Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Aleece2020

Gatling wrote: »

It really could be applied to this ,

I'd Imagine a parent bringing there child to the ****hole in the UK and a few weeks later they would be having gender surgery because some quack decided it's best for them,
And then trying to equate it to life saving cancer treatments

Imagine if the kid grows up and decides that it wasn't what was best for them and now they are severely depressed about how they were forcibly operated on against their desires to change their sex. It's cruel to put children through unnecessary surgeries that they will later come to regret.

Gatling

Aleece2020 wrote: »

Imagine if the kid grows up and decides that it wasn't what was best for them and now they are severely depressed about how they were forcibly operated on against their desires to change their sex. It's cruel to put children through unnecessary surgeries that they will later come to regret.

It's already happening to Kids in the UK after being sent to tavistock where they were put on puberty blocker's ,and have suffered consequences of someone else's action imagine sending 3/4 year old children to a gender reassignment services ,

Hello what the actual ****

Annasopra

Gatling wrote: »

It really could be applied to this ,

I'd Imagine a parent bringing there child to the ****hole in the UK and a few weeks later they would be having gender surgery because some quack decided it's best for them,
And then trying to equate it to life saving cancer treatments

Aleece2020 wrote: »

Imagine if the kid grows up and decides that it wasn't what was best for them and now they are severely depressed about how they were forcibly operated on against their desires to change their sex. It's cruel to put children through unnecessary surgeries that they will later come to regret.

Gatling wrote: »

It's already happening to Kids in the UK after being sent to tavistock where they were put on puberty blocker's ,and have suffered consequences of someone else's action imagine sending 3/4 year old children to a gender reassignment services ,

Hello what the actual ****

Sex Reassignment Surgery is not performed on children so your imaginations are jumping to false conclusions

One eyed Jack

Aleece2020 wrote: »

Imagine if the kid grows up and decides that it wasn't what was best for them and now they are severely depressed about how they were forcibly operated on against their desires to change their sex. It's cruel to put children through unnecessary surgeries that they will later come to regret.

I completely agree, and it’s equally as cruel (or rather unethical) to withhold treatments from anyone on the basis of people’s ignorance. Evidence-based medicine is based upon just that - evidence, not on suggesting that anyone use their imaginations while presenting them with only the negative outcomes involved in any hypothetical scenario to prey on people’s individual moral reservations. Empirical evidence informs ethical considerations in relation to best practices in medicine.

Parental disagreement is often encountered in paediatric patients experiencing gender dysphoria or incongruous gender identity, and the evidence supporting an affirmative approach to their gender identity and recognition of children’s autonomy in terms of their healthcare leads to superior outcomes in terms of their quality of life and overall healthcare, by far outweighs the evidence to the contrary -


Conclusions

Despite the absence of clear clinical guidelines for transgender minors seeking medical treatment in the absence of parental consent, there is sufficient ethical precedent and clinical data to conclude that treatment should not be withheld when a minor is at risk of undue suffering. Because there is evidence to suggest dysphoria and associated comorbidities would be relieved by treatment, this logic aligns with Diekema’s criteria for over-riding parental consent and Mill’s Harm Principle. Although guidance is not law, the capacity of a transgender minor should be strongly advocated for in a matter consistent with a provider’s general treatment of adolescents in any other medical decision-making settings such as STI services and contraception. The clinician should consider the decision to pursue hormone therapy or surgery in relation to current guidelines, risks to the individual patient and the child’s decision-making capacity.


Medically assisted gender affirmation: when children and parents disagree

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Sex Reassignment Surgery is not performed on children so your imaginations are jumping to false conclusions

It’s not just surgery that causes irreversible changes to developing bodies. Not all the posts you quote there mention surgery.

Gatling

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Sex Reassignment Surgery is not performed on children

I never said it was .

Imagine that

Gatling

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

It’s not just surgery that causes irreversible changes to developing bodies. Not all the posts you quote there mention surgery.

Not the first time someone jumped to conclusions about what was said

Tokyo

mike_ie wrote: »

Mod: I don't think this thread is for you. ingalway, don't post in the thread again.

Mod: Threadban lifted after discussion with poster.

One eyed Jack

Aleece2020 wrote: »

Imagine if the kid grows up and decides that it wasn't what was best for them and now they are severely depressed about how they were forcibly operated on against their desires to change their sex. It's cruel to put children through unnecessary surgeries that they will later come to regret.

