Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

IAMAMORON

Gruffalux wrote: »

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Note - this study was done on people who had undergone sex reassignment surgery in Sweden. Only 5% of trans people undergo sex reassignment surgery. I think studies are require on post self ID criminal patterns. The female to male increase in pattern may be attributable to use of testosterone - hypothesis. Not enough studies are being done in this area - it is unacceptable science. In the 21st century!!

60 of the 125 trans identifying prisoners in the Uk in 2018 were sex offenders. Note only 5% of people in prison in the UK are women.
I object very strongly to the present distortion of criminological statistics and media reports which sees sex crimes being recorded as committed by women when it was transwomen who committed the crimes eg child pornography, sex abuse etc.

It goes back to the point I have been making all along.

People objecting to transgenders citing a prison population of 60 people as a viable reason to have their rights subjugated. This is more example of citing rare circumstance and pumping up the number as if they are relevant to the argument as a whole.

The prison population of the United Kingdom is around 84,000 persons. Yet people are prepared to use an example of 60 inmates to solidify their arguments around transsexual criminality, why it is an issue and why it requires a difference in opinion as regards transsexual and transgender rights?

By all means have the argument, but bring some relevant statistics to the table for discussion. 60 criminals ( mostly locked up for sex working in many cases, as opposed to your accusation that they are pedophiles), does not give a fair indication of the amount of transsexuals and transgenders having any sort of involvement in crime. it is merely mud slinging disguised as stating facts.

Facts are relevant when the big picture is examined. Using 60 out of a population of 84 thousand is pushing things and lacks relevancy, particularly when you dovetailing your argument with derogatory examples of their crimes.

excludedbin

Gruffalux wrote: »

This statement that trans athletes have been allowed compete by IOC since 2004, leaves out the very relevant fact that the rules changed again in 2015 to allow transgender people who haven't had surgery of any kind to compete. That allows a far greater number of males to compete with women.

If your contention is that "trans women are men" then surgery shouldn't make a difference. (Unless you want to say that surgery does make them women. :pac:) That still leaves eleven years in which those "men" could've dominated the sports.

Yet they haven't. Care to explain that discrepancy?

Eric Cartman

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It goes back to the point I have been making all along.

People objecting to transgenders citing a prison population of 60 people as a viable reason to have their rights subjugated. This is more example of citing rare circumstance and pumping up the number as if they are relevant to the argument as a whole.

The prison population of the United Kingdom is around 84,000 persons. Yet people are prepared to use an example of 60 inmates to solidify their arguments around transsexual criminality, why it is an issue and why it requires a difference in opinion as regards transsexual and transgender rights?

By all means have the argument, but bring some relevant statistics to the table for discussion. 60 criminals ( mostly locked up for sex working in many cases, as opposed to your accusation that they are pedophiles), does not give a fair indication of the amount of transsexuals and transgenders having any sort of involvement in crime. it is merely mud slinging disguised as stating facts.

Facts are relevant when the big picture is examined. Using 60 out of a population of 84 thousand is pushing things and lacks relevancy, particularly when you dovetailing your argument with derogatory examples of their crimes.

of the entire prison population of 83000 thats 0.07% are trans.
Of the entire uk 1% of people had gone through with any kind of transition.
of the entire uk population 0.088% are in prison , so with trans people only being 1% of the uk population 0.07% to 0.088% means trans people are representing about the same level as normal society.

However , when we take only female prisoners , 60 out of 3000 total women prisoners are trans, thats 2% which is a massive over representation.
you would expect 30 transwoman prisoners but the actual figure is double that.

plenty of evidence to suggest it is being used as a way to avoid the hardships of male prison or abuse female prisoners.

Gruffalux

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It goes back to the point I have been making all along.

People objecting to transgenders citing a prison population of 60 people as a viable reason to have their rights subjugated. This is more example of citing rare circumstance and pumping up the number as if they are relevant to the argument as a whole.

The prison population of the United Kingdom is around 84,000 persons. Yet people are prepared to use an example of 60 inmates to solidify their arguments around transsexual criminality, why it is an issue and why it requires a difference in opinion as regards transsexual and transgender rights?

