Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s a good suggestion, but how do you propose it’s implemented when people are waiting an average of three years to be seen in the first place, n


What use is providing funding if one is put on a waiting list for years in order to access said funding for services provided in other countries?

If there is no huge demand they are not going to run multiple services for a relatively small cohort , like how do you want to to work ,
Full gender reassignment surgery in 6 months of declaring your trans ,no waiting lists ever for them ,
Meanwhile other people waiting 10 + years to see a specialist or for surgeries because they aren't trans ,
There is no magic cure all solutions we have limited resources ,our medical services are usually operating at capacity and breaking point most of the time ,

Were we told there was thousands if not tens to thousands of trans people queing up for gender certs and surgeries ,
Less than a handful have gotten gender certs and even less have had any kind of surgeries over the past 25 years ,
It was all a con job that gave a tiny cohort power to try to dictate to the medical field , education , social media ,law enforcement about how to treat the special people above everyone else .

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

If there is no huge demand they are not going to run multiple services for a relatively small cohort , like how do you want to to work ,
Full gender reassignment surgery in 6 months of declaring your trans ,no waiting lists ever for them ,
Meanwhile other people waiting 10 + years to see a specialist or for surgeries because they aren't trans ,
There is no magic cure all solutions we have limited resources ,our medical services are usually operating at capacity and breaking point most of the time ,

Nobody is arguing for magic cure-all solutions or anything else, I’m certainly not anyway. How I expect it to work is the provision of a national healthcare system means just that - the provision of healthcare services nationally, and not just centralised in one clinic with an enormous waiting list of years just to be seen after a referral from their GP. The HSE know the demand for transgender healthcare services is growing, and they sat on their hands and have done nothing to address the issues even though they were aware when they signed the contract with the Tavistock that it would end in 2021 in any case. Clearly nobody should have to be waiting 10 years for any kind of treatment in the public healthcare system. At that stage it should be blatantly obvious that the system is just not fit for purpose!

Gatling wrote: »

Were we told there was thousands if not tens to thousands of trans people queing up for gender certs and surgeries ,
Less than a handful have gotten gender certs and even less have had any kind of surgeries over the past 25 years ,
It was all a con job that gave a tiny cohort power to try to dictate to the medical field , education , social media ,law enforcement about how to treat the special people above everyone else .

I dunno who told you that, maybe ‘twas some hack blowing smoke up your tailpipe before gript was ever on the scene, but it’s not like anything I was ever told, nor like anything I learned from talking to people about the issues involved. There was no con job involved anyway for a start, it’s surely obvious to you that different people wanted different things? For example Lydia Foy had completed sex reassignment surgery (as it was known at the time) before they ever began their campaign for legal recognition in Irish law. Other people who are transgender and don’t experience gender dysphoria have no interest in any kind of medical or surgical interventions, social transition is satisfactory for them, whereas other people again aren’t interested in just social transition, but rather they want legal recognition of their gender identity.

Nobody is trying to con anyone in suggesting that all people be treated equally. Nobody is looking for special treatment above anyone or everyone else. They’re looking to be treated exactly the same as everyone else without discrimination as to their gender identity. Trying to insinuate there’s some sort of a “power grab” going on really is the stuff of paranoid delusory nonsense. It’s exactly the sort of fantastical propaganda I’d expect to read in rags like gript, or see on social media echo chambers. It’s really anything but representative of reality.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Nobody is arguing for magic cure-all solutions or anything else,


I dunno who told you that, maybe ‘twas some hack blowing smoke up your tailpipe before gript was ever on the scene, but it’s not

Trying to insinuate there’s some sort of a “power grab” going on really is the stuff of paranoid delusory nonsense. It’s exactly the sort of fantastical propaganda I’d expect to read in rags like gript,

Lol blame the gript seems people are running out of ideas ,
Blowing smoke up tail pipes there's a kink for everything these days .
Not for me though .....

We Have waiting lists for every part of the health service some 10 + year's , some kids are adults by the time they get treatments ,
Welcome to Ireland , and if you cant afford to pay privately your only option is to wait like everyone else .

