Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Gatling

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Given this poster insists no homosexual child ever comes to any harm thereby completely disregarding the suicide rates among young gay people

Suicide rates among young people are high for many reasons not all of it is to do with bullying or not fitting in with other cultures or family values.

Gruffalux

The UK High Court has recently ruled children under 16 do not have the competence to consent to puberty blockers or cross sex hormones.

Children are procuring hormones illegally online. Gender GP has set up in Spain and refers kids to online appts to get prescriptions.

Dr Thomas Steensma who developed the Dutch Protocol has recently called it experimental and badly in need of proper research. We just do not know the long term effects, he says.

There have been class actions by people seeking awards for long term health damage provably caused by blockers used for precocious puberty.

Puberty blockers do not simply give a breathing space - they retard the entire development of the growing child's body and brain, and specifically re their sexual characteristics - yes, their sexual organs- as the blockers act upon the pituitary gland.

Sweden has halted affirmation treatment. The UK has halted affirmation treatment. In time it will be seen to have for the most part been a terrible experiment that was ideologically driven by gender theory and those who blindly and aggressively support it. Of that I am certain.

Other approaches that do not physically harm the growing body will have to be developed to help all unfortunate children afflicted by gender incongruence. It is a terrible condition. I look forward to that happening - it will need significant effort, investment and time to support these youngsters until they are mature enough to be able to consent to radical treatment if needed.

Lauding celebrity trans kids simply for being "trans", for nothing else, will affect vulnerable confused kids elsewhere who will not have the financial resources to access counselling or supports etc that the celeb kids have.

I do feel very strong empathy for these children who often suffer in other ways, first for their dreadful unhappiness with and alienation from their bodies and then for the experimental medicalisation of their condition that will affect them so profoundly for the rest of their lives. I could go away and let it all happen and say nothing and never think about it and save myself the abuse but I really worry about this. It shocks me. That is why I object continuously to this under-researched treatment of children.

Gruffalux

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Harm caused by mental issues or bullying due to someone's sexuality are not the same as the physical harm caused by puberty blockers/medical intervention to change the body of a child.

This was the point.

You knew this. You are being disingenuous.

Far more than disingenuous even.

Gruffalux

Gruffalux wrote: »

Far more than disingenuous even.

I was trying to be kind

Bannasidhe

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Harm caused by mental issues or bullying due to someone's sexuality are not the same as the physical harm caused by puberty blockers/medical intervention to change the body of a child.

This was the point.

You knew this. You are being disingenuous.

And gender disphorphia doesn't have any mental health implications?

Now we have trans gender children being reduced down to whether or not one course of treatment is recommended by their doctors and feck the studies that show the psychological benefits of such a course of treatment.

It's not about puberty blockers, it's about not believing there are children who know the biological gender is wrong, and disregarding the effect that has on their mental health to emrmagawd.
Where's the ermagagawd about puberty blockers being given to children with early onset puberty?
Or those with short stature?

And I'm being disingenuous?

Bannasidhe

Gruffalux wrote: »

The UK High Court has recently ruled children under 16 do not have the competence to consent to puberty blockers or cross sex hormones.

Children are procuring hormones illegally online. Gender GP has set up in Spain and refers kids to online appts to get prescriptions.

Dr Thomas Steensma who developed the Dutch Protocol has recently called it experimental and badly in need of proper research. We just do not know the long term effects, he says.

There have been class actions by people seeking awards for long term health damage provably caused by blockers used for precocious puberty.

Puberty blockers do not simply give a breathing space - they retard the entire development of the growing child's body and brain, and specifically re their sexual characteristics - yes, their sexual organs- as the blockers act upon the pituitary gland.

Sweden has halted affirmation treatment. The UK has halted affirmation treatment. In time it will be seen to have for the most part been a terrible experiment that was ideologically driven by gender theory and those who blindly and aggressively support it. Of that I am certain.