By all means have the argument, but bring some relevant statistics to the table for discussion. 60 criminals ( mostly locked up for sex working in many cases, as opposed to your accusation that they are pedophiles), does not give a fair indication of the amount of transsexuals and transgenders having any sort of involvement in crime. it is merely mud slinging disguised as stating facts.

Facts are relevant when the big picture is examined. Using 60 out of a population of 84 thousand is pushing things and lacks relevancy, particularly when you dovetailing your argument with derogatory examples of their crimes.

There are always going to be small numbers as trans people are a very small percentage of any population. Which begs the question as to why there is such a powerful lobby connected. Personally I feel the ordinary trans person has no desire to be used as a bulwark for deconstructionist ideologies designed to force populations to accept bizarre propositions, such as one's sex physically changes by means of thought, but there you have it. It has a attracted a very vocal lobby who are not trans at all but who use them for activism. Odd people who often seem very annoyed with women - you may have missed that using old, haggard, dried up TERFs etc is a much favoured technique to silence one.

But regardless of small numbers or not one can still draw statistical conclusions. 48% of self identified transpeople in UK prisons in 2018 were sex offenders. Now I think that far more people in prison were trans at the time, but just never pursued the declaration. But even if one halves or quarters the percentage it is still very large compared to the 4% of female prisoners who are sex offenders (128 out of 3239 prisoners approx in 2018 UK). By far the most trans people will never go next near or nigh a prison, just like for most men and women, but among transwomen the sexual offending rates accord more closely to the sexual offending patterns found with males than with females.

Gruffalux

excludedbin wrote: »

If your contention is that "trans women are men" then surgery shouldn't make a difference. (Unless you want to say that surgery does make them women. :pac:) That still leaves eleven years in which those "men" could've dominated the sports.

Yet they haven't. Care to explain that discrepancy?

Surgery and hormones are dreadful for a body to endure and cause terrible harm. Post hormone and surgery people are not going to become Olympians.

CtevenSrowder

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It goes back to the point I have been making all along.

People objecting to transgenders citing a prison population of 60 people as a viable reason to have their rights subjugated. This is more example of citing rare circumstance and pumping up the number as if they are relevant to the argument as a whole.

The prison population of the United Kingdom is around 84,000 persons. Yet people are prepared to use an example of 60 inmates to solidify their arguments around transsexual criminality, why it is an issue and why it requires a difference in opinion as regards transsexual and transgender rights?

By all means have the argument, but bring some relevant statistics to the table for discussion. 60 criminals ( mostly locked up for sex working in many cases, as opposed to your accusation that they are pedophiles), does not give a fair indication of the amount of transsexuals and transgenders having any sort of involvement in crime. it is merely mud slinging disguised as stating facts.

Facts are relevant when the big picture is examined. Using 60 out of a population of 84 thousand is pushing things and lacks relevancy, particularly when you dovetailing your argument with derogatory examples of their crimes.

Are you going to tell us which rights are being subjugated?

And have you got anything to back up your claims that trans-people are in general more passive than the rest of the population?

We're all waiting.

Wibbs

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Facts are relevant when the big picture is examined.

How you with a straight face can say that and at the same time believe that there are women with penises and men with vaginas truly beggars belief. It seems it's not just gender that's fluid, but facts are too.

suicide_circus

Much of the difficult stems from the fact that a trans person's new identity requires the buy in and participation of strangers in order for that identity to be validated.

What ever happened to not relying on others for your self esteem and self worth?

IAMAMORON

Eric Cartman wrote: »

plenty of evidence to suggest it is being used as a way to avoid the hardships of male prison or abuse female prisoners.

In your opinion?

This is quintessential mudslinging by the way and is indicative of your argument so far.

Limpy

All it takes is a Barbie Kardashian for the ****e to hit the fan

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

IAMAMORON wrote: »

In your opinion?

This is quintessential mudslinging by the way and is indicative of your argument so far.

Go up a few posts and read the stats again.

Why don't you like stats?

km991148

Eric Cartman wrote: »

of the entire prison population of 83000 thats 0.07% are trans.
Of the entire uk 1% of people had gone through with any kind of transition.
of the entire uk population 0.088% are in prison , so with trans people only being 1% of the uk population 0.07% to 0.088% means trans people are representing about the same level as normal society.

