Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

jam_mac_jam

Target in the US has banned a recent book on rapid onset gender dysphoria. A Berkley professor Grace Lavery has called for the book to be burned. Without reading it.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/ie/blog/checkpoints/202011/burn-book

Also a critical review of the book. https://theorion.com/85233/opinion/abigail-shrier-and-the-dangers-of-making-psychological-assertions-from-limited-data/

Gruffalux

km991148 wrote: »

Doubt it. Not in my made up hospital it isn't.

Your intention is to trivialise the debate by implying made up and theoretical issues dominate the debate, while ignoring all the real examples given.
Here is a real life example - 90% of all sexual assaults in changing rooms reported in the UK occurred in Unisex spaces.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

This fact underlines the importance of single sex spaces in terms of safe guarding.

As anyone with a titter of wit knows transwomen have been using female changing rooms since always. These are the transwomen who wish to respectfully live their lives as the gender they feel expresses them best, and who have made efforts to embody that desire, and the women in the intimate spaces do not wish for any transwoman to be in danger by having to go into the male spaces. There are cubicles generally in these spaces which preserve everyone's modesty and life goes on.
But we are way past that now. Self ID requires nothing more than a simple declaration. Thus any bloke at all can walk into any female space and if challenged can say I am a woman. A completely male presenting person can insist they are a woman in all situations.

Anyone with a single brain cell knows this is wide open to abuse and disrespect. What do we do about that?

CtevenSrowder

km991148 wrote: »

Its nothing like abortion. That is entirely separate with all sorts of complexities (and very real examples of trauma suffered).

A persona of a hypothetical transgendered 50 year old who also happens to be a sexual predator was used to make some point about transgendered issues in Ireland.

I could throw in something like "Its like suicide, why do we have to wait for people with gender issues to kill themselves before we make changes in society.." it's never ending if we start playing that game..

But when real life scenarios are brought up they are likewise dismissed.

And if you threw out such a thing it would in my view be reasonable. The debate would then centre on what those changes should, and shouldn't, be.

In my view, the change should not be self-id, allowing males to compete against females in competitive sport, putting males in prison with females etc etc.

CtevenSrowder

km991148 wrote: »

Doubt it. Not in my made up hospital it isn't.

Doubt all you want. It would be viewed as such by a certain cohort.

Why should a trans-women have to identify herself as trans when she is in fact an actual women? One prominent poster on this thread invented the term trans-female before to try and skate around biology. This is the level of absurdity you have to deal with.

mohawk

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Target in the US has banned a recent book on rapid onset gender dysphoria. A Berkley professor Grace Lavery has called for the book to be burned. Without reading it.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/ie/blog/checkpoints/202011/burn-book

Also a critical review of the book. https://theorion.com/85233/opinion/abigail-shrier-and-the-dangers-of-making-psychological-assertions-from-limited-data/

I will hold my hands up and admit I would always be in the reluctant to ban books camp.

I have not read the book, I have heard of it. My understanding is that it focuses on the recent phenomenon of a dramatic increase in teenage girls identifying as transgender. Given that there is limited scientific research into this area I would not be surprised if the book wouldn’t be 100% accurate.

Having said all that why should this book be banned? The topic sounds reasonable so why calls for it to banned?

suicide_circus

The banning and burning of books eh?

jam_mac_jam

suicide_circus wrote: »

The banning and burning of books eh?

https://thepostmillennial.com/berkeley-professor-calls-for-book-burnings

Its going to really backfire as it will greatly increase sales.

Frankie Machine

There is an allegation being made that people are denying the rights of trans men and trans women. I don't believe that is so.

We all have brothers, sisters, nieces and nephews that we love unconditionally and would want everyone they meet to 'be nice to' them in such a situation. It's almost a survival instinct to do that.

But we also have an instinct to weigh up the messenger, when we evaluate the message. There is no getting away from that.

To that extent -

The ploy of warping language to denigrate women by the (deliberate ?) use of ugly terms such as 'chest feeder', or 'menstruator' is sinister.

Cancel culture is sinister.

The preponderance of males screaming 'TERF' at women who are not willing to give up rights that were so hard-won, is sinister.

So in part, 'Gender Identity in Modern Ireland' will revolve around whether or not we are convinced by those tactics, are willing to be constantly harangued and accused like that, or are willing to have the women (ie adult human females) we love and cherish denigrated like that.

I hope we do not cave in to such a vulgar campaign.

Chris_Heilong

Its all emperor's new clothes, the majority of people think the whole thing is daft but go along with it to either seem trendy or because they want to fit in with perceived public opinion.