Just to come back to this, and why I suggested it would be cruel (or rather unethical), to withhold treatment from anyone on the basis of people’s ignorance. It made me revisit this question again -

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I do wonder what could have happened to Debbie Hayton in the last 5 years since they gave this interview that they appear to have had a complete turnaround in their attitude -

And after a bit of research, I came to the conclusion that their attitude hasn’t changed. They’re still the same person at least, but their attitude towards their own experience and their opinions and their attempt to represent the interests of others, is fundamentally based upon where they will most easily find acceptance, whether it’s at home with their family, in a classroom of children or a staff room of teachers, or a school event for parents, or indeed, at a women’s Labour Party conference while proclaiming their affinity and solidarity with women who are campaigning for the protection of women and girls from men and male bodied persons and adult human males, etc.

Their submission to the Commission as I suggested earlier was based upon their politics (I’m even willing to overlook the fact that they’re a trade unionist, but I understand they’re appealing to their audience of traditional Labour Party supporters), there was no scientific argument in it whatsoever, only appeals to tradition, where women and girls had segregation and discrimination and disempowerment forced upon them in single-sex spaces, which limited their participation in society. They sure as hell didn’t fight for it. They were sold it through the perpetuation of false narratives.

I do wish that Debbie Hayton had chosen to submit this piece to the Commission that they have written, because it’s far more grounded in reality than the specious and abstract nonsense they narrated in their submission -


Trans parent: Debbie Hayton shares her journey exclusively with Hood


Above anything, it would demonstrate to the Commission that people who are transgender or in Debbies case they still use the medical term transsexual, it would simply show that fundamentally people who are transgender do not deserve to experience unjust discrimination on the basis of their characteristics, nobody does, and politicians cannot simply consider abstract scientific concepts in their determinations regarding legislation, but must also consider the social context in determining legislation, which in European and Western societies tends to be far more progressive in it’s outlook and thinking in terms of individual rights and freedoms, than other societies which tend to be far more conservative in their outlook in in thinking in terms of tradition and collective responsibility. There are considerable advantages and disadvantages to both approaches.

How does this relate to asking children to reflect on decisions which even adults cannot adequately contemplate such as their reproductive choices? Well if it wasn’t obvious already, it’s expecting people to be able to predict their future with any degree of accuracy. I’d be surprised if anyone were capable of such a feat. It’s immediately restrictive, as though the only possible outcome will be that they will regret their decision because they didn’t have information to hand at the time which they couldn’t possibly have foreseen at the time. It’s the ultimate “I told you so!” from people who think they know better in hindsight when they hear of someone who expresses regrets about their decisions. Children experiencing gender dysphoria which is causing them distress shouldn’t be expected to make decisions about their fertility as children, they should be treated the same as any other child with a psychological condition which is causing them distress, and decisions about their fertility should be made when they are adults who make decisions about their fertility and reproduction based upon the circumstances they’re in at that time. Withholding treatment from children on the basis that it’s been pre-determined that they will regret it, is not the way to practice evidence-based medicine, nor can it be said to be based upon informed consent. It’s entirely unethical to practice medicine in that way.

In saying that, I personally would still be in favour of the social model we have here in Ireland as opposed to the medical model they have in the UK, because evidence suggests that under the medical model, people feel compelled and pressured to be dishonest with themselves and with clinicians in order to obtain a GRC, convincing themselves that they then need to medically and surgically transition, whereas in Ireland that pressure and compulsion in order to obtain a GRC doesn’t exist, and their gender dysphoria is more often alleviated by social transition alone. They may still experience gender dysphoria, but it doesn’t cause them distress in the same way it used to, because they feel they are supported and accepted in Irish society.

ingalway

mike_ie wrote: »

Mod: Threadban lifted after discussion with poster.

Thank you to the boardsies who contacted me with support. Very much appreciated.

Gruffalux

Since I took an interest in this area several years ago one of the first things that bothered me was why there has not been research into endocrine disruptors and the possible interplay with gender confusion issues.
Sperm counts have been falling - drastically. Drastically is the appropriate word because a species that is getting hit at the reproductive level is a species in decline. (PS I am not saying have children, I am saying the ability to have children is important as a health indicator in the broader species).
And there were other issues I knew about re amphibians and fish and genital development.
I have been thinking endogenous chemical imbalance has to be play some role. But because endocrine disruptors being prevalent in our environment and having an effect on sexual characteristics, and potentially on development of the brain in relation to sexual characteristics, would imply a disrupted or imbalanced state if all is not as expected, this is probably not politically acceptable as a theory.
But I think there is a lot needing to be researched in this area. Regarding our species generally, in terms of health and function. The amount of chemicals we have allowed to become widespread in our environments (including our homes and the body) is honestly very serious.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/20/opinion/sunday/endocrine-disruptors-sperm.html

TomTomTim

Amazon accused of ‘absurd and unacceptable’ censorship after book questioning transgender movement vanishes

Author Ryan T. Anderson said his book, "When Harry Became Sally: Responding to the Transgender Moment," has been removed from Amazon – and critics pointed out that the online retailer has a history of censoring books that don’t coincide with the company’s liberal political views.

