Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

I don't see the thread you started on precocious puberty. Am I missing it.

your fasteners are popping with all your over-stretching this evening...

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

I'd love to see it too..

Great to find one point upon which we agree.

Bannasidhe

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I thought saying trans people suffered from a mental illness was transphobia no?

If someone has a medical problem such as early onset puberty and need medical intervention I would judge that the same as a child with tight foreskin recieving a circumcision.

I don't agree with children being given a circumcision for cosmetic purposes.

Giving a child puberty blockers because they or their parents believe they are the opposite sex is morally wrong in my opinion.

Again conflating mental health with mental illness... almost like there is an agenda at play here.
Early onset puberty is not necessarily a strictly medical issue but it can be a psychological one when a, for example, a 9 year old experiences menses and other physical changes at an age they are not mentally prepared for it. Having periods in primary school is a deeply unpleasant experience, one I myself experienced. On occasions Doctors will recommend puberty blockers for mental health (not mental illness) reasons. The exact same puberty blockers sometimes prescribed for children with gender dysphoria for the same mental health reasons. To buy time until the child has more emotional maturity and is better able to psychologically cope with changes in their body.

Circumcision has nothing to do with this.

Bannasidhe

LLMMLL wrote: »

So basically he thought she was English. Then corrected his mistake. And......

Im failing to see why the Independent would publish it.

Maybe they could.make it their front page story. What would the headline be:

MAN MISTAKES WOMAN'S NATIONALITY

hold the presses.

He thought she was English as she used the phrase "throwing a Paddy" to describe having an uncontrolled temper tantrum. Bizarrely Rory found it hard to fathom that an Irish person would use such a racially charged expression.
He was then accused of being lesbophobic and a misogynist by an academic who ironically also called him a bully.

It would seem the real victims of transphobia are the transphobes to paraphrase someone or other.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

I’m still shocked at a forum member presenting the fact that there are scant long-term studies about puberty blockers as a good thing. It’s a bad thing. And here’s the awkward question - how would one even ethically perform those long-term studies without children being needlessly put at risk? Seriously, I’m all ears.

suicide_circus

Is the belief that there exists a conflict of interest when it comes to some womens and trans rights in itself transphobic?

Bannasidhe

Gatling wrote: »

Added if precocious puberty if not stopped or delayed , Will cause a child to go through hyper puberty and menopause between 2 and 20 and many will suffer osteoporosis type diseases of the bones which is horrendous on top of other side effects

Yeah.
No.
Child will not go through menopause between 2 and 20 or any of the other stuff you claim.
I'm living proof you are incorrect.

Puberty aged 9.
Menopause aged 50. It wasn't even an unpleasant menopause. Hotflushes were a bit much but apart from that it was grand.
Never broke a bone in my life.

Whole family of early puberty women in fact. In my generation alone that's 15 women just on my (early puberty) Mother's side. What you claim will happen hasn't happened to any of us. Are we the statistically anomalies or are you talking utter poop?

Gruffalux

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Again conflating mental health with mental illness... almost like there is an agenda at play here.
Early onset puberty is not necessarily a strictly medical issue but it can be a psychological one when a, for example, a 9 year old experiences menses and other physical changes at an age they are not mentally prepared for it. Having periods in primary school is a deeply unpleasant experience, one I myself experienced. On occasions Doctors will recommend puberty blockers for mental health (not mental illness) reasons. The exact same puberty blockers sometimes prescribed for children with gender dysphoria for the same mental health reasons. To buy time until the child has more emotional maturity and is better able to psychologically cope with changes in their body.

Circumcision has nothing to do with this.

And do they follow up at 14 - 16 with massive doses of testosterone? And as for an increasing number of girls a mastectomy at 16 - 18 years old?
Note - Most children given puberty blockers as part of affirmation protocols go on to cross sex hormones. Most not given affirmation treatment desist.

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I’m still shocked at a forum member presenting the fact that there are scant long-term studies about puberty blockers as a good thing. It’s a bad thing. And here’s the awkward question - how would one even ethically perform those long-term studies without children being needlessly put at risk? Seriously, I’m all ears.

Sorry where did she say a lack of studies is a good thing?

Bannasidhe

Gruffalux wrote: »

And do they follow up at 14 - 16 with massive doses of testosterone? And as for an increasing number of girls a mastectomy at 16 - 18 years old?
Note - Most children given puberty blockers as part of affirmation protocols go on to cross sex hormones. Most not given affirmation treatment desist.