Nobody is special and above waiting no matter what you or they self identify as ,
There also free to leave and go elsewhere to wait on waiting lists .
Like everyone else.

Get a gript !

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Lol blame the gript seems people are running out of ideas ,
Blowing smoke up tail pipes there's a kink for everything these days .
Not for me though .....

We Have waiting lists for every part of the health service some 10 + year's , some kids are adults by the time they get treatments ,
Welcome to Ireland , and if you cant afford to pay privately your only option is to wait like everyone else .

Nobody is special and above waiting no matter what you or they self identify as ,
There also free to leave and go elsewhere to wait on waiting lists .
Like everyone else.

Get a gript !

I don’t just blame the gript, there were plenty of people making coin off indulging people’s paranoia before (as I said), gript was ever on the scene. Gript are just the latest crowd to seize on an opportunity to generate income for themselves by feeding people’s paranoia.

I’ve already agreed too that nobody is any more special than anyone else, I made it clear on a number of occasions now that waiting lists are an unfortunate reality for anyone who has to endure the public healthcare system because they cannot afford to pay for their healthcare privately.

Making that point however, does not negate the fact that people are entitled to campaign for improvements in the public healthcare system as it relates to their specific needs which are currently either not being provided in this country, or are inaccessible to them for financial reasons or any other reason. Neither you nor anyone else is being forced to agree with them, and there are services provided in the public healthcare system which I don’t support, but trying to argue against the necessity for these provisions or arguing that other services are more worthy of funding isn’t just spiteful, it’s ignorant, pointless, discriminatory and simply put - is trying to make out it’s your hobby horse is more deserving of special consideration than everyone else in society.

It reminds me of an occasion during the campaign to repeal the 8th amendment when a woman whose child had multiple sclerosis and was confined to a wheelchair commented “they’re able to find money for abortions, but they can’t fund services for him”, referring to her child. I got her point, but chose to bite my tongue rather than say anything because I could understand her frustration, and I wasn’t going to be the kind of cnut that would point out to her in those circumstances that the provision of one service had nothing to do with the other. Both services are significantly underfunded and inadequately provided for in terms of a national public healthcare system.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don’t just blame the gript, there were plenty of people making coin off indulging people’s paranoia before (as I said), gript was ever on the scene. Gript are just the latest

Because they posted a story on the shambles that's tavistock ,at least the HSE saw sense and ended their Contract here early Imagine that wonder why ?

Seems they touched a nerve with a certain cohort ,
Blaming paronia really that's a utterly stupid thing to suggest

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Because they posted a story on the shambles that's tavistock ,at least the HSE saw sense and ended their Contract here early Imagine that wonder why ?

Seems they touched a nerve with a certain cohort ,
Blaming paronia really that's a utterly stupid thing to suggest

There weren’t any nerves touched with any cohorts, it simply stands to reason that if the service provided by the Tavistock is below standard (and there’s no denying that it is, due to the failure of management to provide leadership), then the HSE would maintain and expand upon the services which are currently provided in Crumlin for assessing the needs of children who present with gender dysphoria.

Blaming paranoia would absolutely be an utterly stupid thing to suggest were it not for the fact that you imagine it’s all some sort of a con job perpetuated by a small cohort and woke parents, and the hacks behind gript are somehow the purveyors of truth. Come on now, what else would you call it if people relied on tabloids to inform themselves about the world?

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There weren’t any nerves touched with any cohorts,


and the hacks behind gript are somehow the purveyors of truth. Come on now, what else would you call it if people relied on tabloids to inform themselves about the world?

Funny thing I previously posted a link from a lesbian and that was shouted down as being anti trans propaganda,

Talking about wanting it every which way while playing the persocution card ,
Tabloids .
MSM have been useless for years but you won't find much in there bar woke opinion pieces

Definitely touched a nerve the gript ,the gript because they posted a story about the the **** hole tavistock ,
It's obvious

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Funny thing I previously posted a link from a lesbian and that was shouted down as being anti trans propaganda,

Talking about wanting it every which way while playing the persocution card ,
Tabloids .
MSM have been useless for years but you won't find much in there bar woke opinion pieces

Definitely touched a nerve the gript ,the gript because they posted a story about the the **** hole tavistock ,
It's obvious

Being a lesbian doesn’t exclude the possibility that someone could be biased or prejudiced against people who are transgender? I’ve no doubt there are many lesbians who have issues with people who are transgender, and there are probably many more lesbians who pretty much don’t care either way because they don’t think about people who are transgender all that much, they’re a tiny minority of people who most people will never have any dealings with whatsoever. In any case I can’t remember the link you’re talking about, and if I saw it, I would remember if I thought anything of it other than just being the usual shyte.