Hector Savage

I am just wondering when the first male tennis player ranked around 1000 in ATP decides to transition and join the WTA .... will win about 30 grand slams...

Hector Savage

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Its all emperor's new clothes, the majority of people think the whole thing is daft but go along with it to either seem trendy or because they want to fit in with perceived public opinion.

Or not lose their jobs by expressing wrongthink ..

km991148

Gruffalux wrote: »

Your intention is to trivialise the debate by implying made up and theoretical issues dominate the debate, while ignoring all the real examples given.
Here is a real life example - 90% of all sexual assaults in changing rooms reported in the UK occurred in Unisex spaces.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

This fact underlines the importance of single sex spaces in terms of safe guarding.

As anyone with a titter of wit knows transwomen have been using female changing rooms since always. These are the transwomen who wish to respectfully live their lives as the gender they feel expresses them best, and who have made efforts to embody that desire, and the women in the intimate spaces do not wish for any transwoman to be in danger by having to go into the male spaces. There are cubicles generally in these spaces which preserve everyone's modesty and life goes on.
But we are way past that now. Self ID requires nothing more than a simple declaration. Thus any bloke at all can walk into any female space and if challenged can say I am a woman. A completely male presenting person can insist they are a woman in all situations.

Anyone with a single brain cell knows this is wide open to abuse and disrespect. What do we do about that?

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

But when real life scenarios are brought up they are likewise dismissed.

And if you threw out such a thing it would in my view be reasonable. The debate would then centre on what those changes should, and shouldn't, be.

In my view, the change should not be self-id, allowing males to compete against females in competitive sport, putting males in prison with females etc etc.

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Doubt all you want. It would be viewed as such by a certain cohort.

Why should a trans-women have to identify herself as trans when she is in fact an actual women? One prominent poster on this thread invented the term trans-female before to try and skate around biology. This is the level of absurdity you have to deal with.

I am not trivialising made up examples to discredit real world examples. Quite the opposite in fact. There are enough real world examples to get on with, without having to invent some.


Just two posts above this trio of posts you will see that I am not ignoring anything.

IAMAMORON

Gruffalux wrote: »

Women have been raped in prisons by trans identifying males. This is a failure of elementary safe guarding.

Can you give an example of when and where this happened?

How is it relevant to Gender identity in Modern Ireland?

IAMAMORON

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

It is if they are gaining, for example, sports scholarships over biological women due to the inherent advantage they have in being male.

Examples please?

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Or the women who were sexually assaulted by a trans-inmate in a women's prison in England.. It became their business.

Once again, we need examples of where this is happening and how it affects Gender identity in Ireland?

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

It becomes your business when you are told you are a 'transphobe', 'anti-trans' or a 'TERF' (always reserved for the female posters ) for refusing to deny biological reality.

The whole crux of the issue is that it has become other peoples business.

As always it appears that the biggest issue which transphobes have over the issue is that they are being asked to offer respect to transsexuals and accept them for what they are. As always the caveat is thrown in over the top that as they are choosing to transition that this is somewhat unfair on anyone who doesn't and that as such they don't deserve the same rights? This is a common argument being offererd by Transphobes?

IAMAMORON

Hector Savage wrote: »

I am just wondering when the first male tennis player ranked around 1000 in ATP decides to transition and join the WTA .... will win about 30 grand slams...

It depends, he might be playing mixed doubles?

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Examples please?



Once again, we need examples of where this is happening and how it affects Gender identity in Ireland?



As always it appears that the biggest issue which transphobes have over the issue is that they are being asked to offer respect to transsexuals and accept them for what they are. As always the caveat is thrown in over the top that as they are choosing to transition that this is somewhat unfair on anyone who doesn't and that as such they don't deserve the same rights? This is a common argument being offererd by Transphobes?

instance?

if theres a single post offering that view in this entire thread its by far in the minority of views offered?

you havent engaged much with any of the many posts that avoid the above, i note

jam_mac_jam

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Examples please?



Once again, we need examples of where this is happening and how it affects Gender identity in Ireland?



As always it appears that the biggest issue which transphobes have over the issue is that they are being asked to offer respect to transsexuals and accept them for what they are. As always the caveat is thrown in over the top that as they are choosing to transition that this is somewhat unfair on anyone who doesn't and that as such they don't deserve the same rights? This is a common argument being offererd by Transphobes?

It's transgender. You cannot change your sex.

I am not sure why you are asking people to speak for transphobes or what the common arguments for transphobe is.

CtevenSrowder

km991148 wrote: »

I am not trivialising made up examples to discredit real world examples. Quite the opposite in fact. There are enough real world examples to get on with, without having to invent some.