However , when we take only female prisoners , 60 out of 3000 total women prisoners are trans, thats 2% which is a massive over representation.
you would expect 30 transwoman prisoners but the actual figure is double that.

plenty of evidence to suggest it is being used as a way to avoid the hardships of male prison or abuse female prisoners.

Maybe there is plenty of evidence, but not in your post.

It's possible that your are right. It's also possible that people with gender issues happen to be more involved with the police (for example).

I mean I am sure there are some 'chancers' (for want of a better world) but running the numbers in this way doesn't prove that at all.

IAMAMORON

Wibbs wrote: »

How you with a straight face can say that and at the same time believe that there are women with penises and men with vaginas truly beggars belief. It seems it's not just gender that's fluid, but facts are too.

But this goes back to the age old argument that non transgenders are constantly failing to comprehend?

It is not as simple as being biologically anything. Waving willies around the argument is the same as saying that just because a transgendered man has a penis he is a criminal and wants to get to prison to start raping women? ( I am being massively facetious here so ignore the last bit)

Having a penis or a vagina is a physical and biological fact. But it has no bearing on a transsexuals gender preference, as I said this is what non-transgenders are constantly failing to comprehend. The issue is simply not as simple as man has a penis and a woman has a vagina, it does not work that way.

It takes proper mental tenacity to comprehend this and in many cases causes the most belligerence and conflict in the argument. Sometimes it is easy to just accept it.

It is also not viable to turn around and state that a transsexual with a penis is somehow mentally ill and needs treatment, this is ignorance personified.

It is complex and non transgenders simply have no real understanding of what transgenders feel. So why argue?

jam_mac_jam

Limpy wrote: »

All it takes is a Barbie Kardashian for the ****e to hit the fan

No it doesn't. We will still be told it hardly ever happens, the numbers are too small to talk about. All the usual trotted out.

landofthetree

What's there to debate?

You just declare what gender you are and that's accepted by law.

The debate is over.

FF FG SF Lab Greens SD PBP all agree on this.

Yet they tell us FG are far right.

Vic_08

Sure sign that a position is complete garbage: being unable to tell a troll from a genuine believer.

SouthWesterly

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

Should people be allowed to unilaterally declare themselves to be a gender other than what they were born with? I don't know, it's a difficult one

I don't really care what a person chooses to identify as, but there needs to be a conversation had around biological-female only spaces, and if that offends people then I don't really care about that - that also extends to sports.

Should we allow a person who grew up male, went through a biologically "normal" puberty and then began to identify as female access to a sports field with biological females? Even with HRT their bodies will have developed differently. Can a person with such a huge advantage even derive pride from winning under such circumstances?

Am I a TERF for even typing that? I don't think so, and I believe anyone using that term to shout down opinion they don't want aired to be doing it for that reason, and that reason only.

At the same time, should we allow a person who grew up female access to sports where they are likely to be pummelled unmercifully because they now identify as male? Again, I don't think so.

It's not really that difficult.
A baby is born with male or female genes. It's born with male or female reproductive organs.


If its male it comes down on one side of the above, if female, the other.

Really not that difficult.

Gruffalux

Weird experience. I clicked by accident on page one of this thread and was really taken aback at the number of thanks the third post got - I had been labouring under the belief that my general take on this subject was a horrific minority opinion considered bigoted by polite modern society! I think I have been called names too many times and had taken it to heart! :pac:

GarIT

The people who claim there are more than 2 genders usually do so on the basis that gender is a social construct. If gender is a social construct there are no genders and sex is the only thing that matters and how we should categorise people if we are going to do that at all.

GarIT

The real reason gender exists is as an easy way to identify people. If you say someone is a man traditionally you could have narrowed that down to half the people. Now if that's going to be blurred why do we need that concept at all?

If we need something to identify people sex would be more useful in most cases.

bewareofthedog

The most ardent denier will pose the question "Why are we mainstreaming delusion?".

I'll focus on this question, "Why are we mainstreaming deception?".

By this I mean human nature is a thing, and if history has taught us anything about the human race it's that people will cheat, lie, steal and do anything to get ahead of others.

I do believe that there is people out there that believe they are the wrong gender, my qualm is not with these people. I believe that a significant portion of the trans community are not acting in good faith - there can be multiple reasons for this. For e.g.