You didn’t touch any nerve with Gript, not least because of any claims they made about the Tavistock. I pointed out to you at the time that I didn’t want to give Gript the clickbait revenue so I sourced the document for myself, as I knew it was in the public domain, whereas Gript would like to give it’s readers the impression that they had undergone credible investigative journalism in order to secure the report that the Tavistock wouldn’t want Gript readers to see. Having read the report as a whole myself though, and taking a number of factors into consideration, putting things in context and proper perspective and so on, the evidence doesn’t support your assertion that the Tavistock is a shìthole. The evidence suggests it has been badly managed and underfunded and there’s no leadership provided by management at the time who spent more time at each other’s throats in the tabloids arguing over politics, than actually providing support and leadership for the staff in the clinics.

Your 10 minute watch of David Bell (no relation to Kiera) was nothing new either tbh, though I can understand how you might have thought it was worth a watch - because his opinions agree with yours. Naturally in those circumstances you’ll lend anyone more credit than they deserve when their opinions agree with yours. That’s what Gript relies upon to generate revenue - keep churning out crap which validates your opinions, and you’ll keep going back for more.

Annasopra

Gatling wrote: »

If there is no huge demand they are not going to run multiple services for a relatively small cohort , like how do you want to to work ,
Full gender reassignment surgery in 6 months of declaring your trans ,no waiting lists ever for them ,
Meanwhile other people waiting 10 + years to see a specialist or for surgeries because they aren't trans ,
There is no magic cure all solutions we have limited resources ,our medical services are usually operating at capacity and breaking point most of the time ,

Were we told there was thousands if not tens to thousands of trans people queing up for gender certs and surgeries ,
Less than a handful have gotten gender certs and even less have had any kind of surgeries over the past 25 years ,
It was all a con job that gave a tiny cohort power to try to dictate to the medical field , education , social media ,law enforcement about how to treat the special people above everyone else .

Pretty sure that noone said that tens of thousands of people were queueing up for surgery and certs? Have you a link to this claim?

This thread just gets more and more bizarre. We are now getting manfucatured outrage that there isnt enough trans people having surgery and getting GR certs. You would think all the people who give out about all things trans would be happy at low numbers but no apparently this is another fault. Really really really bizarre to now be giving out that not enough people had surgery or got gender recognition certs.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Being a lesbian doesn’t exclude the possibility that someone could be biased or prejudiced against people who are transgender?

You didn’t touch any nerve with Gript, not least because of any claims they made about the Tavistock. I pointed out to you at the time that I didn’t want to give Gript the clickbait revenue so I sourced the document for myself, as I knew it was in the public domain, whereas Gript

your assertion that the Tavistock is a shìthole. The evidence suggests it has been badly managed and underfunded and there’s no leadership provided by management at

You claimed paranoia earlier ,

It's obvious your paranoia when it comes to trans ,
Lesbian, straight ,Women don't agree with your opinions I believe the majority don't believe in this identity ideology ,
The same with the gript it's been mentioned more in your last few posts than across this whole thread ,

And yes tavistock is a ****hole a science experiment going wrong ,and it was essentially proven

Gatling

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

This thread just gets more and more bizarre.

It's not bizarre ,

It's always been a case of a few people running around in circles ,
And when all else fails spam the report button

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Pretty sure that noone said that tens of thousands of people were queueing up for surgery and certs? Have you a link to this claim?

This thread just gets more and more bizarre. We are now getting manfucatured outrage that there isnt enough trans people having surgery and getting GR certs. You would think all the people who give out about all things trans would be happy at low numbers but no apparently this is another fault. Really really really bizarre to now be giving out that not enough people had surgery or got gender recognition certs.

