Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Gentlemanne

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Literally every other page has someone posting whatever negative news story they can find about trans people and I've never seen you have an issue with it.


Shocking hypocrisy..

No hypocrisy at all.

A trans person paid for an operation. It was pointless.

Unless you somehow think that the story of a person donating money means that all trans people are good?

If that's the case, does Jessica yanniv prove that the are all bad?

My issue is with erasure of biology and the difference between the sexes, not the personality of the people.

Whether a reason donates money to another has nothing to do with the fact the are or are not trans.

Gruffalux

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

Very easy to find negative news stories on this issue and the vast majority are not being posted here, it would take over the thread if they were all to be posted.

I, for one, have no issues with a nice news story being posted, even if it’s not related to the wider discussion of identity politics or clashes of rights.

I actively CHOOSE NOT to post the horrible stories I see all the time. There are more and more. Child rapists who self ID as women. Murderers who self ID as women. It is an insult for ordinary transgender people that improperly self IDing as a woman may be used by violent people who are likely looking for mitigation pleas when it comes to sentencing or location of prison. 10% of travelers in UK jails self ID as women - it is wide open to abuse.
It is one of the inherent dangers and contradictions in self ID. It is part of the reason why there needs to be gate keeping- for everyone, including trans people. I mean, 30% of women in jail in the UK are there for not paying the TV license. WTF would the third of all woman in jail for not paying the TV license have to risk being in jail with a violent male-bodied child rapist?
And at the same time transsexual women need to be accommodated safely as it is too dangerous for them in the male estate. A civilised calibrated response can be made that is not slavishly following political correctness regardless of potential collateral damage. Turning the female estate into effectively a mixed sex estate is not the answer.
There ARE natal women sex offenders for sure - but way way less than in the male estate at 2% and this is included among the total number of women in jail which is 5% of total prison population.

Some stats from recent report in this thread.
https://twitter.com/STILLTish/status/1367203072297082890?s=20

Gatling

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Literally every other page has someone posting whatever negative news story they can find about trans

Not true at all .

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Literally every other page has someone posting whatever negative news story they can find about trans people and I've never seen you have an issue with it.


Shocking hypocrisy..

It would be hypocritical if people here were saying that all transgender people are awful. I’d be absolutely amazed if there wasn’t lots of incredibly kind transgender people just like any other societal group. So posting a “transgender person is good samaritan” article is nothing more than human interest story blandness. And in my view, the person highlighting that a transgender person did something kind is the questionable one here. Does LLMMLL think it’s so rare that it needs to be highlighted? Why wouldn’t a transgender person be philanthropic just like anyone else?

Cestmoi 111

https://mobile.twitter.com/stilltish/status/1367203072297082890/photo/1?ref_url=https%3a%2f%2fwww.boards.ie%2fvbulletin%2fshowthread.php%3ft%3d2058132572page%3d299
A Twitter thread regarding the proposed amendments to hate crime legislation in Scotland, which would have a serious impact on freedom of speech. An FOI request highlighted that the only two “stakeholders” that the Cabinet Secretary met with prior to proposing certain changes were the Equality Network and the Scottish Trans Alliance; essentially two cheeks of the same arse. This is despite thousands of objections and concerns being raised.
This is an example of what people mean by “policy capture” by trans lobby groups. I think this is similar to what happened here with the self-ID laws and its the kind of thing we have to look out for, if it’s not already too late.

Cestmoi 111

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

It would be hypocritical if people here were saying that all transgender people are awful. I’d be absolutely amazed if there wasn’t lots of incredibly kind transgender people just like any other societal group. So posting a “transgender person is good samaritan” article is nothing more than human interest story blandness. And in my view, the person highlighting that a transgender person did something kind is the questionable one here. Does LLMMLL think it’s so rare that it needs to be highlighted? Why wouldn’t a transgender person be philanthropic just like anyone else?

I have a different take to you. For a start, I also imagine there are lots of incredibly kind transgender people just like any other societal group.
But it’s way too easy to find the bad stuff in this small group. The mainstream views that support trans rights at the expense of the rights and safety of women and children are vocally supported by the majority of transpeople (online at least). Regardless of how risky or unfair something might be for women and children, if they benefit trans identified males then they are widely supported and indeed pushed through in policy and practice.
I mentioned before that I visited some popular online trans spaces and was shocked by the level of openly misogynistic views and also the instance of bizarre paraphilias that were not just accepted but welcomed.
I know of the transpeople on the ‘other side’, like Rose of Dawn, Miranda Yardley, Debbie Hayton, etc, but these people are mostly vilified and ostracised by the general trans community.
So personally I would welcome the opportunity to hear some positive trans stories/news. Not necessarily stories about individuals who did a good deed, but to learn where the nice, regular transpeople hang out and what their views are. They’re very welcome to disagree with my views but I’ve no interest in people who want to trample over valid concerns about the rights and safety of women and children.