"I hope you’ve already bought your copy, cause Amazon just removed my book "When Harry Became Sally: Responding to the Transgender Moment" from their cyber shelves.... my other four books are still available (for now)," Anderson tweeted.


"When Harry Became Sally," which has previously been on Amazon’s bestseller list, aimed to provide "thoughtful answers to questions arising from our transgender moment" and offered a "a balanced approach to public policy on gender identity, and a sober assessment of the human costs of getting human nature wrong."

A search of Amazon for "When Harry Became Sally" on Monday doesn’t find Anderson’s book, instead suggesting books with the opposite view such as "The End of Gender: Debunking the Myths about Sex and Identity in Our Society," "Understanding Gender Dysphoria: Navigating Transgender Issues in a Changing Culture" and "Let Harry Become Sally: Responding to the Anti-Transgender Moment."

Amazon link which now leads nowhere: https://www.amazon.co.uk/When-Harry-Became-Sally-Transgender/dp/1594039615

It's currently selling well on Barnes & Noble apparently

Cestmoi 111

Gruffalux wrote: »

Since I took an interest in this area several years ago one of the first things that bothered me was why there has not been research into endocrine disruptors and the possible interplay with gender confusion issues.
Sperm counts have been falling - drastically. Drastically is the appropriate word because a species that is getting hit at the reproductive level is a species in decline. (PS I am not saying have children, I am saying the ability to have children is important as a health indicator in the broader species).
And there were other issues I knew about re amphibians and fish and genital development.
I have been thinking endogenous chemical imbalance has to be play some role. But because endocrine disruptors being prevalent in our environment and having an effect on sexual characteristics, and potentially on development of the brain in relation to sexual characteristics, would imply a disrupted or imbalanced state if all is not as expected, this is probably not politically acceptable as a theory.
But I think there is a lot needing to be researched in this area. Regarding our species generally, in terms of health and function. The amount of chemicals we have allowed to become widespread in our environments (including our homes and the body) is honestly very serious.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/20/opinion/sunday/endocrine-disruptors-sperm.html

Very interesting and I’d say you’re definitely on to something. However there are other major influences at play (I know you’re not denying that): 1) how you are automatically “stunning and brave” for coming out as trans, so the most boring, nerdy loner dude can suddenly become a focus for praise and attention (or how even your involvement in the death of a woman will be completely overshadowed by your subsequent transition, a lá Caitlyn J, and 2) the online influence of tumblr, Reddit and YouTube, eg https://youtu.be/iJYQvGtVJdE

Cestmoi 111

TomTomTim wrote: »

Amazon accused of ‘absurd and unacceptable’ censorship after book questioning transgender movement vanishes




Amazon link which now leads nowhere: https://www.amazon.co.uk/When-Harry-Became-Sally-Transgender/dp/1594039615

It's currently selling well on Barnes & Noble apparently

Interesting how all the censorship seems to only go in one direction.

jam_mac_jam

They have Mein kapmf for sale. What a world.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

They have Mein kapmf for sale. What a world.

And, you know, I’m actually okay with them having Mein Kampf for sale too!

jam_mac_jam

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

And, you know, I’m actually okay with them having Mein Kampf for sale too!

Oh me too. I don't think any book should be banned or not sold.

yourdeadwright

Here's an unpopular opinion ,

In the future we will see less and less gay men
The current trend seems to be that young feminine males who in the past would grow up to be gay men are now being told by certain sections of society that they where simple born in the wrong body and should be Trans ,

Before you get your pitch forks r iv no issues with either do what ever makes you happy but I can see society going down this road,

ingalway

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Here's an unpopular opinion ,

In the future we will see less and less gay men
The current trend seems to be that young feminine males who in the past would grow up to be gay men are now being told by certain sections of society that they where simple born in the wrong body and should be Trans ,

Before you get your pitch forks r iv no issues with either do what ever makes you happy but I can see society going down this road,

Even worse for young lesbians. Huge increase in young girls taking testosterone, binding or having a double mastectomy. I was told by a TRA lesbian recently the young girls won't even use the word lesbian as it's transphobic. Many of these girls are just what would have been called
"young butches" but of course that's transphobic now as well. There are already people who are detransitioning, they have terrible physical and mental health issues to deal with. I believe there will be many more in the coming years.