It sure does. Like the post in which somebody implied that infertile women are no different from biological males.

Gatling

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

It sure does. Like the post in which somebody implied that infertile women are no different from biological males.

There was another one that I thought was worse ,for different reasons

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

You claimed paranoia earlier ,

In relation to your claims about cohorts and MSM and all the rest of it, yes, I’d suggest anyone with those sorts of nonsense notions was being paranoid in thinking anyone is a threat to them for whatever reason.

Gatling wrote: »

It's obvious your paranoia when it comes to trans ,
Lesbian, straight ,Women don't agree with your opinions I believe the majority don't believe in this identity ideology

The same with the gript it's been mentioned more in your last few posts than across this whole thread ,

Are you having a laugh now or are you actually being serious? You’re the person is listing off labels there like they’re literally going out of fashion, and you’ve done it throughout the thread on numerous occasions like claiming earlier that it was ‘gay men trying to control women’, and that’s why I wondered what has either being gay or lesbian for that matter got to do with anything? You pointed out that you posted the opinion of a lesbian... as if being a lesbian would lend weight to her opinion on people who are transgender? Why would it, unless you were a disciple of identity politics yourself? I’ve seen it done throughout the thread as if Debbie Hayton’s opinion should carry more weight when they’re arguing that people who are transgender should settle for being discriminated against. Why? Why is Debbie Hayton’s opinion more important than anyone else’s?

As for gript, you keep using it expecting ANYONE to regard it as a credible source? Why? I’m familiar with their nonsense, they’re a pig ignorant publication I wouldn’t wipe my arse with, any more than I’d consider the Daily Mail worth entertaining. Using gript as a source you’re basically saying to people you think they’re stupid.

Gatling wrote: »

And yes tavistock is a ****hole a science experiment going wrong ,and it was essentially proven

No, no it wasn’t. You used gript as a source to claim the Board of Directors of the Tavistock had been disbanded as a result of the services they were providing at the clinic, but that wasn’t the case, was it? The problem was the services they were providing weren’t up to standard, proper records weren’t being kept, and the waiting lists had increased significantly during the tenure of the board of management as it was at the time, which is why the board of management were disbanded, not because of any implications of a failed science experiment, but simply because of the numerous failures by management to provide leadership within the organisation. Basically they couldn’t organise a piss-up in a brewery.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

As for gript, you keep using it
No, no it wasn’t. You used gript as a source to claim the Board of Directors of the Tavistock had been disbanded as a result

The problem was the services they were providing weren’t up to standard,

Basically they couldn’t organise a piss-up in a brewery.

So I'm right a ****hole .

More about the gript yet the only one going on about the gript is you . multiple times a post , nobody else only you.

Gatling

There has been numerous reports about whats been happening at tavistock ,it's why they lost their legal case in the UK courts over puberty blockers ,
Absolutely delusional for anyone to believe it's nothing but a science experiment under the guise of self identifying politics ,
Children have been harmed because of their actions , but sure make excuse after excuse ,but ,but ,
And it's not the gripts fault .

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

So I'm right a ****hole .

More about the gript yet the only one going on about the gript is you . multiple times a post , nobody else only you.

I’m just after telling you you’re wrong, how did you get from that that you were right?

You’re wrong, because the evidence doesn’t support your assertions. Now granted I have no issue with you being of the opinion at least that it’s a shìthole, but when you try to pass off your opinion as fact, that’s where the issue is, because the evidence from the report just doesn’t support your opinion. There was plenty of evidence given to support the fact that many of the service users and their families had high praise for the staff. The service users and their families wouldn’t normally have interacted with management who were operating in their own orbit distancing themselves from staff and clinicians rather than doing what they were supposed to be doing which was managing the service.

As for it being a failed science experiment, surely you must know that medicine isn’t just about science? One of the criticisms of the report is that there didn’t appear to be due consideration given to the cultural and ethnic backgrounds of the patients. They’re characteristics which have nothing to do with science, but they are of the utmost importance in regards to providing patients with the best possible care and understanding in order to meet their needs.

