Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Gruffalux

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

That is good news. But also quite sad that it's only being removed now. It's a pretty horrible defence.

Good that it is removed indeed.
I hope/ask is the defense of gender identity also being removed from the defendant/criminal as a mitigation plea also? It has been used in Ireland recently as a plea for mitigation and I see it being used elsewhere - eg prison would be difficult for my client given their gender identity or my client was suffering trauma due to coming out as transgender etc. There should be removal of such defense from the offender also.

Also the issue of recording crimes as per gender identity not sex has serious implications for criminological study going forward. There should be recording of crimes under both gender identity and sex where both exist and are not the same.

One eyed Jack

Gruffalux wrote: »

Good that it is removed indeed.
I hope/ask is the defense of gender identity also being removed from the defendant/criminal as a mitigation plea also? It has been used in Ireland recently as a plea for mitigation and I see it being used elsewhere - eg prison would be difficult for my client given their gender identity or my client was suffering trauma due to coming out as transgender etc. There should be removal of such defense from the offender also.

Recently? Consideration for the gender or sex of the accused or convicted have always been used, whether in arguing mitigating circumstances at trial, or arguing for leniency in sentencing. That’s very different from the idea of using perceived or actual characteristics of the victim as a defence.

Gruffalux wrote: »

Also the issue of recording crimes as per gender identity not sex has serious implications for criminological study going forward. There should be recording of crimes under both gender identity and sex where both exist and are not the same.

Every change has “serious implications going forward”, and how crimes are recorded is no different, not because of the idea that recording gender identity or sex has any great impact on the statistical data, but simply because there are no international standards in how the data is recorded. Every country has their own way of recording statistics, which is an issue for some countries in that their levels of criminal behaviour can be over-represented in some contexts. The most obvious example of these being how rape statistics are recorded in Sweden -

Crime in Sweden – the difficulties in making international comparisons

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

That is good news. But also quite sad that it's only being removed now. It's a pretty horrible defence.

Can you decipher that for me a bit? I am terrible at trying to understand legalese.

jam_mac_jam

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Can you decipher that for me a bit? I am terrible at trying to understand legalese.

The gay panic defence is that there are extenuating circumstances caused by a gay person hitting on you. So you can argue that you should have a lower sentence because you were so enraged by the gayness that you were not in your right mind.

I haven't heard it used in a transwoman or transman case only gay cases. It's mostly a US thing. But pretty horrible.

Sir Oxman

2021 - what a time to be alive...

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-56204865

Gatling

Sir Oxman wrote: »

2021 - what a time to be alive...

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-56204865

That's great news ,

Women become mother's imagine that

Gruffalux

Gender GP is supplying puberty blockers and cross sex hormones to children online. The article in the Telegraph is behind a paywall but this article in a Spanish outlet allows one to select English. (Somewhat ironically everyone including an inanimate clinic becomes '''he'' after that )

https://contraelborradodelasmujeres.org/como-los-ninos-pueden-pedir-desde-su-habitacion-drogas-transgenero-que-alteran-la-vida/

Some quotes from an investigation done by a journalist -

GenderGP, an online healthcare clinic uses a loophole to circumvent NHS rules and prescribe sex change drugs to children under 16 without parental consent. An undercover Telegraph reporter posing as a 15-year-old girl was prescribed testosterone, the male hormone, which is a controlled drug, after just two Skype appointments with counselors and a Skype appointment with a doctor at the online clinic.

He also confirmed that he has prescribed cross-sex hormones for boys as young as 12 and puberty blockers for boys as young as 10.