So now it's not the puberty blockers as such that are the issue... it's what happens when they stop the puberty blockers.

Riiiiiiight.

Gruffalux

suicide_circus wrote: »

Is the belief that there exists a conflict of interest when it comes to some womens and trans rights in itself transphobic?

Yes.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

suicide_circus wrote: »

Is the belief that there exists a conflict of interest when it comes to some womens and trans rights in itself transphobic?

Frequently presented as transphobic, yes. At least in newspaper opinion columns and across social media. Publications where I have seen this accusation: The Guardian, the New York Times and the Washington Post.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So now it's not the puberty blockers as such that are the issue... it's what happens when they stop the puberty blockers.

Riiiiiiight.

Bannasidhe, have you read this thread? You seem incredibly green. Gruffalux has talked about this before, a number of times. I suspect you might have me on ignore and fine. But at least others can see me making this point.

Gruffalux

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So now it's not the puberty blockers as such that are the issue... it's what happens when they stop the puberty blockers.

Riiiiiiight.

Both Bannasidhe. It is a bad thing to do to vulnerable kids from start to finish.

LLMMLL

Just to clarify this is the section Bannasidhe wrote that ODB thinks is saying a lack of studies is a good thing

Just as they forgot to mention there are relatively few studies on the long term effects and many of those studies demonstrate the are reasonably save and can and do promote psychological well-being - however they can impact on successful vaginoplasty surgery in later life.

How on Earth anyone can think the above is saying a lack of studies is a good thing is beyond me.

All Bannasidhe said was that there are few studies but the ones that exist say they are reasonably safe.

I guess it's ok for us to just make up what other posters have written now.

Bannasidhe

LLMMLL wrote: »

Sorry where did she say a lack of studies is a good thing?

If that she is me I didn't.

I simply pointed out that not many studies have been done ( although the anti side post dire warnings as if there's reams of evidence to support them) and the small amount of data available shows evidence of psychological benefits.

For the record I usually think a lack of studies is not a good thing, but in order for there to be studies children with gender dysphoria would need to be prescribed puberty blockers and... well... studied, so I'll probably be accused of wanting to use children as Guinea pigs next.

Funny old world eh.

Gruffalux

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So now it's not the puberty blockers as such that are the issue... it's what happens when they stop the puberty blockers.

Riiiiiiight.

But do they? In your generational anecdotes of your tribes menarches and menopauses was there massive doses of testosterone ever involved?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Bannasidhe wrote: »

How a trans child may or may not cope with puberty and/or gender dysphoria can and does vary between individuals - as does indeed being about to cope with being homosexual. There is no cut and dried one size fits all so I, for one, believe the people best placed to assess each individual are those health care specialists caring for the individual.
I do not think anonymous posters lacking medical experience waving an ideological pitchfork are qualified.

Puberty blockers are not exclusively used for children diagnosed with gender dysphoria, they are used for other reasons as well but that does fit the narrative here. Plus when they are prescribed (and a prescription is needed), nor is it a given that they will be prescribed, for a child diagnosed with gender dysphoria the purpose is to buy time for that child to assess their gender identification - again, something that is lost in the noise and faux horror of the ermhagawd wait til you hear what they do to little willies/vaginas posted here.
I assume the outraged are also virulently against puberty blockers being used on children experiencing early on-set puberty but forgot to mention that.
Just as they forgot to mention there are relatively few studies on the long term effects and many of those studies demonstrate the are reasonably save and can and do promote psychological well-being - however they can impact on successful vaginoplasty surgery in later life.

I notice in your efforts to shoehorn puberty blockers into your response to me (despite I clearly saying I am neither for nor against and believe it is best left to medical professionals) that you ignored the point I actually made - as have others - is that the language used by transphobes is the same language used by homophobes to justify their bigotry so perhaps those who insist Gay and Trans have nothing to do with each other at all at all at all should ask the transphobes why the employ the same language as the homophobes.

So yes, what I wrote about is deja poo. What you responded had nothing to do with the post where I called it deja poo.

Does this strike anybody as a negative commentary on the lack of long-term studies on puberty blockers? Does it strike anyone as a neutral comment on the lack of long-terms studies on puberty blockers? The comment is at best neutral by my reading.