It’s something that is becoming of greater importance in psychology and psychiatry than it was regarded in medicine in previous times - the idea being a more holistic patient-centred approach using evidence-based best practice in modern medicine than just focusing on biology and science which provide little understanding of how to improve patient outcomes.

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

There has been numerous reports about whats been happening at tavistock ,it's why they lost their legal case in the UK courts over puberty blockers ,
Absolutely delusional for anyone to believe it's nothing but a science experiment under the guise of self identifying politics ,
Children have been harmed because of their actions , but sure make excuse after excuse ,but ,but ,
And it's not the gripts fault .

The case you’re referring to wasn’t the Tavistocks case to lose. The judgement was concerned with whether or not children under the age of 16 had the capacity to give informed consent to ANY medical treatment, not just puberty blockers. Personally I think it’s no harm that every case is reviewed by the courts and the courts make the decision as to whether or not a particular treatment should be permitted, although I do envision circumstances where the child and their parents will disagree with the decision of the courts and simply order hormones over the Internet, bypassing the NHS completely.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

how did you get from that that you were right?

You’re wrong, because the evidence doesn’t support your assertions. Now granted I have no issue with you being of the opinion at least that it’s a shìthole,

But it's true and it's not a recent thing either ,it's a fact it's a ****hole , that should be completely defunded and the funds being made available to child psychology supports to help fix some of the damage they have caused over the last number of years ,
At least the HSE saw sense to end their contact here early and won't be renewing it ,
Common sense at last

It's like listening to a klopp interview on sky sports it's the weather ,it's the media ,it's the virus ,it's the lack of fans,
Excuse after excuse after excuse .

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

But it's true and it's not a recent thing either ,it's a fact it's a ****hole , that should be completely defunded and the funds being made available to child psychology supports to help fix some of the damage they have caused over the last number of years ,
At least the HSE saw sense to end their contact here early and won't be renewing it ,
Common sense at last

It's like listening to a klopp interview on sky sports it's the weather ,it's the media ,it's the virus ,it's the lack of fans,
Excuse after excuse after excuse .

The first time you said that, I was mildly amused by the irony. Now I realise you’re actually serious. The HSE NEVER see sense, and had it not been for travel restrictions imposed by lockdowns in both the UK and Ireland meaning it was unsafe for anyone to travel between the two countries, the HSE would never have sought to end their contract early and would quite likely have renewed the contract with the Tavistock. The lockdown restrictions effectively forced the HSE’s hand to end their relationship with the Tavistock. It has nothing to do with the actual treatment being provided at the Tavistock, and the HSE even went so far as to try and suppress the concerns of the country’s foremost endocrinologist on the issue -

Doctors in row with HSE over claims children's transgender care is 'unsafe'

You’re kidding yourself if you imagine the HSE ever sees sense.

As for funding for child psychology supports, that’s one of the reasons the Tavistock were criticised, because they were supposed to be providing psychological supports and care for children with gender dysphoria, and the fact is that they weren’t meeting targets and patients were in the system too long before they were seen for even their first appointment, never mind their second, while other patients had been seen over 100 times.

The whole thing is mired in politics and you’ll find it pretty difficult to separate the political out from medical care, simply because they are so fundamentally intertwined in terms of policies and legal requirements and responsibility for the administration of said policies in accordance with their legal responsibilities and requirements, especially in the domain of public healthcare provision.



EDIT: Just to correct something I said earlier. It appears the report I referred to earlier has finally been published -

Final Report of the Steering Committee on the Development of HSE Transgender Identity Services

The recommendations include:

- Move from the current system of psychological support provided by Tavistock Clinic (in London) for those under the age of 18 to ensure services are provided and delivered by the Irish health service.

- Develop a full multidisciplinary team within mental health services to support the delivery of the National Gender Service (NGS), led by the new CAMHS Consultant Psychiatrist.

- Develop terms of reference of a Clinical Governance Committee for the NGS (to include representation from adult and paediatric services, as well as service users) that will operate across all services delivering transgender care to ensure clear clinical and corporate governance structures are in place.