Other approaches that do not physically harm the growing body will have to be developed to help all unfortunate children afflicted by gender incongruence. It is a terrible condition. I look forward to that happening - it will need significant effort, investment and time to support these youngsters until they are mature enough to be able to consent to radical treatment if needed.

Lauding celebrity trans kids simply for being "trans", for nothing else, will affect vulnerable confused kids elsewhere who will not have the financial resources to access counselling or supports etc that the celeb kids have.

I do feel very strong empathy for these children who often suffer in other ways, first for their dreadful unhappiness with and alienation from their bodies and then for the experimental medicalisation of their condition that will affect them so profoundly for the rest of their lives. I could go away and let it all happen and say nothing and never think about it and save myself the abuse but I really worry about this. It shocks me. That is why I object continuously to this under-researched treatment of children.

I await your campaign on behalf of children with early onset puberty who are prescribed such dangerous drugs.

Bannasidhe

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I was trying to be kind

Not to transgender people you aren't.
I don't need your kindness.

LLMMLL

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I await your campaign on behalf of children with early onset puberty who are prescribed such dangerous drugs.

You'll be waiting a while...

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And gender disphorphia doesn't have any mental health implications?

Now we have trans gender children being reduced down to whether or not one course of treatment is recommended by their doctors and feck the studies that show the psychological benefits of such a course of treatment.

It's not about puberty blockers, it's about not believing there are children who know the biological gender is wrong, and disregarding the effect that has on their mental health to emrmagawd.
Where's the ermagagawd about puberty blockers being given to children with early onset puberty?
Or those with short stature?

And I'm being disingenuous?

I thought saying trans people suffered from a mental illness was transphobia no?

If someone has a medical problem such as early onset puberty and need medical intervention I would judge that the same as a child with tight foreskin recieving a circumcision.

I don't agree with children being given a circumcision for cosmetic purposes.

Giving a child puberty blockers because they or their parents believe they are the opposite sex is morally wrong in my opinion.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I thought saying trans people suffered from a mental illness was transphobia no?

If someone has a medical problem such as early onset puberty and need medical intervention I would judge that the same as a child with tight foreskin recieving a circumcision.

I don't agree with children being given a circumcision for cosmetic purposes.

Giving a child puberty blockers because they or their parents believe they are the opposite sex is morally wrong in my opinion.

Being trans isn't a mental illness.

However many trans people will suffer mentally from issues with family, society etc.

Gruffalux

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I await your campaign on behalf of children with early onset puberty who are prescribed such dangerous drugs.

Any medicine that has harmed or will harm children is unsuitable. Children have been harmed by meds for precocious puberty. That is a problem. As adults some are pursuing damages.
The " trans kids" do not have precocious puberty. If left to wait and see they will have healthy puberty and body development. If treated they will not.
One treatment blocks what is seen as unhealthy precocious activity of glands. The other blocks healthy normal activity of glands. They are not comparable from a treatment point of view.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Being trans isn't a mental illness.

However many trans people will suffer mentally from issues with family, society etc.

As do many non trans people. What's the difference?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Puberty blockers are not exclusively used for children diagnosed with gender dysphoria, they are used for other reasons as well but that does fit the narrative here. Plus when they are prescribed (and a prescription is needed), nor is it a given that they will be prescribed, for a child diagnosed with gender dysphoria the purpose is to buy time for that child to assess their gender identification - again, something that is lost in the noise and faux horror of the ermhagawd wait til you hear what they do to little willies/vaginas posted here.
I assume the outraged are also virulently against puberty blockers being used on children experiencing early on-set puberty but forgot to mention that.
Just as they forgot to mention there are relatively few studies on the long term effects and many of those studies demonstrate the are reasonably save and can and do promote psychological well-being - however they can impact on successful vaginoplasty surgery in later life.

