Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Gatling

Gremlinertia wrote: »

Ooh that's interesting, must look into dysphoria triggering, unaware of it as a defence or in general really.. The burden of proof regarding a certificate seems to vary wildly too, but i can't exactly get facts on that

At best it's a form filling excercise you don't even need to have a diagnosis of a dysphoria ,and it's supposed to done completely online as well now ,
In the case posted today it was claimed that they were living elsewhere as a woman ,but returned to here as man , violently attacked someone on a night out and then back to being a woman,
Another case involved a male who the experts claimed to be very manipulative when it came to women and didn't meet the criteria of being trans turned up in court with one .

Gremlinertia

Gatling wrote: »

At best it's a form filling excercise you don't even need to have a diagnosis of a dysphoria ,and it's supposed to done completely online as well now ,
In the case posted today it was claimed that they were living elsewhere as a woman ,but returned to here as man , violently attacked someone on a night out and then back to being a woman,
Another case involved a male who the experts claimed to be very manipulative when it came to women and didn't meet the criteria of being trans turned up in court with one .

No matter where you are, people are prepared to go to some ends to escape punishments by any means. There will also those willing to help, for a price, as ever it was throughout history. Not that i'm saying it's the case here but if ther system is vulnerable to that abuse then it can and will be explored..

Don't personally know any trans folk who go to birth gender for visits home etc, it would be extremely difficult mentally.. Another thing i hadn't thought of until this thread..

One eyed Jack

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

How come gender dysphoria is so selective?

Gender dysphoria isn’t selective? Like any condition it can manifest itself in any number of ways to varying degrees of severity. Gender dysphoria itself doesn’t make a person behave violently, and in any case it’s up to the Judge what factors they take into consideration are mitigating or aggravating factors in making their determinations regarding sentencing. I’d be surprised if the Judge didn’t take the man’s emotional state into consideration given it might be grounds for an appeal if they didn’t.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’d be surprised if the Judge didn’t take the man’s emotional state into consideration given it might be grounds for an appeal if they didn’t.

Claimed emotional state ,

Which should not be taken into account for a violent attack attack against others ,
If your happy enough to leave someone with a fractured skull and brain injury then you should be happy to enough to face your actions in court

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Claimed emotional state ,

Which should not be taken into account for a violent attack attack against others ,
If your happy enough to leave someone with a fractured skull and brain injury then you should be happy to enough to face your actions in court

Why do you believe a person’s emotional state at the time of the offence shouldn’t be taken into account in sentencing?

I’d absolutely agree with you though that if a person is happy to leave someone with a fractured skull, they should absolutely face the consequences of their actions in Court. That wasn’t the case here though -

Ms Noctor told the court that Kavanagh was “appalled, disgusted, ashamed” of the incident and had no memory of the events of that night.

AllForIt

A TRANSGENDER woman who assaulted a family friend outside a bar is a “vulnerable” person who will find prison particularly difficult, a Dublin court has heard.

The 'emotional state' is being used as a reason to avert a jail sentence altogether. So sure, why wouldn't you use it as it excuse. Who wouldn't. Though if you throw a punch you'd hardly do it in an non-emotional state. It doesn't tend to be something ppl do casually and then get back to your polite conversation.

Also I don't know how one can be so blind drunk they forget things but still be able to be knock someone out with a punch. It's possible though, MALE aggression can be quite a powerful thing.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’d absolutely agree with you though that if a person is happy to leave someone with a fractured skull, they should absolutely face the consequences of their actions in Court. That wasn’t the case here though -

How was it not the case here ,they violently attacked a person leaving them badly injured,

Gatling

AllForIt wrote: »

Also I don't know how one can be so blind drunk they forget things but still be able to be knock someone out with a punch. It's possible though, MALE aggression can be quite a powerful thing.

But it's been claimed on here trans people are very docile in nature yet , here's another case involving violence , unprovoked violence at that

One eyed Jack

AllForIt wrote: »

Also I don't know how one can be so blind drunk they forget things but still be able to be knock someone out with a punch. It's possible though, MALE aggression can be quite a powerful thing.

Blackout episodes are incredibly common among alcoholics? He didn’t knock the man out with a punch either. From the article -

When Kavanagh tried to run back into the bar, Mr Coogan intervened and Kavanagh punched him, causing him to fall and hit his head off the road.