- Develop a Service User Forum for the NGS, with advice from the HSE Head of Mental Health Engagement & Recovery in relation to service user involvement and representation.

- Consider revisiting the current Model of Care, as developed by Dr Philip Crowley (National Director of the HSE Quality Improvement Division) under the auspices of new guidelines published by the Department of Health, noting that additional resources are now available to deliver more comprehensive programme of care.

- Continue to rollout Gender Identity Skills Training (GIST) nationally to all relevant staff members across the continuum of care, through primary care, secondary care and tertiary care, including Jigsaw and Counselling in Primary Care (CIPC) staff providing services at a local level.

- Consider the establishment of academic partnerships to provide longitudinal evaluation of the service as it develops, and appropriate key performance indicator (KPIs) for ongoing monitoring of the service, to best ensure service provision develops along with need.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The first time you said that, I was mildly amused by the irony. Now I realise you’re actually serious.

You’re kidding yourself if you imagine the HSE ever sees sense.

As for funding for child psychology supports, that’s one of the reasons the Tavistock were criticised, because they were supposed to be providing psychological supports and care for children with gender dysphoria, and the fact is that they weren’t meeting


The recommendations include:

- Move from the current system of psychological support provided by Tavistock Clinic (in London) for those under the age of 18 to ensure services are provided and delivered by the Irish health service.

-

Supposed to provide psychological services but instead decided to take the route of puberty blockers and other god only knows medicines till a a young person took a court case that ended that , despite multiple claims being made against them they carried on with their own quackery

So wait it's all covids fault the HSE terminated their Contract early and won't be renewing it .
It's another excuse but at least ,

Were in to comedy gold now

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Supposed to provide psychological services but instead decided to take the route of puberty blockers and other god only knows medicines till a a young person took a court case that ended that , despite multiple claims being made against them they carried on with their own quackery

And the court case didn’t put an end to any quackery as you put it, it only means that now informed medical consent becomes yet another box ticking exercise.

Gatling wrote: »

So wait it's all covids fault the HSE terminated their Contract early and won't be renewing it .
It's another excuse but at least ,

Were in to comedy gold now

Have to hand it to you Gatling your flair for the dramatic is only surpassed by your ability to overlook evidence which doesn’t jig with your preconceived notions. As I explained in my earlier post, the HSE carried on their contract with the Tavistock in spite of the concerns raised by the endocrinologist with responsibility for transgender healthcare in Ireland, Professor Donal O Shea, back as far as 2018, but their concerns were dismissed by the HSE, likely why they chose not to participate in the Steering Committee along with Dr. Paul Moran -


 Professor Dónal O’Shea, Consultant Endocrinologist* – SCH (delegated by Dr Risteard Ó Laoide);
 Dr Paul Moran, Consultant Psychiatrist** – St John of God Community Services;


* Declined to participate.
** Did not respond to invitation to participate.

The lockdown and travel restrictions in early 2020 meant that the specialists from the Tavistock could not travel to Ireland, and children from Ireland could not travel to Tavistock. Given the circumstances, it’s likely that neither party were able to fulfil the terms of the contract agreement between them. Nothing to do with the court decision in the UK which was months later.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And the court case didn’t put an end to any quackery as you put it, it only means that now informed medical consent becomes yet another box ticking exercise.



The lockdown and travel restrictions in early 2020 meant that the specialists from the Tavistock could not travel to Ireland, and children from Ireland could not travel to Tavistock. Given the circumstances, it’s likely that neither party were able to fulfil the terms of the contract agreement between

Box ticking considering they couldn't get the basics right I doubt it will be nothing but a tick excercise ,
Pumping kids aged 10 with puberty blockers isn't quackery per say "it's down right child abuse" and not only dangerous Which will lead to long term and permanent damage to Childrens bodies in under there care ,
Informed consent how do Children aged 4 and up give informed consent to something they can't even quantify let alone understand what's going to happen to them because some quack decided they needed puberty blockers .

Ah sure let's Blame covid restrictions , bull**** there's tens of thousands of people travelling to and from the UK on a weekly basis ,
Medical staff have a lot more freedom to travel than the rest of us being essential workers ,
We've had medical personnel travel all over the world at this point and will keep doing so .