I’m sorry, do you honestly think that people don’t know that puberty blocking drugs have other uses? The fact that using them as puberty-blockers is an OFF-LABEL use means that they are drugs that are used for other things, with the requisite testing done. And it’s been highlighted a lot in this thread that puberty-blocking is an off-label use of the drug. That means that the required testing for that use hasn’t been done, by the way.

All that I have bolded has been discussed on this thread. You are highlighting your own ignorance of the thread by not knowing that.

And the fact that you don’t seem alarmed by there being hardly any studies on such a life-changing use for a drug, as if that’s a positive thing, is chilling. :eek: I and others have talked about the lack of long-term studies (which, again, you’d know if you actually read the thread). Difference is, we are questioning why these drugs are being prescribed when the long-term effects are unknown.

I’m sorry, but the ignorance of your post has really pissed me off. You come in all het up and don’t bother to do your research. Every thread has a search facility. You don’t need to read the entire thread to find the posts.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As do many non trans people. What's the difference?

The main difference is suffering because you are part of a certain group, not because of individual circumstances.

It's the same for any socially marginalized group.

Either way it doesn't change the fact that trans people can suffer mentally without trans being a mental illness. Don't know what you were on about there.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I await your campaign on behalf of children with early onset puberty who are prescribed such dangerous drugs.

I’m not keen on their use for that either as long-term negative effects have been reported. So, in your head, how does this work? Can a person only be against one or the other?

Gruffalux

Lauren Black has written a public letter to the Irish Independent re Panti Bliss (mentioned here earlier). The Independent did not publish it. I believe voices like Laurens should have a public platform. Lauren is co founder of LGB Alliance Ireland.

Dear Sir,

I read the write up of your interview with Rory O’Neil in last week’s Sunday Independent with a sense of growing astonishment. In the first paragraphs, self-pity and entitlement were on full display (shopping at Dunnes, oh the indignity!) But it was the false claims regarding “twitter transphobia” that I found most disingenuous.

I grew up proudly working class, in County Armagh during the troubles. I am a butch lesbian, co-founder of the LGB Alliance Ireland. Last week, Rory, from his Panti Bliss account, claimed that I am supposedly an English transphobe. I am a Northern woman, so you can imagine my feelings being forced to go onto Graham Linehan’s podcast to prove my Irish credentials to the followers of someone calling themselves “Panti Bliss.”

Even this did not stop the onslaught of abuse that was being sent my way by Panti's followers. I was accused (in frankly sectarian terms) of not being Irish enough. My accent was ripped to pieces, as having not spent any “significant part” of my childhood here. I was accused of “penis envy” and told that I should “drop the butch lesbian schtick” and “just transition.” I was accused of being a right-wing racist.

Even when Panti conceded that I am Irish, no apology was issued and no call to stop the abuse was made to the 74,000 followers of the account.

Rory was wrong to call me out for not being Irish, he was wrong to double down, he was wrong not to apologise, and he is wrong again, claiming that he was the victim in what happened when he was, in fact, the instigator.

I responded then, as I respond now. All the nonsense about who is properly Irish is just guff, and xenophobic guff to boot. This is the land of 1,000 welcomes, and there are rightly people who were not born here on all sides of the trans debates.

All of this is a massive distraction from the actual issues. There is a real debate to be had here, about LGB rights, about women’s spaces and women’s sports, about the huge explosion in gender-questioning children, about the medical transition of those children, about what counts as conversion therapy, and about the harms of the affirmation model, even for adults.

I reiterate my call to Rory, for a moderated debate on the actual issues. Let’s get this out in the open, instead of calling down Twitter mobs on false pretences, as Rory did, then crying victim in the Sunday papers when it doesn’t go his way.

Sincerely,

Lauren Black

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I’m not keen on their use for that either as long-term negative effects have been reported. So, in your head, how does this work? Can a person only be against one or the other?

Well yes I would expect anyone who claims they are horrified at the effects of puberty blockers and who claims they have deep concerns for children and this is one of the primary reasons for their anti-trans campaigning to maybe to campaign on its use in precocious puberty as well....

