , everything thing can and is currently covered by our health services ,
We even pay for gender surgeries ,but less than 100 in 25 years have had some form of surgeries ,
I'd imagine it's down to lack of interest and needs for any kind of special trans medical care treatment

You’re missing the point! If people are paying for their own treatments and accommodation in other countries like the UK, Poland and Thailand, then of course the numbers availing of any services here are going to be low. It’s not down to lack of interest, it’s down to lack of affordability and lack of availability, which is why there are hundreds, if not thousands of individuals starting gofundme campaigns to fund specific treatments and aftercare which are not provided for here in Ireland under the current public healthcare system.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

. It’s not down to lack of interest, it’s down to lack of affordability and lack of availability, .

Despite the government Covering something like €30,000 for surgery,
Can I get €30,000 to get some work done ,no why ?

As I said Bar something very specific all the medical care is available here ,like its available to you ,me and anyone else on boards

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Despite the government Covering something like €30,000 for surgery,
Can I get €30,000 to get some work done ,no why ?

As I said Bar something very specific all the medical care is available here ,like its available to you ,me and anyone else on boards

According to you, anyone can if they’re eligible for it. Depends on the work anyone wants done, doesn’t it? It’s the something very specific that’s not available to anyone which people who are transgender require, which people who are not transgender, don’t require. Other people may have different needs which are specific to their circumstances which also aren’t provided for appropriately under the current healthcare system, and in that regard everyone is entitled to campaign for better and more appropriate healthcare services to be provided on the public healthcare system, because it’s meant to be providing effective healthcare for everyone in society, not just one lobby group or another.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

According to you, anyone can if they’re eligible for it.

According to me anyone ,

ehhh No .

It's a government fund for gender reassignment related surgeries ,

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

appropriate healthcare services to be provided on the public healthcare system, because it’s meant to be providing effective healthcare for everyone in society, not just one lobby group or another.

Exactly appropriate healthcare for everyone .

Not just lobby groups wants or demands

Gruffalux

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Sure, and its fine that people that want to go through whatever changes can do it. And we can generally go along with it. But yes, the demand that everyone, that doesnt have the condition, truly believe that they have changed sex, is a step too far. Other than transitioners, no one really does buy in to that. But to different degrees is willing to accommodate going along with helping them, though agree, the idea that everyone truly get on their wavelength is an expectation too far. Not sure its an ideology though ?

There are many definitions of ideology but they circle around the same constituents. A set of intellectual ideas to ''explain'' the world, centred around intellectuals who have theorised the ideas (eg Marx) and then attracting a very committed band of adherents to the ideas, who seek to not only explain the world but change it according to the ideas in which they have faith.
In religion this faith is based upon various metaphysical apprehensions of the world whereas in ideology it is based on abstract reasoning. Since reason can be wholly conditioned by ideas not based in objective reality I think one can argue there are similarities.
Not to side step too much but look at Marx's theories - written as if by reason they must naturally manifest (the dialectic). But they did not manifest automatically - it required shepherding of the proletariat by the intellectual elites (Leninism). And yet still would not manifest naturally in European societies. It was then theorised by people like Gramsci that where culture was strong that the culture must be weakened first before the Marxist revolution naturally arises. This is all abstract ''reasoning''. Human objective reality is completely lost in the intellectual mix.

Here is an example of what ideology means written by a historian which is based on an older definition

https://www.britannica.com/topic/ideology-society

Ideology in the stricter sense stays fairly close to Destutt de Tracy’s original conception and may be identified by five characteristics:
(1) it contains an explanatory theory of a more or less comprehensive kind about human experience and the external world;
(2) it sets out a program, in generalized and abstract terms, of social and political organization;
(3) it conceives the realization of this program as entailing a struggle;
(4) it seeks not merely to persuade but to recruit loyal adherents, demanding what is sometimes called commitment;
(5) it addresses a wide public but may tend to confer some special role of leadership on intellectuals.

Note the intellectuals in the case of Gender Theory Ideology would star Judith Butler and others such as Joan Scott.

But post modern ideology also plays a big role. And you can google that yourself. Lacan, Derrida, Foucault. This article gives an over view.

https://www.encyclopedia.com/international/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/gender-theory

Others among many. Choose yourself.