There’s no such thing either as male or female aggression, correlating behaviour with biology has no scientific basis, notwithstanding the fact that mothers have been known to kill their children and have no memory of the event -


Hazel Waters jailed for five years for killing two-year-old son


In the weeks before the killing, Waters’ family had become concerned about her mental health. Dr Brenda Wright of the Central Mental Hospital wrote a report about Waters on behalf of the prosecution that suggested she had a mental-health issue for some years.

However, Dr Wright said there was insufficient evidence to say whether she qualified for section 5 of the Criminal Law (Insanity) Act.

Dr Wright said she could not make that assessment because Waters claims to have no memory of the killing and therefore her state of mind at the time cannot be established.


There can be any number of reasons for a person to have no memory of events, any number of reasons why a person would be violent. None of them however, are determined by sex.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

None of them however, are determined by sex.

Actually there is plenty of studies relating to male agression linked to sex and gender ,
Trying to link separate case is another attempt to explain it away

Sir Oxman

There is no mitigation AFAIK for being drunk/under the influence while assaulting someone.
Looks like it's the emotional state/mental health route and the won't-be-able-to-cope-with jailtime-because-of-race-gender identity-etc for this case.
A defence solicitor will explore every loophole, mitigation route necessary to reduce sentence or win on behalf of their client, and of course themselves.

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

How was it not the case here ,they violently attacked a person leaving them badly injured,

It’s conjecture on your part to argue he was happy about it when he has no memory of it ever happening. The circumstances where a person is aware of their actions, are not the same as circumstances where they aren’t aware of their actions.

In Ireland, there are currently three forms of insanity: the insanity defence under Section 5, the defence of diminished responsibility under Section 6 and, finally, the unfit to be tried plea under Section 4. The purpose of raising the defence of insanity under Section 5 is to seek an exemption from criminal liability, based on the absence of mens rea, while the purpose of the partial defence of diminished responsibility under Section 6 is to reduce a murder charge to manslaughter. Both defenses can only be raised if the person is fit to stand the trial. Even if the accused has failed to raise any of the above forms of insanity successfully during the trial, the evidence of his or her mental disorder may nevertheless be taken into consideration at the sentencing stage of the trial.


Defense of Insanity in Ireland: Present Law and its Application to Psychopaths

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s conjecture on your part to argue he was happy about it when he has no memory of it ever happening

They all say that(from killers to child abusers) it's not conjecture on my part more conjecture on your part they were suffering some kind of mental disorder at the time of the attack,

Using trans as an excuse for not going to jail is nothing more than a con

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Actually there is plenty of studies relating to male agression linked to sex and gender ,
Trying to link separate case is another attempt to explain it away

I’m well aware there are mountains upon mountains of published papers written by academics in gender studies in liberal institutions in the US, it’s big business here too, but they’re based upon political and social science, not quite the same thing as biology, although there some overlap and influence among the three disciplines when it comes to human behaviour and biology.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

not quite the same thing as biology, although there some overlap

Mountains of papers and yet it's denied , not one bit surprised

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

They all say that(from killers to child abusers) it's not conjecture on my part more conjecture on your part they were suffering some kind of mental disorder at the time of the attack,

Using trans as an excuse for not going to jail is nothing more than a con

No, your claim was that if someone was happy to commit violence, then they should be happy to face punishment. I absolutely agreed with you on that one. However, that wasn’t the case here, nor was it the case in the circumstances I gave where a mother killed her own child. Dr. Wright gave testimony that given the woman had no memory of the event, her state of mind at the time could not be established. Similar circumstances in this case are the fact that the man has no memory of the event, and therefore his state of mind cannot be established. Upon hearing he’d assaulted the man who was a family friend, you don’t think he’d have been remorseful? Those people who knew him better than either of us were certainly of the opinion that he never meant to commit assault -

Before he died, Mr Coogan wrote a letter to the court saying he bore no ill-will or malice towards Kavanagh. Mr Coogan's partner, who is Kavanagh's aunt and who was present at the time, also told gardaí she did not believe Kavanagh meant to assault her partner, the court heard.