I mean the language used when describing puberty blockers for trans youths is hyper emotional stuff about how HORRIFIED you all are but when it comes to.precocious puberty you are "not keen".

Bit of a difference.

Gatling

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It's not about puberty blockers, it's about not believing there are children who know the biological gender is wrong, and disregarding the effect that has on their mental health to emrmagawd.

We've been told it's nothing to do with mental health despite it being clearly related to mental health illness ,the ones who are telling us puberty blocker's are making children happier are the ones dishing out puberty blocker's or telling vunerable Children how to ask for them , knowing damn well the serious consequences they will have on young childrens physically and mentally.
It's well documented Vs concern parties who likely have contracts with pharmaceutical companies to promote their concoctions

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

Lauren Black has written a public letter to the Irish Independent re Panti Bliss (mentioned here earlier). The Independent did not publish it. I believe voices like Laurens should have a public platform. Lauren is co founder of LGB Alliance Ireland.

Dear Sir,

I read the write up of your interview with Rory O’Neil in last week’s Sunday Independent with a sense of growing astonishment. In the first paragraphs, self-pity and entitlement were on full display (shopping at Dunnes, oh the indignity!) But it was the false claims regarding “twitter transphobia” that I found most disingenuous.

I grew up proudly working class, in County Armagh during the troubles. I am a butch lesbian, co-founder of the LGB Alliance Ireland. Last week, Rory, from his Panti Bliss account, claimed that I am supposedly an English transphobe. I am a Northern woman, so you can imagine my feelings being forced to go onto Graham Linehan’s podcast to prove my Irish credentials to the followers of someone calling themselves “Panti Bliss.”

Even this did not stop the onslaught of abuse that was being sent my way by Panti's followers. I was accused (in frankly sectarian terms) of not being Irish enough. My accent was ripped to pieces, as having not spent any “significant part” of my childhood here. I was accused of “penis envy” and told that I should “drop the butch lesbian schtick” and “just transition.” I was accused of being a right-wing racist.

Even when Panti conceded that I am Irish, no apology was issued and no call to stop the abuse was made to the 74,000 followers of the account.

Rory was wrong to call me out for not being Irish, he was wrong to double down, he was wrong not to apologise, and he is wrong again, claiming that he was the victim in what happened when he was, in fact, the instigator.

I responded then, as I respond now. All the nonsense about who is properly Irish is just guff, and xenophobic guff to boot. This is the land of 1,000 welcomes, and there are rightly people who were not born here on all sides of the trans debates.

All of this is a massive distraction from the actual issues. There is a real debate to be had here, about LGB rights, about women’s spaces and women’s sports, about the huge explosion in gender-questioning children, about the medical transition of those children, about what counts as conversion therapy, and about the harms of the affirmation model, even for adults.

I reiterate my call to Rory, for a moderated debate on the actual issues. Let’s get this out in the open, instead of calling down Twitter mobs on false pretences, as Rory did, then crying victim in the Sunday papers when it doesn’t go his way.

Sincerely,

Lauren Black

So basically he thought she was English. Then corrected his mistake. And......

Im failing to see why the Independent would publish it.

Maybe they could.make it their front page story. What would the headline be:

MAN MISTAKES WOMAN'S NATIONALITY

hold the presses.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

Well yes I would expect anyone who claims they are horrified at the effects of puberty blockers and who claims they have deep concerns for children and this is one of the primary reasons for their anti-trans campaigning to maybe to campaign on its use in precocious puberty as well....

Jesus wept !

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

Well yes I would expect anyone who claims they are horrified at the effects of puberty blockers and who claims they have deep concerns for children and this is one of the primary reasons for their anti-trans campaigning to maybe to campaign on its use in precocious puberty as well....

I mean the language used when describing puberty blockers for trans youths is hyper emotional stuff about how HORRIFIED you all are but when it comes to.precocious puberty you are "not keen".

Bit of a difference.