There is wholesale ideology at play around this entire issue.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_theory

https://repository.uchastings.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3289&context=hastings_law_journal

ingalway

Irish College of GPs reverses stance on puberty blockers

Some sanity at last. Or probably scared of the lawsuits coming their way:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/irish-college-of-gps-reverses-stance-on-puberty-blockers-nh7kj6xbm

Sir Oxman

ingalway wrote: »

Irish College of GPs reverses stance on puberty blockers

Some sanity at last. Or probably scared of the lawsuits coming their way:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/irish-college-of-gps-reverses-stance-on-puberty-blockers-nh7kj6xbm

"The ICGP guide to providing care for transgender patients, written by Dr Des Crowley and Vanessa Lacey, also stated that oestrogen and testosterone therapy were “partially reversible interventions”. Crowley is an assistant director of the ICGP addiction management programme, while Lacey is health and education manager with Transgender Equality Network Ireland (Teni), a group that lobbies for transgender rights."


This is the problem right there - everywhere you look, lobbyists are given prime positions and appear to dictate the entire outcome, in this case to medical professionals!
Commission on GRA, lobbyist as chairperson, self-id lashed on at the last minute.
https://www.iglyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/IGLYO_v3-1.pdf

Extend that to the whole gamut of dangerous critcial theory, which is everywhere in NGOs etc and it's clear the time has come for the general public to open their eyes.

Annasopra

mohawk wrote: »

My thinking on this is that there are TRA’s saying that being Transgender shouldn’t be pathologised and doctors etc are ‘gatekeeping’. Gender Dysphoria is being recategorised so it is no longer considered a mental health diagnosis.
So if it’s not a medical issue or a mental health issue why is there a need for a Public Health Service to provide surgery’s? If there isn’t a medical need for a surgery then it is by definition cosmetic. If you want cosmetic surgery then it should be out of your own pocket.

I dont think anyone ever said theres no medical issue

Annasopra

Gatling wrote: »

They do not need special care or treatment above anyone else , everything thing can and is currently covered by our health services ,
We even pay for gender surgeries ,but less than 100 in 25 years have had some form of surgeries ,
I'd imagine it's down to lack of interest and needs for any kind of special trans medical care treatment

A lot of people have gone private or have done gofundme fundraisers for surgery so saying less than 100 people have had surgery isnt quite true. Less than 100 have had surgery publicly funded. Therefore your imagined reason of "lack of interest" doesnt hold true

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

According to me anyone ,

ehhh No .

It's a government fund for gender reassignment related surgeries ,

Ehh yes according to you, because according to you everyone is treated the same in the Irish public health system, which is why I said that if you’re eligible for it, any treatments you would require are funded by the Irish public health system. If services which are not available here are available in other countries, then you’ll be able to avail of those services abroad and have the cost of just the treatments, funded by the HSE, provided your case meets the qualifying criteria. It doesn’t just stop at €30k either, there’s no set-aside amount for the cost of treatments for any individual, but what often happens is that they have to fund all other costs themselves, transport, accommodation, etc, often including appropriate aftercare, all of which in itself can add up to be pretty costly if the individual is forced to go abroad for treatment -

Fionn says including transport, flights, missed work, consultations and procedures, he is about €15,000 in debt. "It is something I think about every day, it stresses me out."

Fionn still has not been to Loughlinstown, as he was one of the people whose referral was lost.

"My referral could only be backdated to July 2019 as they couldn't find my initial referral."

He has seen Dr Ahern, who is able to prescribe him testosterone. However, Fionn still needs more procedures, which he can't be referred for unless he is seen by the National Gender Service. He says he doesn't like fundraising and asking other people for money.

"All I want to do is be able to go into a hospital in Ireland for healthcare, and be able to go home afterwards. I don't want to have to spend all this money, I didn't ask for this."

Fionn says he can't understand why the community gets so much hatred considering the struggle they go through.

Special Report: Failure to publish report means long delays to access transgender services

Gatling wrote: »

Exactly appropriate healthcare for everyone .

Not just lobby groups wants or demands

How else would you expect changes to be made to current standards which are inappropriate and inadequate if NOT for lobby groups demanding change for the people they claim to represent? Of the handful of people who are transgender that I know and those whom I have met over the course of my life, most of them had never heard of TENI for example, and those that had heard of them, had very negative opinions of them. Not much has changed in 20 years on that front, which is why more and more individuals are advocating for themselves, individuals such as Noah Halpin and Deanie Cullen to name but just two of them, among many, many more, who are all saying the same thing -

After enduring a seven-year wait for hormone treatment, Deanie suffered an “awful experience” attending St Columcille’s Hospital in Loughlinstown, Dublin.

As a result, he opted to take matters into his own hands and access the treatment privately before travelling to Poland for top surgery earlier this year.