I will also reiterate that the lack of long-term studies on the use of these drugs as puberty blockers has been brought up in this thread a number of times, except the people discussing it recognised how unethical it is to give ill-researched (for that purpose) drugs to preteens. And let’s not obfuscate here - if halting puberty is the goal, these will save been prescribed to preteens. Bannasidhe might be hoping that people won’t read back so I urge people to look for yourselves.

Gruffalux

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Does this strike anybody as a negative commentary on the lack of long-term studies on puberty blockers? Does it strike anyone as a neutral comment on the lack of long-terms studies on puberty blockers? The comment is at best neutral by my reading.

I will also reiterate that the lack of long-term studies on the use of these drugs as puberty blockers has been brought up in this thread a number of times, except the people discussing it recognised how unethical it is to give ill-researched (for that purpose) drugs to preteens. And let’s not obfuscate here - if halting puberty is the goal, these will save been prescribed to preteens. Bannasidhe might be hoping that people won’t read back so I urge people to look for yourselves.

Indeed.

Bannasidhe

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Bannasidhe, have you read this thread? You seem incredibly green. Gruffalux has talked about this before, a number of times. I suspect you might have me on ignore and fine. But at least others can see me making this point.

I don't have you on ignore, I simply ignore people who so obviously desperately misrepresent what I have said.

I have read G's thoughts on puberty blockers across many threads and how horrific they are and the damage they cause when prescribed to children with gender dysphoria. She has posted in graphic detail.
Haven't seen her get worked up about the same drugs being prescribed to children for reasons other than gender dysphoria and I was wondering why that is.
You might consider that is me being green.
I might consider that the sudden scramble to call me green and address me politely by my user name in such a friendly manner (green comment notwithstanding) is because my current line of questioning has ye a bit frit.

Cestmoi 111

LLMMLL wrote: »

You're obviously not familiar with her previous work if you took that joke seriously.

I see cis women every day of the week that could be described as caricatures of women due to the (in many cases surgical) enhancement of stereotypical femijine featureS.

I also hear cis women all the time refer to certain behaviours and associate them with their own feelings of femininity. In fact a cis woman I know recently told how she had a "girly" night by getting all dressed up for a zoom call in lockdown. Do you have an issue with cis women saying things like this?

You still haven't answered how many trans women you actually know. I think we can safely conclude the answer is ZERO.

You're obviously not familiar with her previous work if you took that joke seriously.

I’m not familiar with this person in any other capacity. Why did they include that clip in their coming out as trans video?

I see cis women every day of the week that could be described as caricatures of women due to the (in many cases surgical) enhancement of stereotypical femijine featureS.

I also hear cis women all the time refer to certain behaviours and associate them with their own feelings of femininity. In fact a cis woman I know recently told how she had a "girly" night by getting all dressed up for a zoom call in lockdown. Do you have an issue with cis women saying things like this?

No issue with a woman saying she had a girly night but I can’t in any way conflate that with what I watched in the video... unless of course she was claiming that she actually BECAME a girl that night?

You still haven't answered how many trans women you actually know. I think we can safely conclude the answer is ZERO.
I have said it before but am very happy to say it again, I don’t know any trans people. ZERO.

That’s probably enough of worrying about my wrongthink for now.

Bannasidhe

Gruffalux wrote: »

But do they? In your generational anecdotes of your tribes menarches and menopauses was there massive doses of testosterone ever involved?

I'll just phone all my cousins and ask for their medical history because some women on the internet is Horrified by one set of children getting drugs but not a different set of children getting the same drugs shall I?

You built your argument upon puberty blockers not me.
I said I preferred to leave such things up to medical experts.

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

Just to clarify this is the section Bannasidhe wrote that ODB thinks is saying a lack of studies is a good thing



How on Earth anyone can think the above is saying a lack of studies is a good thing is beyond me.

All Bannasidhe said was that there are few studies but the ones that exist say they are reasonably safe.

I guess it's ok for us to just make up what other posters have written now.

How on earth can anyone in good conscience casually accept that there have been relatively few studies done on a novel medical treatment that will cause many of the children who are receiving it to be sterilised?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If that she is me I didn't.

I simply pointed out that not many studies have been done ( although the anti side post dire warnings as if there's reams of evidence to support them) and the small amount of data available shows evidence of psychological benefits.