Precocious puberty blockers have caused lifelong harm. The difference in nuance for my part is in so called affirmation treatment they are given off label to perfectly healthy kids whose glands are working normally. And followed by cross sex hormones in huge doses which does not happen to those suffering precocious puberty. The cases are not comparable.

Gatling

Gruffalux wrote: »

Precocious puberty blockers have caused lifelong harm. The difference in nuance for my part is in so called affirmation treatment they are given off label to perfectly healthy kids whose glands are working normally. And followed by cross sex hormones in huge doses which does not happen to those suffering precocious puberty. The cases are not comparable.

Added if precocious puberty if not stopped or delayed , Will cause a child to go through hyper puberty and menopause between 2 and 20 and many will suffer osteoporosis type diseases of the bones which is horrendous on top of other side effects

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

So basically he thought she was English. Then corrected his mistake. And......

Im failing to see why the Independent would publish it.

Maybe they could.make it their front page story. What would the headline be:

MAN MISTAKES WOMAN'S NATIONALITY

hold the presses.

He made no mistake. It is a tenet of TRA to claim all objection to gender ideology is an import from abroad. Us Irish people being helplessly led astray by fordiners.

I would love to see a public moderated debate between Rory and Lauren with all the issues on the table - it is a great idea. Hope there is follow through now from Rory. Lauren seems quite a shy person, not used to the stage like Rory, so it is brave of her to offer to debate publicly.

Bannasidhe

Gatling wrote: »

We've been told it's nothing to do with mental health despite it being clearly related to mental health illness ,the ones who are telling us puberty blocker's are making children happier are the ones dishing out puberty blocker's or telling vunerable Children how to ask for them , knowing damn well the serious consequences they will have on young childrens physically and mentally.
It's well documented Vs concern parties who likely have contracts with pharmaceutical companies to promote their concoctions

Well done on conflating mental health and mental illness.
Then adding in some big pharma conspiracy for good measure.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

Precocious puberty blockers have caused lifelong harm. The difference in nuance for my part is in so called affirmation treatment they are given off label to perfectly healthy kids whose glands are working normally. And followed by cross sex hormones in huge doses which does not happen to those suffering precocious puberty. The cases are not comparable.

So just to confirm, you are definitely not HORRIFIED at the lifelong harm it has caused in girls with precocious puberty.

What are you? "Not keen" similarly to ODB?

Bannasidhe

Gatling wrote: »

Suicide rates among young people are high for many reasons not all of it is to do with bullying or not fitting in with other cultures or family values.

Where did I say it was?
I specifically referenced LGB young people, plus T but apparently the mental health of the latter can be utterly disregarded.

LLMMLL

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

I have said it before but no problem saying it again, I don’t know any trans people. ZERO.

That’s probably enough of worrying about my wrongthink for now.

Riiiiight so you don't know any trans people but are 100% certain they're all just fetishists because you searched it out online. Great.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

He made no mistake. It is a tenet of TRA to claim all objection to gender ideology is an import from abroad. Us Irish people being helplessly led astray by fordiners.

I would love to see a public moderated debate between Rory and Lauren with all the issues on the table - it is a great idea. Hope there is follow through now from Rory. Lauren seems quite a shy person, not used to the stage like Rory, so it is brave of her to offer to debate publicly.

I'd love to see it too. It would put her nonsense transphobia on display for all to see.

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

So just to confirm, you are definitely not HORRIFIED at the lifelong harm it has caused in girls with precocious puberty.

What are you? "Not keen" similarly to ODB?

I am horrified at any lifelong harm caused to anyone.
It is really bad to see suffering bodies harmed and especially poignant to see previously healthy bodies affected by external human intervention. I know medical intervention is a leading cause of human harm in many areas. All bad.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

I am horrified at any lifelong harm caused to anyone.
It is especially bad to see any healthy bodies affected by external human intervention.

I don't see the thread you started on precocious puberty. Am I missing it.