Gatling

Gruffalux wrote: »

Gender GP is supplying puberty blockers and cross sex hormones to children online. The article in the Telegraph is behind a paywall but this article in a Spanish outlet allows one to select English. (Somewhat ironically everyone including an inanimate clinic becomes '''he'' after that )

https://contraelborradodelasmujeres.org/como-los-ninos-pueden-pedir-desde-su-habitacion-drogas-transgenero-que-alteran-la-vida/

Some quotes from an investigation done by a journalist -

That's absolutely crazy that they are getting away with it , anyone involved should have the licenses to practice stripped and or face criminal prosecution

Gruffalux

Gatling wrote: »

That's absolutely crazy that they are getting away with it , anyone involved should have the licenses to practice stripped and or face criminal prosecution

They are directing the ''patients'' to online appts and supply of prescription from doctors in Romania and Egypt, it seems. 1 in 6 of the 1800 people supplied illegally by GenderGP last year with life-changing drugs are under 16 years old.

LLMMLL

A lovely story coming from Japan:

[URL] https://matcha-jp.com/en/9828?amp=true&__twitter_impression=true[/url]

Gatling

Gruffalux wrote: »

They are directing the ''patients'' to online appts and supply of prescription from doctors in Romania and Egypt, it seems. 1 in 6 of the 1800 people supplied illegally by GenderGP last year with life-changing drugs are under 16 years old.

And yet little or no condemnation

Gatling

Jessica Watkins, an Oath Keeper charged with conspiring to storm the US Capitol, has asked to be released from jail pending trial, alleging that she has been “treated harshly” and is at “particular risk in custody” because she is transgender. She also argues she is no threat to the public and went to the Capitol only because “she believed that the president of the United States was calling upon her

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/jessicagarrison/oath-keeper-transgender-jail-jessica-watkins

Cestmoi 111

Gruffalux wrote: »

Gender GP is supplying puberty blockers and cross sex hormones to children online. The article in the Telegraph is behind a paywall but this article in a Spanish outlet allows one to select English. (Somewhat ironically everyone including an inanimate clinic becomes '''he'' after that )

https://contraelborradodelasmujeres.org/como-los-ninos-pueden-pedir-desde-su-habitacion-drogas-transgenero-que-alteran-la-vida/

Some quotes from an investigation done by a journalist -

Why are they so invested?

One eyed Jack

Sir Oxman wrote: »

2021 - what a time to be alive...

Well you might scoff, but the significance of the decision should not be underestimated. I’m surprised that Government were of the opinion that the term ‘mother’ was deemed “legally acceptable” as opposed to recognising that it was a legal imperative, or they could have set a precedent for the use of the term in law, which would have supported Freddy McConnell’s case before the ECHR.

In case you don’t remember the decision of the Supreme Court in the UK when they rejected hearing the case taken by Freddy McConnell following losing their appeal of the decision made by the High Court -


In the present case, the claimant submitted that he was a ‘male parent’ and therefore the baby’s ‘father’ (para 63). The Government however did not agree that this was the correct term, arguing that “the person’s biological role in the process of conception, pregnancy, and birth” is what is reflected in the term mother. The court agreed with the Government’s reasoning and concluded at para 271 that “there is a material difference between a person’s gender and their status as a parent” and that the biological/gestational parental role is separate from the social/psychological/emotional role. It explained that, as a matter of law, the term ‘mother’ is free-standing and separate from consideration of legal gender, thus in law there can be male mothers and female fathers (para 251). This is interesting language from a court, as although the terms ‘male mother’ and ‘female father’ have been used by journalists, and appear in at least one medical dictionary, as far as we are aware this is the first time these terms have been used judicially.