LLMMLL

Nice to see someone being supportive of trans people. I think in many ways we are moving on from darker days.

[URL] https://people.com/movies/pedro-pascal-supports-sister-lux-comes-out-trans-woman/?amp=true&fbclid=IwAR1ROyWNRawX1MdtOAOZIeF1z8O_HzSZ2NH5iz2m4MXl0KA_e_U-99yVIm0&__twitter_impression=true[/URL]

Gruffalux

Sibling stories trending it seems . Andrea and Sinéad Watson talk about the friendship and support between them as Sinéad transitioned and then years later became that mythical creature - a detransitioner..

https://www.transgendertrend.com/transition-detransition-conversation-between-sisters/

Sinead, who has been through a double mastectomy and severe mental trauma, advocates for the affirmation model to be revised and especially because of the frequency of underlying mental health issues in transitioning young people.

Gruffalux

Sinead's Twitter

https://twitter.com/ImWatson91

LLMMLL

Here's a touching story from India. This woman's parents fully supported her and helped finance her transition.

[URL] https://www.thebetterindia.com/245879/transgender-doctor-kerala-dr-priya-ayurveda-gender-reassignment-surgery-family-support-san-196/amp/?__twitter_impression=true[/URL]

Gruffalux

It is nice that the trans lady above is having a good life. It brings to mind though the reality of gender in India, of all places.

Gender self - identifying could be a life saver for so many girls and women in India. If only it could happen and be real and their lives could be changed by it, literally millions would be saved.
The 7% of girls in India married before the age of 15 could avoid forced child marriage, they could self identify as boys so they could still go to school and get ahead for themselves, know how to read, have a few bob from a job.
Girls and women could self identify out of the horrific rape stats against females in India - in some places whole villages will rape a girl to punish her.
Older women could self identify out of the ill treatment (and sometimes killing) of widows.
But most of all natal females could be self identified out of the holocaust of abortions and infanticides of female children that happens in India all the time.
117 million girls or more go ''missing'' every year due to sex selective foeticide - and India is one of the worst places for aborting babies for the sole reason that they are female.
And then there are the women being used by westerners as surrogates in India - they could self identify out of that enslavement perhaps?

India above all places in the world demonstrates how sex-based protections and rights are vital.


https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/health/india-witnesses-one-of-the-highest-female-infanticide-incidents-in-the-world-54803

Edit to correct it 148 million girls over the past several decades.

Gentlemanne

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

But it’s way too easy to find the bad stuff in this small group

Is it? Do you go out of your way to look for this stuff, or do you just come across is often? If it's the former, that is very strange, if its the latter, then you are probably following or know people who are deterimined to influence your view on trans people in a negative way.

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

I mentioned before that I visited some popular online trans spaces and was shocked by the level of openly misogynistic views and also the instance of bizarre paraphilias that were not just accepted but welcomed.

What exact spaces did you visit?
I have trans friends, I follow trans content creators, and this isn't my experience at all. The only time I see this is when right-wingers go out of their way to invade spaces just to mock people.

Cestmoi 111

Gruffalux wrote: »

It is nice that the trans lady above is having a good life. It brings to mind though the reality of gender in India, of all places.

Gender self - identifying could be a life saver for so many girls and women in India. If only it could happen and be real and their lives could be changed by it, literally millions would be saved.
The 7% of girls in India married before the age of 15 could avoid forced child marriage, they could self identify as boys so they could still go to school and get ahead for themselves, know how to read, have a few bob from a job.
Girls and women could self identify out of the horrific rape stats against females in India - in some places whole villages will rape a girl to punish her.
Older women could self identify out of the ill treatment (and sometimes killing) of widows.
But most of all natal females could be self identified out of the holocaust of abortions and infanticides of female children that happens in India all the time.
117 million girls or more go ''missing'' every year due to sex selective foeticide - and India is one of the worst places for aborting babies for the sole reason that they are female.
And then there are the women being used by westerners as surrogates in India - they could self identify out of that enslavement perhaps?