For the record I usually think a lack of studies is not a good thing, but in order for there to be studies children with gender dysphoria would need to be prescribed puberty blockers and... well... studied, so I'll probably be accused of wanting to use children as Guinea pigs next.

Funny old world eh.

Yes, because that’s what it is. In a way, I find your honesty bracing here. It’s better than the people who ran away from the thread when asked about this. Why do you usually object to lack of studies but make an exception here? Even the Tavistock clinic admitted that suicide risk is low. So for what reason are you okay with it?

And again, that prescribing children these drugs is treating them like guinea pigs has already been discussed on this and other threads.

CtevenSrowder

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'll just phone all my cousins and ask for their medical history because some women on the internet is Horrified by one set of children getting drugs but not a different set of children getting the same drugs shall I?

You built your argument upon puberty blockers not me.
I said I preferred to leave such things up to medical experts.

No, you went further and said such things shouldn't even be discussed in public.

Gruffalux

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'll just phone all my cousins and ask for their medical history because some women on the internet is Horrified by one set of children getting drugs but not a different set of children getting the same drugs shall I?

You built your argument upon puberty blockers not me.
I said I preferred to leave such things up to medical experts.

Puberty blockers used on perfectly healthy bodies to retard their development is QUALITATIVELY DIFFERENT than puberty blockers used as a last resource in a disease condition. I had an inkling you were an academic - this is analyses 101 level.

Bannasidhe

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Does this strike anybody as a negative commentary on the lack of long-term studies on puberty blockers? Does it strike anyone as a neutral comment on the lack of long-terms studies on puberty blockers? The comment is at best neutral by my reading.

I will also reiterate that the lack of long-term studies on the use of these drugs as puberty blockers has been brought up in this thread a number of times, except the people discussing it recognised how unethical it is to give ill-researched (for that purpose) drugs to preteens. And let’s not obfuscate here - if halting puberty is the goal, these will save been prescribed to preteens. Bannasidhe might be hoping that people won’t read back so I urge people to look for yourselves.

Yup.
Yez are rattled about the drugs being prescribed for early onset puberty as that doesn't fit the ermagawd puberty blockers are totes always bad m' kay narrative.

But sure, attack the person who merely pointed out the lack of studies. That really shows how caring ya'll are.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't have you on ignore, I simply ignore people who so obviously desperately misrepresent what I have said.

I have read G's thoughts on puberty blockers across many threads and how horrific they are and the damage they cause when prescribed to children with gender dysphoria. She has posted in graphic detail.
Haven't seen her get worked up about the same drugs being prescribed to children for reasons other than gender dysphoria and I was wondering why that is.
You might consider that is me being green.
I might consider that the sudden scramble to call me green and address me politely by my user name in such a friendly manner (green comment notwithstanding) is because my current line of questioning has ye a bit frit.

Well, I’m also against them for early onset puberty. That’s the other use for children, right?

You have made it seem like people have brought up these topics as if nobody ever brought them up before and that we are now simply grasping for things to criticise. I want anyone new to thread or passing by to know that they have been at the forefront throughout the thread.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yup.
Yez are rattled about the drugs being prescribed for early onset puberty as that doesn't fit the ermagawd puberty blockers are totes always bad m' kay narrative.

But sure, attack the person who merely pointed out the lack of studies. That really shows how caring ya'll are.

You’re right. I AM rattled about these drugs being used. Got it in one.

The idea of a cancer drug that even (cancer-stricken) grown men struggle with being given to physically healthy children (whether for early onset puberty or gender dysphoria) is a travesty. Cancer drugs are incredibly potent. I was rendered infertile by them very quickly.

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Does this strike anybody as a negative commentary on the lack of long-term studies on puberty blockers? Does it strike anyone as a neutral comment on the lack of long-terms studies on puberty blockers? The comment is at best neutral by my reading.

I will also reiterate that the lack of long-term studies on the use of these drugs as puberty blockers has been brought up in this thread a number of times, except the people discussing it recognised how unethical it is to give ill-researched (for that purpose) drugs to preteens. And let’s not obfuscate here - if halting puberty is the goal, these will save been prescribed to preteens. Bannasidhe might be hoping that people won’t read back so I urge people to look for yourselves.

It was a completely neutral comment. It's actually baffling how you read from that that Bannasidhe is happy about the lack of studies. She simply said that others do not.point it out.

She has now explicitly said she thinks more long term studies would be a good thing and your still standing by your misreading of her post?