Invidious

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Oh me too. I don't think any book should be banned or not sold.

Encounter Books has released a statement:

Yesterday, we learned that Ryan T. Anderson’s When Harry Became Sally: Responding to the Transgender Moment, which Encounter Books originally published in 2018, was removed without explanation from Amazon.com and from its subsidiary Audible.

Encounter Books is committed to publishing authors with differing views on a wide range of issues of public concern. We do this because a free society requires robust debate and spaces where dissenting opinions can be expressed unimpeded.

If Amazon, which controls most of the book sales in America, has decided to delist a book with which some of its functionaries disagree, that is an unconscionable assault on free speech. It will have a chilling effect on the publishing industry and the free circulation of ideas. It must not be left to stand unchallenged.

Purchase Ryan T. Anderson’s When Harry Became Sally here.

Support Encounter Books with a donation below.

Good for them. They are correct that a free society requires the ability to express dissenting opinions. I'm going to buy a copy of this book now, just because Amazon doesn't want me to read it.

Penn

Invidious wrote: »

Encounter Books has released a statement:



Good for them. They are correct that a free society requires the ability to express dissenting opinions. I'm going to buy a copy of this book now, just because Amazon doesn't want me to read it.

I'm sure had Jeff Bezos not already decided to step down as CEO, he would have following your purchase of the book.

ingalway

Things have taken a sinister turn in Spain.

The DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER, Carmen Calvo, signed a letter in support of protecting sex based rights and questioning the impact of males self identifying into female spaces.

AN EFFIGY OF HER CORPSE WAS HUNG FROM A TREE.

https://twitter.com/DebbieHayton/status/1363414104308928517?s=20

One eyed Jack

Invidious wrote: »

Encounter Books has released a statement:


Good for them. They are correct that a free society requires the ability to express dissenting opinions. I'm going to buy a copy of this book now, just because Amazon doesn't want me to read it.

Amazon doesn’t care whether anyone reads the book or not, and the publishers and the author only care about sales figures. No such thing as bad publicity -


https://twitter.com/AbigailShrier/status/1277906221618487296?s=20


Another book “Amazon doesn’t want you to read”... available on Amazon.

Gentlemanne

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Here's an unpopular opinion ,

In the future we will see less and less gay men
The current trend seems to be that young feminine males who in the past would grow up to be gay men are now being told by certain sections of society that they where simple born in the wrong body and should be Trans ,

Before you get your pitch forks r iv no issues with either do what ever makes you happy but I can see society going down this road,

Not sure why its universally accepted that gay and lesbian people are born that way, but for a lot of people they can't seem to understand that the same is true for transgender people.

You cannot just be convinced to become trans. That isn't happening and anyone suggesting it, including yourself, is doing so for reasons that are at best out of ignorance but at worst out of maliciousness.

ingalway wrote: »

I was told by a TRA lesbian recently the young girls won't even use the word lesbian as it's transphobic

What is the point in lying like this? I like to give people the benefit of the doubt but this is so obviously a fabrication.

suicide_circus

So people are born transgender but yet gender is a social construct?

Gatling

Gentlemanne wrote: »

What is the point in lying like this? I like to give people the benefit of the doubt but this is so obviously a fabrication.

Nothing like a little attention seeking to start the day

Gatling

suicide_circus wrote: »

So people are born transgender but yet gender is a social construct?

Yeah it's one of them where one side keeps moving the goal posts to suit the ideology

Gruffalux

Gentlemanne wrote: »

You cannot just be convinced to become trans. That isn't happening and anyone suggesting it, including yourself, is doing so for reasons that are at best out of ignorance but at worst out of maliciousness.

You better tell this info to Andrea Long Chu, a lauded trans woman writer, who was credited by the founder of gender studies, Sandy Stone, with starting the second wave of trans.
Look them up.
Andrea has published that sissy porn made them trans. This must be awkward coming from a leading writer on the subject. They need to be corrected.

https://as.nyu.edu/complit/people/graduate-students/chu-andrea-long.html

Gentlemanne

suicide_circus wrote: »

So people are born transgender but yet gender is a social construct?

https://twitter.com/9BillionTigers/status/1364398491099795460?s=20

Annasopra

Graham Linehan harassing women again. If you believe the spin and lies above all the nasty stuff is one sided.

https://metro.co.uk/2021/02/23/graham-linehan-joins-queer-womens-dating-app-her-stunt-14130662/