India above all places in the world demonstrates how sex-based protections and rights are vital.


https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/health/india-witnesses-one-of-the-highest-female-infanticide-incidents-in-the-world-54803

Makes for horrific reading. I wonder do any Indian women or girls try to transition their way out of such horrors?

Cestmoi 111

Sorry I’ve seemingly forgotten how to multiquote.

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Is it? Do you go out of your way to look for this stuff, or do you just come across is often? If it's the former, that is very strange, if its the latter, then you are probably following or know people who are deterimined to influence your view on trans people in a negative way.

Trans issues are headline news a lot of the time. Also I have an interest in women’s rights so that throws up a lot of the issues where the rights of trans people and women clash.

What exact spaces did you visit?
I have trans friends, I follow trans content creators, and this isn't my experience at all. The only time I see this is when right-wingers go out of their way to invade spaces just to mock people.

I lurked in trans spaces on Reddit, Twitter, tumblr and followed links from there to blogs and articles etc. I went looking there in order to get a better understanding of trans people but I did not find these spaces healthy places, to put it mildly.
I have no trans friends. I’m glad to hear that you follow some good trans content creators.

Gruffalux

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

Makes for horrific reading. I wonder do any Indian women or girls try to transition their way out of such horrors?

I don't know. Imagine not. My point is that sex is real and has consequences in the world and always has had.

Cestmoi 111

Gruffalux wrote: »

I don't know. Imagine not. My point is that sex is real and has consequences in the world and always has had.

I know, Dire consequences for many women and girls around the world.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

I don't know. Imagine not. My point is that sex is real and has consequences in the world and always has had.

I don't think it's a surprise to anyone on this thread that men and women are often treated differently. All the issues you raised were about the differing treatment of women compared to men. Not the differing treatment of cis women compared to trans women.

Cestmoi 111

LLMMLL wrote: »

I don't think it's a surprise to anyone on this thread that men and women are often treated differently. All the issues you raised were about the differing treatment of women compared to men. Not the differing treatment of cis women compared to trans women.

That is incredibly tone deaf in the context of the horrific abuse and murder that happens to females in India from birth upwards. Really horribly tone deaf.

LLMMLL

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

That is incredibly tone deaf in the context of the horrific abuse and murder that happens to females in India from birth upwards. Really horribly tone deaf.

Sure. It has nothing to do with trans people. It's a little more tone deaf suggesting that people transition to avoid the negatives of living in societies with poor protections for women.

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

I don't think I have. You never made a point about experience based on "sex". You made a point about "sex based rights" by referencing the crappy things that women face in India that have nothing to do with trans people.

And I don't think anyone on the planet has experience of being aborted So it's a little silly to say trans women will never experience it. Neither will cis women. Not cis men. Not trans men.

Females as a sex are subjected to sex selective abortion in such huge numbers that there is a notable imbalance between numbers of males and females in places like India and China. You may try to make some weird argument that no one was affected but the demographics tell the truth. Infanticide of female children is also practised - perhaps you can feel that fact more than the aborting of foetuses simply because of their femaleness. In most places in the world the normal balance of sexes is 105 female to 100 males but in India it is less than 93 females to 100 males.

The UN State of World Population report for 2020 shows that India accounts for 45.8 million of the world’s 142.6 million “missing females” — girls who went missing at birth — over the past 50 years. How is the slight improvement in the sex ratio to be reconciled with damning evidence that the preference for sons and biased sex selection practices continue to hold firm sway in India? Sex-selective abortion was outlawed years ago, but the implementation of such laws is conveniently lax in a nation that will not even allow girls to be born. Is it any surprise that a 2018 survey showed that India is globally perceived to be the most dangerous country for women? It trumped all other nations on markers such as trafficking as well as cultural and religious practices that include female infanticide, foeticide and child marriage (female genital mutilation and dowry could also be included here). Such embedded gender biases result in a vicious, never-ending cycle. The likelihood of having to pay dowry and the unwillingness to ‘invest’ in education and healthcare for girls contribute to female foeticide; the resultant imbalance in the sex ratio, in turn, is directly proportional to sexual violence and child marriage.

https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/india-accounts-for-45-8-million-of-the-worlds-142-6-million-missing-females/cid/1785510



I am interested in your use of the words trans and cis. Why do you use them?