Just two posts above this trio of posts you will see that I am not ignoring anything.

Apologies my point about real world examples being ignored was meant to directed at you personally.

CtevenSrowder

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Examples please?



Once again, we need examples of where this is happening and how it affects Gender identity in Ireland?



As always it appears that the biggest issue which transphobes have over the issue is that they are being asked to offer respect to transsexuals and accept them for what they are. As always the caveat is thrown in over the top that as they are choosing to transition that this is somewhat unfair on anyone who doesn't and that as such they don't deserve the same rights? This is a common argument being offererd by Transphobes?

With respect, you come across as quite ignorant on this topic. You consistently ask for examples. Had you done even basic research you would not need examples given to you constantly as you would've come across them yourself.

Look up Karen White, and the girls who missed out on scholarships have already been referenced. We also have this Barbie person here in Ireland. All real world examples.

ingalway

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Can you give an example of when and where this happened?

How is it relevant to Gender identity in Modern Ireland?

Are you saying that unless it happens in Ireland then it doesn't count/matter?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/11/karen-white-how-manipulative-and-controlling-offender-attacked-again-transgender-prison

Having trans women in female prisons is not safe for the women in them. I also believe it is not safe for trans women in male prisons but I don't believe that yet again women should take on the risk because men cannot control themselves.

What should happen in all cases:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47434730

IAMAMORON

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

With respect, you come across as quite ignorant on this topic. You consistently ask for examples. Had you done even basic research you would not need examples given to you constantly as you would've come across them yourself.

Look up Karen White, and the girls who missed out on scholarships have already been referenced. We also have this Barbie person here in Ireland. All real world examples.

This " Barbie" person is suffering from severe mental illness and is currently hospitalised in solitary confinement in a psychological facility.

This is an extreme example, which transphobes like to flitter around, in all of their extreme arguments about why transgender rights should be subjugated and subject to more intense scrutiny and thus treated with contempt.

Genuine transsexuals are notoriously passive and not involved in any sort of violent crime. Please do not accuse me of not doing any "basic research", you have not got the first iota who I am or what I do for a living.

Once again the only examples transphobes are capable of giving is extreme cases which are obviously open to ridicule. Very petty and counterproductive to any genuine discussion or argument.

ingalway

IAMAMORON wrote: »

This " Barbie" person is suffering from severe mental illness and is currently hospitalised in solitary confinement in a psychological facility.

This is an extreme example, which transphobes like to flitter around, in all of their extreme arguments about why transgender rights should be subjugated and subject to more intense scrutiny and thus treated with contempt.

Genuine transsexuals are notoriously passive and not involved in any sort of violent crime. Please do not accuse me of not doing any "basic research", you have not got the first iota who I am or what I do for a living.

Once again the only examples transphobes are capable of giving is extreme cases which are obviously open to ridicule. Very petty and counterproductive to any genuine discussion or argument.

Can you define what a genuine transsexual is please?
I was under the impression that anyone who claims to be a trans person is a trans person, no ifs no buts and that it's transphobic to deny them this human right?

Do you have a copy of the checklist to identify the genuine ones that you can share?

IAMAMORON

ingalway wrote: »

Are you saying that unless it happens in Ireland then it doesn't count/matter?

I am trying to stay on topic, the thread title is very relevant. I am not being pedantic either, but the fact remains that different cultures and societies have very different rules when it comes to gender identity, this thread refers to Gender identity in modern Ireland.

ingalway wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/11/karen-white-how-manipulative-and-controlling-offender-attacked-again-transgender-prison

Having trans women in female prisons is not safe for the women in them. I also believe it is not safe for trans women in male prisons but I don't believe that yet again women should take on the risk because men cannot control themselves.

What should happen in all cases:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47434730

Trans women are notoriously passive, look it up.

As per usual the transphobes are happy to find one extreme example and publish it print it and wave it around as proof and vindication for their cynical attitude towards gender identity. It gets tiresome.

Gruffalux

IAMAMORON wrote: »

This " Barbie" person is suffering from severe mental illness and is currently hospitalised in solitary confinement in a psychological facility.

Proof?

IAMAMORON wrote: »

This is an extreme example, which transphobes like to flitter around, in all of their extreme arguments about why transgender rights should be subjugated and subject to more intense scrutiny and thus treated with contempt.

No. This is a very recent example of real world consequences.

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Genuine transsexuals are notoriously passive and not involved in any sort of violent crime.

Proof? Examples? Lists?

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Once again the only examples transphobes are capable of giving is extreme cases which are obviously open to ridicule. Very petty and counterproductive to any genuine discussion or argument.