As Sir Oxman alluded to already, a solicitor has a duty to the Courts to represent their client to the best of their ability. It’s not about using trans as an excuse for not going to jail, it could be any reason they are permitted to use in representing their clients best interests. The Irish Independent from as far back as I remember had a keen interest in reporting the salacious details of any case.

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Mountains of papers and yet it's denied , not one bit surprised

It’s denied that there’s any scientific basis for the claim which is based upon correlation, not causation.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s denied that there’s any scientific basis for the claim which is based upon correlation, not causation.

I'm actually laughing at that ,

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

I'm actually laughing at that ,

To put it then in terms that’ll really tickle your funny bone - males are not assigned aggressive or violent behaviour at birth.

What you’re arguing is called biological determinism. It’s a claim easily refuted by the overwhelming amount of evidence that the vast majority of males are neither aggressive nor violent.

y0ssar1an22

why do transwomen or men exist?

if you are the same, you are simply a man or a woman, no?

Tokyo

ingalway wrote: »

If you replace 'dysphoria' with 'narcissism' or 'entitlement' it makes much more sense.

Mod: I don't think this thread is for you. ingalway, don't post in the thread again.

Cestmoi 111

https://twitter.com/RiaAlev/status/1363123906756956162?s=20

Hibo Wardere (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibo_Wardere) is a survivor of female genital mutilation and tirelessly campaigns against it. She gets piled on by TRAs for not being inclusive. How does someone even consider that trans ideology is relevant to and should be included in that discussion? I don't understand it. Would be nice if there was a pushback from the trans community on the abuse she gets.

Gruffalux

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/RiaAlev/status/1363123906756956162?s=20

Hibo Wardere (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibo_Wardere) is a survivor of female genital mutilation and tirelessly campaigns against it. She gets piled on by TRAs for not being inclusive. How does someone even consider that trans ideology is relevant to and should be included in that discussion? I don't understand it. Would be nice if there was a pushback from the trans community on the abuse she gets.

Hibo has been getting terrible abuse for years. She is ''supposed '' to use the term ''cis'' woman if she wants to publicly campaign about the women and girls who have had or will have their clitorises forcibly cut off (which includes her), so that trans women don't feel excluded. A normal trans woman would never feel that way about Hibo's work - this incessant abuse comes from very unpleasant, disturbed individuals, or people who have been brain-hijacked by ideological theory, the vast majority of whom are not transgender.

Gatling

Gruffalux wrote: »

Hibo has been getting terrible abuse for years. She is ''supposed '' to use the term ''cis'' woman if she wants to publicly campaign about the women and girls who have had or will have their clitorises forcibly cut off (which includes her), so that trans women don't feel excluded. A normal trans woman would never feel that way about Hibo's work - this incessant abuse comes from very unpleasant, disturbed individuals, or people who have been brain-hijacked by ideological theory, the vast majority of whom are not transgender.

It's just a extreme ideology that more about separating and dividing women in to categories with trans people calling the shots on top

Cestmoi 111

Gruffalux wrote: »

Hibo has been getting terrible abuse for years. She is ''supposed '' to use the term ''cis'' woman if she wants to publicly campaign about the women and girls who have had or will have their clitorises forcibly cut off (which includes her), so that trans women don't feel excluded. A normal trans woman would never feel that way about Hibo's work - this incessant abuse comes from very unpleasant, disturbed individuals, or people who have been brain-hijacked by ideological theory, the vast majority of whom are not transgender.

Morgane Oger has a problem with FGM being considered as a sex-based rather than gender-based issue and has told victims/survivors as much.

I’ve seen complaints about the use of the word “female” in the term and there was that time when TRAs tried to block a bill in part of America that would ban the practice. It’s saddening and maddening that anyone could look at the barbaric issue of FGM and spend their time complaining about it vis a vis trans rights.

Vic_08

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

Morgane Oger has a problem with FGM being considered as a sex-based rather than gender-based issue and has told victims/survivors as much.

I’ve seen complaints about the use of the word “female” in the term and there was that time when TRAs tried to block a bill in part of America that would ban the practice. It’s saddening and maddening that anyone could look at the barbaric issue of FGM and spend their time complaining about it vis a vis trans rights.

Despicable behaviour but not in any way surprising.