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

Females as a sex are subjected to sex selective abortion in such huge numbers that there is a notable imbalance between numbers of males and females in places like India and China. You may try to make some weird argument that no one was affected but the demographics tell the truth. Infanticide of female children is also practised - perhaps you can feel that fact more than the aborting of foetuses simply because of their femaleness. In most places in the world the normal balance of sexes is 105 female to 100 males but in India it is less than 93 females to 100 males.



https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/india-accounts-for-45-8-million-of-the-worlds-142-6-million-missing-females/cid/1785510



I am interested in your use of the words trans and cis. Why do you use them?

Well unless you consider a foetus a person (aren't you pro-choice? Pretty sure I've seen you say you are) then nobody has been affected directly. You are talking about living with an experience and it's absolute nonsense to say that cis women could have experienced being aborted. It's not a "weird argument" to point this out.

Why wouldn't I use trans and cis?

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

Well unless you consider a foetus a person (aren't you pro-choice? Pretty sure I've seen you say you are) then nobody has been affected directly. You are talking about living with an experience and it's absolute nonsense to say that cis women could have experienced being aborted. It's not a "weird argument" to point this out.

Why wouldn't I use trans and cis?

The female demographic in India (and other places) lives with the consequence of being devalued due to their natal sex in a range of practices common in the culture around them, from rampant sex selective abortion to female infanticide to forced marriage to child marriage to FGM to gang rape to surrogacy and so on. Huge amounts of sex selective abortion reflects the cultural worth of the female - that lower cultural worth directly affects the whole lives of all those who live as females in such cultures, and especially those from lower classes. This is living with the experience of being a sex accorded lower worth (respect, value, importance, etc.)

As an aside and personally, I do not believe ''nobody'' is affected by abortion. That is not the point here. The point is females are accorded lower worth and a trans woman will not have experienced that as they were socialised from birth as a male.


Why do you use cis and trans?

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

The female demographic in India (and other places) lives with the consequence of being devalued due to their natal sex in a range of practices common in the culture around them, from rampant sex selective abortion to female infanticide to forced marriage to child marriage to FGM to gang rape to surrogacy and so on. Huge amounts of sex selective abortion reflects the cultural worth of the female - that lower cultural worth directly affects the whole lives of all those who live as females in such cultures, and especially those from lower classes. This is living with the experience of being a sex accorded lower worth (respect, value, importance, etc.)

As an aside and personally, I do not believe ''nobody'' is affected by abortion. That is not the point here. The point is females are accorded lower worth and a trans woman will not have experienced that as they were socialised from birth as a male.


Why do you use cis and trans?

I agree with you that women in India have different experiences than men in India and many of these experiences are horrifically negative. Nothing to do with trans women though. For example, you have not grown up in a society where female foetuses are aborted in any specific way. Are you not a woman? If you moved to India would you no longer be a woman because you live in a society where many women have had a different experience to you?

I get that you feel the need to shift the debate away from biology as most people do not really care about chromosomes and gametes and their eyes will glze over.

But trying to pose a universal female experience is as fraught with complications as relying on stereotypes. There is no universal female experience unless you fall back on the experience of having a female body. And then you face the issues that unless you talk about chromosomes and gametes there are no universal experiences of the female.body. And then you are back to your original issue. Nobody experiences chromosomes and nobody cares.

If you want an answer on why I use the terms cis and trans you will have to give some context. It's like asking someone why they use the word "Yes". Ummmmm because?

Vic_08

Gruffalux wrote: »

A trans woman will never be among the 10 million female foetuses aborted in India since the 1990s. They will never have experienced what it is to grow up and be socialised as a female and bear the cultural consequences of a female body.
You have missed the point completely.

The truth of the matter is that on so many fundamental levels a man cannot experience the reality of actually being a woman.

Those who commit fully to Trans; hormones, surgeries, etc and only those who can actually pass in public as a real woman can experience some of the reality of being treated as a woman without the ever-present ability to just change back whn it doesn't suit.

Others though, the dress today, jeans and jacket tomorrow, Eddie Izzard "today I'm in girl mode" self-ID trans, that's just Gender Tourism, no more legitimately Female than a white guy in Blackface is actually experiencing life as a black man.

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

I agree with you that women in India have different experiences than men in India and many of these experiences are horrifically negative. Nothing to do with trans women though. For example, you have not grown up in a society where female foetuses are aborted in any specific way. Are you not a woman? If you moved to India would you no longer be a woman because you live in a society where many women have had a different experience to you?

I get that you feel the need to shift the debate away from biology as most people do not really care about chromosomes and gametes and their eyes will glze over.