Stop calling people who do not agree with your point of view ''transphobes''. It is a deliberate slur, just as if you were to call people racists or homophobes. Desist.

CtevenSrowder

IAMAMORON wrote: »

This " Barbie" person is suffering from severe mental illness and is currently hospitalised in solitary confinement in a psychological facility.

This is an extreme example, which transphobes like to flitter around, in all of their extreme arguments about why transgender rights should be subjugated and subject to more intense scrutiny and thus treated with contempt.

Genuine transsexuals are notoriously passive and not involved in any sort of violent crime. Please do not accuse me of not doing any "basic research", you have not got the first iota who I am or what I do for a living.

Once again the only examples transphobes are capable of giving is extreme cases which are obviously open to ridicule. Very petty and counterproductive to any genuine discussion or argument.

I couldn't give a ****e what you do for a living. You have consistently asked for examples again and again, this comes across as ignorance. Maybe help yourself and stop playing dumb if you are somewhat knowledgeable on the subject.

What transgender rights are being subjugated? You have been asked this question numerous times. Time for you to give some examples.

mohawk

IAMAMORON wrote: »

This " Barbie" person is suffering from severe mental illness and is currently hospitalised in solitary confinement in a psychological facility.

This is an extreme example, which transphobes like to flitter around, in all of their extreme arguments about why transgender rights should be subjugated and subject to more intense scrutiny and thus treated with contempt.

Genuine transsexuals are notoriously passive and not involved in any sort of violent crime. Please do not accuse me of not doing any "basic research", you have not got the first iota who I am or what I do for a living.

Once again the only examples transphobes are capable of giving is extreme cases which are obviously open to ridicule. Very petty and counterproductive to any genuine discussion or argument.

Transsexual is no longer the accepted term when referring to transgender people. Your use of such a word would indicate that you haven’t read much about the topic.
I and others on the thread use the words trans or transgender as they are the terms preferred by trans people themselves.

km991148

ingalway wrote: »

Can you define what a genuine transsexual is please?
I was under the impression that anyone who claims to be a trans person is a trans person, no ifs no buts and that it's transphobic to deny them this human right?

Do you have a copy of the checklist to identify the genuine ones that you can share?

Before this question goes down a rabbit hole.. maybe this is indicative of something that does need to be defined or explored.

There are a lot of separate but overlapping topics in the air. Self ID, Trans people with problems (i.e. rapists or sex offenders who ALSO identify as trans), institutional barriers to safety (i.e. safety of prisoners and failing of the system - I am sure rape happened in female prisons well before any trans prisoners were put there).

People are coming at these very complex topics with all sorts of assumptions and individual areas of one topic are being used to support or deny themes from other topics.

IAMAMORON

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

I couldn't give a ****e what you do for a living. You have consistently asked for examples again and again, this comes across as ignorance. Maybe help yourself and stop playing dumb if you are somewhat knowledgeable on the subject.

What transgender rights are being subjugated? You have been asked this question numerous times. Time for you to give some examples.

The typical mantra of the transphobe,

" I don't give a ( add expletive as required ) , you are the one that is ignorant, why don't you explain blah blah, etc etc "

All they are asking for is a little acceptance and to be allowed live the rest of their lives in relative peace and contentment. It is not a lot to ask for.

excludedbin

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Not sure should I bother.
I'll do one... test the waters...

Rachel McKinnon.

And? Is what she said wrong? Trans people have been openly competing in sports for over a decade and to date have not dominated any of them. Rachel McKinnon pointing out that fact doesn't contradict that it is a fact.

Wibbs

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Examples please?
Once again, we need examples of where this is happening and how it affects Gender identity in Ireland?

I suspect no number of examples will satisfy you. They haven't so far.

As always it appears that the biggest issue which transphobes have over the issue is that they are being asked to offer respect to transsexuals and accept them for what they are.

Loving the straight to "phobe" position. Colours firmly nailed to your mast. But anyway... 1) you earn respect. This is not America where that can be confused and used incorrectly. 2) I for one have never once said Trans should not be accepted or protected in law or by society. I accept them for who they are; Trans. And the best of luck to them.

However, I do not accept this notion that they are, or are equivalent to biological men and women, because that's a provable bloody nonsense. Biological men do not have "gentleman vaginas" and biological women do not have "lady penises". Those terms are a near insane level of delusion.

Now if pointing this 100% actual cast iron fact out is "phobic" then work away with that label. I would be proud to wear it. Better than being fact "phobic" because it happens to suit the weirder ends of gender and identity politics.