Freddy McConnell Transgender Father Judgement


In Ireland, similar concerns about recognition of the legal status of parents who are transgender was raised by the Opposition and other parties at the time to the language used in the proposed legislation following the outcome of the referendum which proposed to repeal the 8th amendment -


Abortion Legislation Will Not Mention Transgender Men


Government sort of made a half-arsed end-run around the whole issue by introducing legislation which will allow certain same-sex female parents to be legally recognised as co-parents of their children -


Part 2 & 3 of the Children and Family Relationships Act
(CFRA) 2015


From the language used, you can see that it’s limited in its application, and still isn’t in conflict with the GRA, which is still not the ‘license to thrill’ that some people here are arguing it is, but it will help women in circumstances like this couple -


Donegal lesbian IVF mum is denied Irish passport for her son as 1956 law states she’s not the little tot’s mother


Hopefully now you’re able to understand why the decision is important for people who are affected by the decision. It’s not so much “what a time to be alive”, as “what a time to give birth”, as it will be the generation being born now who will be saddled with the consequences of legislation which fails to offer them legal recognition and protection, not entirely dissimilar to the way the children of unmarried couples do not have the same protections in law as the children of married couples (or those children of couples who were married at least).

Staggering the amount of people who still think “marriage is just a piece of paper”.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I can’t roll my eyes back far enough in my head at this bit:



:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

But since self-ID has come in, nOtHiNg hAs hApPeNeD apparently. Going by the laws of this land, the GRC this person now holds must be taken seriously. So if a custodial sentence is handed down, it will be women’s prison for the fragrant Shauna. At least transgender women are sectioned off from the female population though I’d not feel very secure if I was one of the females, especially if this starts happening more and more.



Though it seems that the defence are looking to swerve a custodial sentence entirely because of the transgender status of the accused.

This person will indeed serve time in women’s prison. The assault was characterised as a scuffle but the victim ended up in intensive care with a brain bleed. It was very magnanimous of the victim to say that he bore no ill will towards to the accused but that’s not of much comfort to the female inmates who will now have to share with a male convicted of a violent crime.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/woman-jailed-for-assaulting-a-family-friend-who-was-trying-to-break-up-a-fight-1.4498193?mode=amp

Gruffalux

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

This person will indeed serve time in women’s prison. The assault was characterised as a scuffle but the victim ended up in intensive care with a brain bleed. It was very magnanimous of the victim to say that he bore no ill will towards to the accused but that’s not of much comfort to the female inmates who will now have to share with a male convicted of a violent crime.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/woman-jailed-for-assaulting-a-family-friend-who-was-trying-to-break-up-a-fight-1.4498193?mode=amp

Bad.

Gatling

Gruffalux wrote: »

Bad.

It's going to get more common as we go along ,

But your honour it was my male anger that made me do it ,I'm a woman know and ive no male anger now that I'm a woman

Gruffalux

There is something oddly bothersome (just for me probably, I hasten to add!) in 2 well-off middle -class women - the judge and the barrister - one is defending Kavanagh on the basis of their trauma as if tgat gives some reason to sucker punch someone into a brain bleed, the other is sending Kavanagh off to the women's prison. These well-off middle-class women will very rarely end up in prison. Nor will they likely have to depend solely upon a women's refuge, for example, to escape violence as they can afford to go elsewhere. They have choice and agency. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has been speaking a lot recently about the middle class feminism which utterly ignores the downtrodden less-priviliged classes of women. And here again are the women who have mostly had very rough lives having to bear the brunt of high falutin ideology coined in ivory towers far from where the rubber will actually hit the road when the ideas play out in real time.

Anyway. Probably offended everyone equally in the thread now. See why I should never be called a terF!!

Invidious

Gruffalux wrote: »

There is something oddly bothersome (just for me probably, I hasten to add!) in 2 well-off middle -class women - the judge and the barrister - one is defending Kavanagh on the basis of their trauma as if tgat gives some reason to sucker punch someone into a brain bleed, the other is sending Kavanagh off to the women's prison.

I agree entirely with the spirit of your post, but do want to note that the gender recognition certificate presented in court — which was, of course, obtained while the accused was awaiting trial for violent assault — obliged the state to recognize its holder as a bona fide female and treat them as it would any other natural-born woman. So the judge didn't really have a choice in sending Kavanagh to a women's prison.