Not sure why anyone would even attempt to use covid restrictions as the reason why the HSE terminated their Contract with tavistock early should be renamed abusivstock

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Box ticking considering they couldn't get the basics right I doubt it will be nothing but a tick excercise ,

Of course it will, as the courts will likely favour the opinions of the medical professionals and social care workers over parents who disagree with their assessments in deciding what is in any individual child’s best interests.

Gatling wrote: »

Pumping kids aged 10 with puberty blockers isn't quackery per say "it's down right child abuse" and not only dangerous Which will lead to long term and permanent damage to Childrens bodies in under there care ,

Well that’s certainly one way of looking at it.

Gatling wrote: »

Informed consent how do Children aged 4 and up give informed consent to something they can't even quantify let alone understand what's going to happen to them because some quack decided they needed puberty blockers .

Has there been any suggestion of prescribing puberty blockers for four years olds in either the UK or Ireland? If you could at least present some evidence for your opinions I’d be extremely interested in reading it, provided of course any evidence isn’t sourced from the publication whose name shall not be identified.

Not to mention the fact that the neither the Tavistock nor Portman institutes administer puberty blockers to patients in any case. Perhaps if you’d read the report you’re so keen on, you’d know this. From the actual report itself -


The Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust provide outpatient psychosocial services only, and GIDS provides outpatient services for gender dysphoria. Any medical treatment is provided by other acute healthcare providers and the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust refer into these as required. Medical treatment involves the prescribing of medicines that pause the physical changes of puberty and hormones that alter characteristics of gender. This medical treatment is provided by the endocrinology departments at University College Hospital London and Leeds General Infirmary. The CQC inspected and published reports on these services at the same time as the inspection and publication of GIDS.

Gatling wrote: »

Ah sure let's Blame covid restrictions , bull**** there's tens of thousands of people travelling to and from the UK on a weekly basis ,
Medical staff have a lot more freedom to travel than the rest of us being essential workers ,
We've had medical personnel travel all over the world at this point and will keep doing so .

Not sure why anyone would even attempt to use covid restrictions as the reason why the HSE terminated their Contract with tavistock early should be renamed abusivstock

You’re still not sure after it was already explained to you? I’d suggest you read the full report yourself then because frankly I’m rather tired of having to spoonfeed you the information. The fact that there are other people doing other things is irrelevant to the point that I made in which I referred specifically to the arrangements made between the HSE and Tavistock. Curiously though you’ll overlook the fact that nobody wants to put children’s safety and well-being at risk when it suits your purposes to call bullshìt on the reasons for either party’s inability to fulfil the arrangements made between them, in favour of your belief that the HSE actually saw sense, and by ‘seeing sense’ I’m guessing you mean they came to the same conclusion as you have done (in spite of all evidence to the contrary of course).

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Of course it will, as the courts will likely favour the opinions of the medical professionals and social care workers


You’re still not sure after it was already explained to you?

Ah yes courts favouring medical professionals ,
But not the infamous clinic seems Childrens health were put before they quacks experiments with gender identity.

Still haven't seen any report saying the HSE terminated It's contract early and won't be renewing with that clinic "likely due to covid travel restrictions " and not being able to fulfill contract obligations again due to covid travel restrictions .

Nothing , anywhere ,

Must have been some concerns that could have led to possible further legal actions ?
Can't be ruled out , definitely more to the story than covid travel restrictions seeing the covid travel restrictions aren't effecting other medical services

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Ah yes courts favouring medical professionals ,
But not the infamous clinic seems Childrens health were put before they quacks experiments with gender identity.

Yes, Courts do tend to favour the opinions of medical professionals and social care services professionals over the opinions of the children’s parents in determining the best interests of the children in most cases where decisions are made with regards to their medical care. That’s why when cases will come before the Courts to be reviewed, each case will be determined on its own merits and it’s likely the opinions of the professionals will hold sway over the opinions of the children’s parents if they are not in agreement with the treatment recommended for their child or children. The Courts didn’t put children’s health before quacks experiments if that’s how you choose to frame it, they simply appointed themselves as the ultimate authority on the matter. Ahh look I could go into a long-winded explainer but in practical terms it simply comes down to this -


In conclusion: Doctors can continue to prescribe puberty blocking treatment if the patient is Gillick competent. The court found that the patient must understand not only the consequences of puberty blockers, but also the consequences of later, optional treatment which they may choose not to have when the time comes.