But trying to pose a universal female experience is as fraught with complications as relying on stereotypes. There is no universal female experience unless you fall back on the experience of having a female body. And then you face the issues that unless you talk about chromosomes and gametes there are no universal experiences of the female.body. And then you are back to your original issue. Nobody experiences chromosomes and nobody cares.

If you want an answer on why I use the terms cis and trans you will have to give some context. It's like asking someone why they use the word "Yes". Ummmmm because?

Fantastic. You give me the prompt to post this video I watched today specifically because Emma Hilton is in it. She is a developmental biologist. She is with Colin Wright, an evolutionary biologist, and they are speaking with Benjamin Boyce about just the things you mention - specifically gametes. And other factual relevancies of biological life and sex as a binary fact.

Emma is lovely. It is nice to put a face to these supposed monsters and bigots. I think Boyce fell in love with her a little bit going by his giddy compliment at the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygK8HmkOFDY

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

Fantastic. You give me the prompt to post this video I watched today specifically because Emma Hilton is in it. She is a developmental biologist. She is with Colin Wright, an evolutionary biologist, and they are speaking with Benjamin Boyce about just the things you mention - specifically gametes. And other factual relevancies of biological life and sex as a binary fact.

Emma is lovely. It is nice to put a face to these supposed monsters and bigots. I think Boyce fell in love with her a little bit going by his giddy compliment at the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygK8HmkOFDY

Has this got anything to do with the experiences of women in India? I'm not watching a 1 hr video if it is just being used to avoid the points I made.

Vic_08

LLMMLL wrote: »

Well unless you consider a foetus a person (aren't you pro-choice? Pretty sure I've seen you say you are) then nobody has been affected directly.

Who do you think it is getting these abortions? Women, actual, real, pregnant women. Do you really think they all want to abort their babies because they are girls? It's a cultural and economic pressure or often the choice of the husband/family not their own free choice to have the procedure.

Your complete blindness to the simple truth that girls and women have a fundamentally different life from boys and men from birth right through life is actually offensive. Your indifference to any of the aspects of what makes the sexes fundamentally different in order to promote this trans ideology is not a nice inclusive rainbow worldview. It is in fact deeply misogynistic in your willingness to wave away all the injustices and challenges actual women uniquely face across the world as well as completely denying the simple truths about the physical identifiable differences, mental developmental differences and societal differences in the way they are treated and experience the world around them.

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

For example, you have not grown up in a society where female foetuses are aborted in any specific way. Are you not a woman? If you moved to India would you no longer be a woman because you live in a society where many women have had a different experience to you?

Yes, the cultural devaluation of females affects all females who enter that culture and specifically because they are female. It will not affect someone who has been socialised as a male in the same way.
I lived in India for 2 years and experienced a lot of sexual assaults and harassment due to this commonplace cultural perception and devaluation of women and girls. It is not generally a safe place for girls to travel alone in. There are many many fantastic and noble and good Indian people and it is an amazing place, but there is also significant amounts of cultural backwardness in the villages and there are cultural difficulties for women (from anywhere) due to ignorant misogynistic religious misinterpretation, especially re Islam in the North of the country, that devalues women specifically based on their immutable sex.

Gruffalux

Vic_08 wrote: »

Who do you think it is getting these abortions? Women, actual, real, pregnant women. Do you really think they all want to abort their babies because they are girls? It's a cultural and economic pressure or often the choice of the husband/family not their own free choice to have the procedure.

Your complete blindness to the simple truth that girls and women have a fundamentally different life from boys and men from birth right through life is actually offensive. Your indifference to any of the aspects of what makes the sexes fundamentally different in order to promote this trans ideology is not a nice inclusive rainbow worldview. It is in fact deeply misogynistic in your willingness to wave away all the injustices and challenges actual women uniquely face across the world as well as completely denying the simple truths about the physical identifiable differences, mental developmental differences and societal differences in the way they are treated and experience the world around them.

Sometimes I am overwhelmed and even made nervous by the huge misogyny that underlies it all.

Cestmoi 111

F*cking hell this is exactly my issue with trans stuff. You’re only ever a click away from the most bloody offensive thing you could imagine.

Like here we’ve gone from highlighting foeticide, gang rape, denial of education, killing of widows, all as a direct consequence of being female, to one click later...but what about transwomen.
We had one afternoon, maybe 3 posts, of positive stories about trans people, to the same posters now trying to dilute the horrific violence meted out to females in India because won’t someone please think of the poor transwomen.
You honestly couldn’t make it up.