It's an entirely ridiculous situation created by the hasty and ill-thought-out practice of granting gender recognition certificates on the basis of self-ID. Any violent criminal can now gain legal recognition as a woman, at least for the duration of "her" trial and short stay in prison, and then segue back to living as a man upon release.

AllForIt

I want to say something about pronouns.

Firstly it would help to say what a general pronoun is, not that youz don't know. To use a word in place of another, for brevity sake. A smaller word to say and write, like 'it'.

More specifically when it comes to people who's names we either know or don't know, we use she and he instead. Gendered pronouns.

Why gendered pronouns? Why not height pronouns, why not skin coloured pronouns, why not weight pronouns, why not eye coloured pronouns?

Well, because gender is a human characteristic that hitherto was completely obvious. 99.9% of the time indisputable. Because humans are very good at detecting whether someone is male or female. For reasons more than a visual inspection. Makes sense then. Could have used height as a pronoun but people grow so aren't always the same size, in some cases eye color can change and it's hard to see from afar, and weight can go up and down, but Gender seems the most obvious thing that doesn't change, so we went with gendered pronouns. We didn't have to have gendered pronouns , but it just adds a bit more clarity, we could have had a general one dimensional non-gendered pronoun something like 'it', for humans.

But now this is all up in the air, one has to state their pronouns. You can't assume one's pronouns. You have to put it on your Twitter profile, or sign off in an email your preferred pronoun. Because you just can't assume one's pronoun anymore.

But this is totally absurd. If you can't assume one's pronoun their is no point in using 'gendered' pronouns at all. The whole point in using gendered pronouns was precisely decided on because you can assume it. If you can't assume it you might as well use some other undeniable human characteristic like height or whatever that you can assume with 99.9 % certainty. But I can't think of any human characteristic that suits as much as biological sex hence gendered pronouns became a thing.

So, it seems to me the only way we are going to ever get out of this absurd debate about pronouns is that we stop using gendered pronouns altogether. And this just instinctively seems wrong to me.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gruffalux wrote: »

There is something oddly bothersome (just for me probably, I hasten to add!) in 2 well-off middle -class women - the judge and the barrister - one is defending Kavanagh on the basis of their trauma as if tgat gives some reason to sucker punch someone into a brain bleed, the other is sending Kavanagh off to the women's prison. These well-off middle-class women will very rarely end up in prison. Nor will they likely have to depend solely upon a women's refuge, for example, to escape violence as they can afford to go elsewhere. They have choice and agency. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has been speaking a lot recently about the middle class feminism which utterly ignores the downtrodden less-priviliged classes of women. And here again are the women who have mostly had very rough lives having to bear the brunt of high falutin ideology coined in ivory towers far from where the rubber will actually hit the road when the ideas play out in real time.

Anyway. Probably offended everyone equally in the thread now. See why I should never be called a terF!!

A great term has been coined for this phenomenon - luxury beliefs.

political analyst

https://iseult.substack.com/p/execution-in-effigy-a-very-chilling

A life size effigy of a woman hangs by a noose in the pilgrimage city of Santiago de Compostela, home to a tribunal of the Spanish Inquisition. The painted mask identifies her, and her heresy is displayed through the Sambenito, the symbolic cloth of penance and humiliation, she wears.

She is Carmen Calvo, the Deputy Prime Minister of Spain. Democratically elected polictician. Socialist. Feminist. Woman.

She was executed in effigy during the early hours of the Feb 20, 2021 however the gruesome tradition dates back to the public execution of heretics during the Spanish Inquisition.

Carmen Calvo is a 21st century gender identity heretic. She hangs from a tree in the Plaza 8 de Marzo, the square where local feminists celebrate International Women's day.

One eyed Jack

Gruffalux wrote: »

These well-off middle-class women will very rarely end up in prison. Nor will they likely have to depend solely upon a women's refuge, for example, to escape violence as they can afford to go elsewhere. They have choice and agency. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has been speaking a lot recently about the middle class feminism which utterly ignores the downtrodden less-priviliged classes of women. And here again are the women who have mostly had very rough lives having to bear the brunt of high falutin ideology coined in ivory towers far from where the rubber will actually hit the road when the ideas play out in real time.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

A great term has been coined for this phenomenon - luxury beliefs.