Detailing the trouble he encountered while trying to transition through the Irish healthcare system, the teen told the Irish Sun: “I went through Loughlinstown Hospital and that was just an awful, awful experience.

“I was waiting for about seven years to be seen. I went there twice for appointments and both times I came out crying.

“On the second appointment, which was in January 2019, they started to take my blood as I was due to start testosterone.

"But another doctor came in and said it was a mistaken appointment and that I wasn’t starting hormones treatment. That was just the final straw.

“My fight to obtain hormone treatment was so difficult, exhausting, and infuriating that in the end, I had to give up on the HSE and go privately.”


Transgender teen lashes out at HSE for ‘lack of medical support’ after being forced abroad for ‘life-changing’ op


Waiting lists however aren’t specific to individuals requiring treatments to alleviate gender dysphoria, they’re more of a feature of the public healthcare system, than a bug, but I agree with the rest of what Cullen and Halpin are saying that they shouldn’t be forced to go abroad for treatments which should be available here as part of the public healthcare system. I don’t expect there to be much movement on that front considering that a report which is still waiting to be published, one of the recommendations was the appointment of a new Consultant Psychiatrist in Child and Adolescent Psychiatry post, which would go some way towards the goals you spoke of earlier too in relation to the special needs of children and adults in terms of their healthcare. Still hasn’t happened yet -


Q:To ask the Minister for Health when he will honour the Programme for Government commitments to create and implement a general health policy for trans persons based on a best practice model for care in line with the World Professional Association of Transgender Healthcare and deliver a framework for the development of national gender clinics and multidisciplinary teams for children and adults.

A: The HSE recently submitted the final report of the steering committee on the development of HSE transgender identity services to my colleague, the Minister for Health. The Minister has asked the HSE to publish the report immediately.

The report contains seven recommendations, all pertaining to the HSE and indicates that most of the recommendations are already in progress. In particular, it recommends that the new Consultant Psychiatrist in Child and Adolescent Psychiatry post will develop transgender identity services for those aged under 18, and move away from the current system of psychological support provided by Tavistock Clinic. The Minister for Health has sought an update from the HSE on the implementation of the recommendations.

The Minister for Health and I are committed to the development by the HSE of a well-governed and patient-centred health care service for adults and children in the transgender community, in line with the Programme for Government. We will support the HSE in ensuring that people wishing to transition their gender have timely access to treatment that accords with international best practice.


Kildare Street

Gatling

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

A lot of people have gone private or have done gofundme fundraisers for surgery so saying less than 100 people have had surgery isnt quite true.

Can't prove how many have had some form of surgeries then no ,

Gofund me that's a laugh

Gatling

So there is waiting lists .

Like every other medical services in this country there is long waiting lists , maybe they need to look at the causes and see if everyone genuinely needs be seen or can others be diverted else where if they are unsure of what they are or aren't,

But the government is already providing funding for surgeries for the last 25 years ,
You might not get the funding to fly to multiple countries for multiple jobs ,but they can't be expected to fund everything ,
Even people who get funded for overseas treatments don't get everything covered ,so why should anyone else

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

So there is waiting lists .

Like every other medical services in this country there is long waiting lists , maybe they need to look at the causes and see if everyone genuinely needs be seen or can others be diverted else where if they are unsure of what they are or aren't,

That’s a good suggestion, but how do you propose it’s implemented when people are waiting an average of three years to be seen in the first place, never mind deciding on an appropriate course of action for them in their circumstances? That’s why people are deciding to go private, because they aren’t prepared to be left waiting indefinitely on waiting lists just to be seen.

Gatling wrote: »

But the government is already providing funding for surgeries for the last 25 years ,
You might not get the funding to fly to multiple countries for multiple jobs ,but they can't be expected to fund everything ,
Even people who get funded for overseas treatments don't get everything covered ,so why should anyone else

What use is providing funding if one is put on a waiting list for years in order to access said funding for services provided in other countries? It’s not even a question of providing funding for procedures which are only available in other countries, it’s a question of providing those services here in Ireland under the public healthcare system where the HSE says they don’t provide those services because there aren’t sufficient numbers to justify the cost of providing the services nationally, so everyone who is waiting to be seen is put on a waiting list for one clinic as opposed to funding a multi-disciplinary national service under the auspices and authority of the HSE as opposed to services being funded either privately or by charity organisations.

Nobody is asking for everything to be covered, they’re pointing out that the services need to be provided for here so that people don’t have to incur the additional costs of travelling abroad for treatments, ancillary costs which they often aren’t in a position to be able to afford, so even if the cost of the treatment is provided for, it’s useless unless people can afford to avail of it!