Social outcasts - People want to join a protected class and see it as an opportunity to fit in and make friends

Sports - Can't compete with their own gender so decide to cheat instead

Power - Some people like to control others

Goth/trendy - Some like to revel in the weirdness of it all

Money - It's been well documented how many in the trans community feel disconnected from the hard line activists

You could probably find dozens of reasons but those are some of the obvious ones.

This is the point I'm trying to make - even though I know I'm male there is absolutely nothing stopping me from going down to the doctors in the morning and walking out with a certificate proclaiming me to be not male, but female. This not only effects my own standing, but for example immediately puts additional pressure on work colleagues etc.

This is a massive problem, anyone, for any reason, nefarious or not, can change their sex with the blink of an eye without any checks or bounds. Repeating myself, but human nature is a thing and it cannot be blindly trusted.

Wibbs

IAMAMORON wrote: »

But this goes back to the age old argument that non transgenders are constantly failing to comprehend?

Nope. Reality/Not Reality. It's pretty simple.

Having a penis or a vagina is a physical and biological fact. But it has no bearing on a transsexuals gender preference, as I said this is what non-transgenders are constantly failing to comprehend. The issue is simply not as simple as man has a penis and a woman has a vagina, it does not work that way.

Yep it does, except where there is a congenital fault or condition in play such as can be the case with intersex folks. No such fault or condition has been found in Trans folks as far as I'm aware.

And being biologically male or female has huge differences going on from the very DNA all the way up. The genders are remarkably different.

It takes proper mental tenacity to comprehend this and in many cases causes the most belligerence and conflict in the argument. Sometimes it is easy to just accept it.

Yeah, just accept unproven nonsense. Eh nope. Mental tenacity indeed.

It is also not viable to turn around and state that a transsexual with a penis is somehow mentally ill and needs treatment, this is ignorance personified.

It's actually a valid question and one that is asked. Trans individuals are checked out by mental health specialists as it is. It's only very recently Trans was seen as a type of dysmorphia and as far as the diagnostics for that condition it still fits pretty well and that's before we get to the host of other developmental and mental conditions that are far higher in Trans folks than background. Depression and anxiety is understandable, but autism? Which is up to eight times higher in Trans individuals

It is complex and non transgenders simply have no real understanding of what transgenders feel. So why argue?

Because blind acceptance of unproven claims on a few levels means you don't end up teasing out further facts that may help.

And that's before the feelings themselves. I'm a man, I don't know what it feels to be A Man(tm). I know what it feels to be me, but that's about it. That would feel different if I were another man, a Gay man, a Woman, a Gay woman. I've no idea what it feels like to be a Gay man and in the vast majority of other aspects we'd be pretty similar. I don't know what it's like to be say a Straight Chinese bloke. No real clue. If I had come to the notion in childhood that I felt different and I was actually feeling like a Chinese boy of the same age, I'd be dragged to a shrink in short order. But apparently if I had said I'm actually a girl, that's more logical?

And that's before we get to the credo for almost all of those eager to be so progressive is that being a woman or man is a social construct. Yet on the other hand it's also so innate that a biological girl at ten can feel/know she's actually a he. How does that work? You can't have it both ways. Indeed innate gender differences actually support being Trans. Gender is a social construct does not.

volchitsa

IAMAMORON wrote: »

But this goes back to the age old argument that non transgenders are constantly failing to comprehend?

It is not as simple as being biologically anything. Waving willies around the argument is the same as saying that just because a transgendered man has a penis he is a criminal and wants to get to prison to start raping women? ( I am being massively facetious here so ignore the last bit)

Having a penis or a vagina is a physical and biological fact. But it has no bearing on a transsexuals gender preference, as I said this is what non-transgenders are constantly failing to comprehend. The issue is simply not as simple as man has a penis and a woman has a vagina, it does not work that way.

It takes proper mental tenacity to comprehend this and in many cases causes the most belligerence and conflict in the argument. Sometimes it is easy to just accept it.

It is also not viable to turn around and state that a transsexual with a penis is somehow mentally ill and needs treatment, this is ignorance personified.

It is complex and non transgenders simply have no real understanding of what transgenders feel. So why argue?