Bell v Tavistock: a quick explainer

Gatling wrote: »

Still haven't seen any report saying the HSE terminated It's contract early and won't be renewing with that clinic "likely due to covid travel restrictions " and not being able to fulfill contract obligations again due to covid travel restrictions .

Nothing , anywhere ,

Must have been some concerns that could have led to possible further legal actions ?
Can't be ruled out , definitely more to the story than covid travel restrictions seeing the covid travel restrictions aren't effecting other medical services

The contract was due to end in 2021 anyway. If the HSE had wanted to end the contract having seen sense as you put it, they would have done so back in 2018 when concerns were raised prior even to the Steering Committee being convened on the future of transgender healthcare in Ireland. Instead they continued with the contract up until March 2020 when it was simply no longer feasible for the arrangements that had been made between the HSE and the Tavistock to continue. What further legal actions could there possibly have been in your view? A judicial inquiry into practices at Tavistock has no bearing on the services provided to the HSE, or on the services provided by the HSE!

You’re basically saying “no, I reject all the evidence, must have been some other reason, can’t rule anything out.” You can though, especially the idea of the HSE seeing sense, especially when if they were to agree with you as you’re suggesting (they don’t btw, but fcuk it), they would have seen it long before March of 2020 when they ended the contract, and certainly they didn’t have a crystal ball that they could foretell the future conclusions of a judicial review which has no bearing whatsoever on the services provided to the HSE by Tavistock!

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Yes, Courts do tend to favour the opinions of medical professionals and social care services professionals





The contract was due to end in 2021 anyway. If the HSE had wanted to end the contract

Yes they do favour medical professionals in this case to prevent further abuse of the system,

So the termination of the contract by the HSE had nothing whatsoever to do with not being able to fulfill contractual obligations due to covid travel restrictions .

Thought so ...

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Yes they do favour medical professionals in this case to prevent further abuse of the system,

No... that’s not why the courts favour the opinions of medical professionals over the children’s parents in deciding what is in the children’s best interests in terms of their medical care. It’s because the courts place higher value in the opinions of medical professionals than the children’s parents when it comes to making medical decisions in the best interests of the children.

Gatling wrote: »

So the termination of the contract by the HSE had nothing whatsoever to do with not being able to fulfill contractual obligations due to covid travel restrictions .

Thought so ...

That’s... not what I said? In fact I said the complete opposite. You’re free to think whatever you like at this stage in spite of all evidence to the contrary, though if you can think of any reason why there would be any legal repercussions for the HSE as a consequence of a decision which is of absolutely no relevance to them, I’d like to hear it. Otherwise it’s perfectly reasonable to conclude that given the restrictions were introduced around March and the HSE ended the contract then, the reason they ended it was because it just wasn’t feasible to continue to send children to the UK, nor for clinicians to travel to Ireland given the risks involved when the Tavistock had introduced measures to provide support remotely where possible (it’s in the report).

Gatling

Yes you did





[/QUOTE]=One eyed Jack;116203485[/quote]





That’s... not what I said? In fact I said the complete opposite. You’re free to think whatever you like at this stage,

Otherwise it’s perfectly reasonable to conclude that given the restrictions were introduced around March and the HSE ended the contract then, the reason they ended it was because it just wasn’t feasible to continue to send children to the UK, nor for clinicians to travel to Ireland given the risks involved[/QUOTE]

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The lockdown and travel restrictions in early 2020 meant that the specialists from the Tavistock could not travel to Ireland, and children from Ireland could not travel to Tavistock. Given the circumstances, it’s likely that neither party were able to fulfil the terms of the contract agreement between them. Nothing to do with the court decision in the UK which was months later.

Gatling

I'm sure you deny that too ..