These people are ideological zealots and extremists. Nothing particularly unusual about that, the world is full of fringe groups full of hate filled cranks, loons, sociopaths and self aggrandising narcissists using the cause-du-jour for personal penefit. What is unusual and dangerous is the increasingly widespread blind acceptance of this radical ideology under cover of inclusiveness.

One eyed Jack

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

How does someone even consider that trans ideology is relevant to and should be included in that discussion? I don't understand it.

It’s relevant from the point of view that criminalising the practice of FGM also has a significant impact upon whether or not minors have access to what are called gender affirmative surgeries. It’s an incredibly complex issue which is mired in politics. I don’t agree with anyone abusing people who don’t share their opinions, I’m also of the opinion that all forms of genital mutilation or medically unnecessary procedures on minors of either sex are an abhorrent practice. That’s my personal opinion.

The reason there is a backlash against people who share my opinions is that there are people who disagree that the practice is inherently harmful, and argue that it is part of their culture and traditions, and that laws which they feel were imposed upon them without any consultation are unjustified. With regard to FGM specifically, it is primarily women who object to the practice being criminalised -


But the BBC's Anne Soy has been speaking to a group of women in Kenya who support FGM, as it's often referred to. She attended a meeting that was attended by over a thousand women from eight different clans belonging to the Maasai tribe in Kenya.

"They said that no one consulted them even when the country was coming up with laws that prohibited FGM, and so they felt that they were being discriminated against and they needed their voices heard," Soy says.

In 2001, Kenya passed a law to criminalize FGM, especially for girls under 18. It went into effect in 2011.

The meeting of the Maasai women was part of a series of gatherings that came about after a court case was brought against parents of a girl who was circumcised and died as a result. The women told Soy that the practice has been handed down to them from previous generations and they see no reason for it to be stopped.

Soy says for the Maasai women, FGM is an important rite of passage.

“It marks the point when a girl stops being a girl and becomes a woman. In their eyes, anyone who is not circumcised is not a woman and not fit to carry out certain traditions," she says.

Soy points to a study that was carried out in 2009 and showed that 7 out of 10 Maasai girls undergo FGM. She says the few Maasai women who have abandoned the practice have been shunned in the community.

Soy says when she first thought about reporting on this story, she was afraid — because she comes from an ethnic community that traditionally has practiced FGM.


Why do these women in Kenya support female genital mutilation?


Criminalising medically unnecessary surgeries would also impact upon the treatment of minors with disorders of sexual development, or what are commonly referred to as intersex conditions. There’s significant evidence that suggests the procedures performed are medically unnecessary, and people who object to the practices frame them as genital mutilation.

Views regarding the issues involved in FGM are dependent upon how anyone chooses to frame either their objection to criminalising the practices, or their objections to the practices themselves, with people reaching to play the victim card and claim oppression and discrimination when anyone disagrees with their opinions.

Gruffalux

And that folks is how you do upstanding cultural relativism.
The same could be applied to child marriage, forced marriage, the killing of widows, honour killings, women in jail for not wearing veils, and so on.

One eyed Jack

Gruffalux wrote: »

And that folks is how you do upstanding cultural relativism.
The same could be applied to child marriage, forced marriage, the killing of widows, honour killings, women in jail for not wearing veils, and so on.

Yes it could, based upon standards which you or I consider relative to our culture, and I have no doubt anyone who doesn’t share our opinions would point out that we are engaging in cultural relativism, and they’d be absolutely right too, to the point where they’re stating the obvious. One of the reasons why people who object to the classification of disorders of sexual development is because the claims of procedures being medically necessary are based upon cultural norms of how the human body should look, as opposed to any medical necessity or justification based upon scientific evidence - essentially, people who object to the practices argue that the conditions which they are addressing should not be considered disorders in the first place.

Gatling

Gruffalux wrote: »

And that folks is how you do upstanding cultural relativism.
The same could be applied to child marriage, forced marriage, the killing of widows, honour killings, women in jail for not wearing veils, and so on.

It really could be applied to this ,

I'd Imagine a parent bringing there child to the ****hole in the UK and a few weeks later they would be having gender surgery because some quack decided it's best for them,
And then trying to equate it to life saving cancer treatments