So how does a person with a penis who has always been treated as male know what women feel? He doesn't feel happy as a man, sure. But how can he know that means he is a woman?

Edit: I see Wibbs has made the same point before me, in a lot more detail. Apols.

IAMAMORON

volchitsa wrote: »

So how does a person with a penis who has always been treated as male know what women feel? He doesn't feel happy as a man, sure. But how can he know that means he is a woman?

Edit: I see Wibbs has made the same point before me, in a lot more detail. Apols.

I never said I I am in a position to understand how transsexuals or transgendered persons feel or how they associate their gender or their lives. I am non transgender so I would never dare to question their own existence. Although I will strive to empathise with it.

As I keep iterating time and time again, non transgenders simply have no notion of what it feels like. Which begs the obvious question of why they feel they should have such strong feelings against it?

If you don't know what you are arguing against how can you possibly have a valid argument? It is akin to sexual discrimination which homosexuals received in the past.

It is so easy to isolate the general dissension amongst posters. The same mantra remains, about 50 odd cheating sportspersons are the odd unique example of a raving psychotic in an asylum in the UK basically being used as the anti liberal sniggering icon of a Guardian journalist hell bent on creating some sort of divisive political debate.

Whereas the answer is and should be that humans have the right the express their own gender and other persons don't have the right to enforce a gender upon them.

ingalway

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I never said I I am in a position to understand how transsexuals or transgendered persons feel or how they associate their gender or their lives. I am non transgender so I would never dare to question their own existence. Although I will strive to empathise with it.

As I keep iterating time and time again, non transgenders simply have no notion of what it feels like. Which begs the obvious question of why they feel they should have such strong feelings against it?

If you don't know what you are arguing against how can you possibly have a valid argument? It is akin to sexual discrimination which homosexuals received in the past.

It is so easy to isolate the general dissension amongst posters. The same mantra remains, about 50 odd cheating sportspersons are the odd unique example of a raving psychotic in an asylum in the UK basically being used as the anti liberal sniggering icon of a Guardian journalist hell bent on creating some sort of divisive political debate.

Whereas the answer is and should be that humans have the right the express their own gender and other persons don't have the right to enforce a gender upon them.

Just as you have no idea how it feels to be a transgender person, although you do speak about it an awful lot, a trans identifying male has no idea how it feels to be a woman

IAMAMORON

ingalway wrote: »

a trans identifying male has no idea how it feels to be a woman

How could you possibly know?

AllForIt

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I never said I I am in a position to understand how transsexuals or transgendered persons feel or how they associate their gender or their lives. I am non transgender so I would never dare to question their own existence. Although I will strive to empathise with it.

As I keep iterating time and time again, non transgenders simply have no notion of what it feels like. Which begs the obvious question of why they feel they should have such strong feelings against it?

If you don't know what you are arguing against how can you possibly have a valid argument? It is akin to sexual discrimination which homosexuals received in the past.

I don't know why you think we need to know exactly what it feels like. We can fully understand what they want, it's not that difficult. No man needed to know what if feels like to be sexually attracted to a man to vote yes to gay marriage. So you are making too much of a big deal of this 'don't know what if feels like' thing as if that's a reason to just blanket agree with everything one has no personal experience of. And anyway the bone of contention is mainly where rights overlap, not that anyone is saying it's not acceptable to be transgender.

Vic_08

ingalway wrote: »

Just as you have no idea how it feels to be a transgender person, although you do speak about it an awful lot, a trans identifying male has no idea how it feels to be a woman

If a white person wears clothes, uses language or references associated primarily with black culture, or god forbid goes blackface or uses "nigga" in casual conversation they are guilty of cultural appropriation and in the latter two are fit for nothing but complete deletion from polite society.

But if anyone decides on a whim to identify themselves as the opposite gender they are not to be questioned in any way about their claim to fully inhabit the sex they have self-identified as and those of that sex are to unquestioning accept this person as one of their own no matter what negative effects it has on them.

Yep, makes perfect sense.

Gruffalux

IAMAMORON wrote: »

How could you possibly know?

Can you go back and carefully read the first paragraphof your last post and then try to ask that question again?

Vic_08

IAMAMORON wrote: »

How could you possibly know?

Denying a direct equivalent to what you just posted.

Yep, definitely trolling.