Ne’er a hint of self-awareness at all?

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is the very definition of what she criticises in others, making up a false narrative to claim asylum in the Netherlands, became a member of the National Parliament, then left the Netherlands for the US where she became a US citizen and was relatively unheard of until recently when she became the Rachel Dolezal of “classic liberalism”, basically just another form of identity politics.

I guess when you can’t fester division and resentment by gender, fester division and resentment by class, except for the fact that Ayaan Hirsi Ali was never a Somalian refugee, she’s a well-educated Westernised critic of Islam, was then and now she’s found a new way to play the victim.

suicide_circus

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/prisons-struggling-to-cope-with-20-jump-in-female-inmates-1.4049181

Might be time for a new women's prison?

...Ghost...

suicide_circus wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/prisons-struggling-to-cope-with-20-jump-in-female-inmates-1.4049181

Might be time for a new women's prison?

That explains all those fully suspended sentences we've been seeing.

political analyst

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

This person will indeed serve time in women’s prison. The assault was characterised as a scuffle but the victim ended up in intensive care with a brain bleed. It was very magnanimous of the victim to say that he bore no ill will towards to the accused but that’s not of much comfort to the female inmates who will now have to share with a male convicted of a violent crime.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/woman-jailed-for-assaulting-a-family-friend-who-was-trying-to-break-up-a-fight-1.4498193?mode=amp

The barrister representing the defendant in that case says that the defendant and the other trans woman who is in prison are kept separate from the rest of the prison population.

This is getting absolutely insane

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56251452

Sir Oxman

Deleted User wrote: »

This is getting absolutely insane

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56251452

Oh, nothing new.
You see it here with the insistence of using 'cis' and 'terf' - it's part of the pattern of extreme activists to give a glimmer of hope that the illogicalities can pass some weak-minded members of the public and make it sound legit and 'acceptable' They really, really need 'cis' to take off so watch out for that one.

When 'born in the wrong body' was marked as the utter nonsense it is - at least in the UK - extremist organisations (many in workplaces and schools 'educating' people with this crud) and activists scrambled to disown that particular one.
Now? Never hear it.



Hilarity note:
Here they are currently 'editing' Wikipedia (that'd be where a lot of search engines automatically link to at the top of your search result query) to erase their eh, missteps.
It's a con, a long con but a very devious one.

Seems to be a little internal ideological b*tchfight going on.
While wondering what the new definite definitions will be tomorrow, I'm pretty sure I know who Intl Women's History Month will be all about...


https://twitter.com/xx_chromosomes_/status/1366745844528132098

Gruffalux

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Oh, nothing new.
You see it here with the insistence of using 'cis' and 'terf' - it's part of the pattern of extreme activists to give a glimmer of hope that the illogicalities can pass some weak-minded members of the public and make it sound legit and 'acceptable' They really, really need 'cis' to take off so watch out for that one.

When 'born in the wrong body' was marked as the utter nonsense it is - at least in the UK - extremist organisations (many in workplaces and schools 'educating' people with this crud) and activists scrambled to disown that particular one.
Now? Never hear it.



Hilarity note:
Here they are currently 'editing' Wikipedia (that'd be where a lot of search engines automatically link to at the top of your search result query) to erase their eh, missteps.
It's a con, a long con but a very devious one.

Seems to be a little internal ideological b*tchfight going on.
While wondering what the new definite definitions will be tomorrow, I'm pretty sure I know who Intl Women's History Month will be all about...


https://twitter.com/xx_chromosomes_/status/1366745844528132098

What the heck does that mean - ''women'' as a singular noun?

Gatling

It's woman ,


Womxn is made up for a little attention seeking