Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

How on earth can anyone in good conscience casually accept that there have been relatively few studies done on a novel medical treatment that will cause many of the children who are receiving it to be sterilised?

What do you mean by accept? You're using it as if it means something positive.

I accept that few studies have been done. But that I am pointing out a fact. In no way am I suggesting that it is a good thing. I'm all for long term studies on this topic.

Yet I can still point out that few have been done. And accept the fact.

It's really an insane reading of what Bannasidhe wrote.

Gruffalux

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yup.
Yez are rattled about the drugs being prescribed for early onset puberty as that doesn't fit the ermagawd puberty blockers are totes always bad m' kay narrative.

But sure, attack the person who merely pointed out the lack of studies. That really shows how caring ya'll are.

Im not rattled. I am baking bread which has me up past my usual hour for beauty sleep Nor does anyone else appear to be rattled. And you are the person who has attacked people all day on the thread. Called people sweetie sarcastically, described them as obnoxious, disgustingly said I use children as objects in my ideological war, used transphobe and homophobe many times. Struck out with some ermagagawd weird thing for a while. Perhaps a nice spot of bread baking might help...

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

Im not rattled. I am baking bread which has me up past my usual hour for beauty sleep Nor does anyone else appear to be rattled. And you are the person who has attacked people all day on the thread. Called people sweetie sarcastically, described them as obnoxious, disgustingly said I use children as objects in my ideological war, used transphobe and homophobe many times. Struck out with some ermagagawd weird thing for a while. Perhaps a nice spot of bread baking might help...

Ah now for someone who said I view children as collateral damage.....

People in glass houses Comes to mind

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Ah now for someone who said I view children as collateral damage.....

People in glass houses Comes to mind

Oh and that my fasteners were going to come undone. Forgot that one.

Bannasidhe

LLMMLL wrote: »

It was a completely neutral comment. It's actually baffling how you read from that that Bannasidhe is happy about the lack of studies. She simply said that others do not.point it out.

She has now explicitly said she thinks more long term studies would be a good thing and your still standing by your misreading of her post?

To muddy the waters.

The whole complex area of medical ethics where benefits and risks have to be carefully considered and weighed against each other because few medical treatments are risk free or without side effects is being reduced down to bickering about what Bannasidhe didn't actually say.

Bannasidhe says generally the more medical studies the better, however Bannasidhe recognizes that when the subjects are children it is an ethical minefield, and that goes not just for puberty blockers but for cancer treatments, and indeed any experimental treatments for chronic conditions.
Don't try can mean no advances.
No advances can mean children will die who could have been saved.

I'm sure those tasked with medical ethics appreciate the absolutism of some posters here in determining the correct course of treatment for a particular group of children.

Cestmoi 111

The difference in the culture around the prescription of puberty blockers in children with precocious puberty compared to those who claim to be trans, can’t be ignored. There are thousands of posts and articles online pushing and campaigning for the use of puberty blockers in children who claim to be trans, and so many messages coaching the children on exactly what to say to ensure they’ll be prescribed them.
There is a clear Join Us, Join Us ethos in the trans movement that encourages children to begin the process of medical transitioning.

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

Ah now for someone who said I view children as collateral damage.....

People in glass houses Comes to mind

I accept. You can have one free insult on the house.

I do think it very strange that people will defend so vehemently any experimental and potentially sterilising treatment on children that affects them so profoundly while knowing and admitting there has been far too little research done on it. I would be mortified to admit that given the weight of the matter.

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

Oh and that my fasteners were going to come undone. Forgot that one.

That was a good one. I was admiring your fabulous stretching.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

I accept. You can have one free insult on the house.

I do think it very strange that people will defend so vehemently any experimental and potentially sterilising treatment on children that affects them so profoundly while knowing and admitting there has been far too little research done on it. I would be mortified to admit that given the weight of the matter.

I don't defend them vehemently. I encourage long term studies and trust in medical professionals to make the calls.

There are major issues with laypeople interpreting scientific results. For example, trans children are found to have lower bone density BEFORE they start puberty blockers. It's been posited that this is because of a lack of physical exercise. I think when people post their interpretation of the supposed awful science behind puberty blockers they are not debating in good faith and I have issues with that.

I also support laypeople taking legal action if they fee the need to. I believe the courts can make reasonable decisions.

But the interpretation of scientific results and the application legal principles isn't a layperson issue.

Cestmoi 111

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Given this poster insists no homosexual child ever comes to any harm thereby completely disregarding the suicide rates among young gay people due to homophobic families/cultures, not to mention the lingering mental issues caused by internalised homophobia, I am beginning to suspect children are just objects in their ideological war.

I think it’s very obvious that Gruffalux has deep and genuine concerns about children who are medically transitioned, due to the experimental nature of the medications and procedures and the inevitable negative side effects thereof.
I’ve no doubt that we all here can (please) think of the children and each have our own concerns about them, but I think the posters who are pro the transitioning of children are playing fast, loose and dangerously with children’s health. Thankfully the pushback against this has started in some countries.

.anon.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I do believe that he will be vindicated on a lot of the points that he has made. However, I suspect it will come at a personal and professional cost for him. His comedic legacy is assured but I think his future career will be affected.

It's been a very long time since he did anything funny - probably because he's been too busy obsessively arguing online. It looks like the personal cost of his crusade against trans people has been immense though. His wife left him.

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/full-text-of-my-house-of-lords-statement?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&utm_source=twitter

LLMMLL

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

I think it’s very obvious that Gruffalux has deep and genuine concerns about children who are medically transitioned, due to the experimental nature of the medications and procedures and the inevitable negative side effects thereof.
I’ve no doubt that we all here can (please) think of the children and each have our own concerns about them, but I think the posters who are pro the transitioning of children are playing fast, loose and dangerously with children’s health. Thankfully the pushback against this has started in some countries.

And there'll be pushback against the pushback. It doesn't really mean anything.

I think what the trans youth services in England needed was actual funding but realistically this was never going to happen.

LLMMLL

.anon. wrote: »

It's been a very long time since he did anything funny - probably because he's been too busy obsessively arguing online. It looks like the personal cost of his crusade against trans people has been immense though. His wife left him.

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/full-text-of-my-house-of-lords-statement?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&utm_source=twitter

He could probably use this thread to find a new wife. I could suggest some perfect matches for him.

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

I don't defend them vehemently. I encourage long term studies and trust in medical professionals to make the calls.

There are major issues with laypeople interpreting scientific results. For example, trans children are found to have lower bone density BEFORE they start puberty blockers. It's been posited that this is because of a lack of physical exercise. I think when people post their interpretation of the supposed awful science behind puberty blockers they are not debating in good faith and I have issues with that.

I also support laypeople taking legal action if they fee the need to. I believe the courts can make reasonable decisions.

But the interpretation of scientific results and the application legal principles isn't a layperson issue.

Long term paediatric studies should not take place ad hoc and in vivo.
Plus at present it is noted by senior people in the field that record keeping, research and follow up is woeful in gender clinics This is disgraceful given the long term effects that are known on children, such as infertility.

You do not get to decide IF I am debating in good faith. I know I am.

Oddly I happen to think you also believe yourself to be debating in good faith and I accept that. I just think your opinion is wrong and choose to argue against it because I think the subject is very important.

My opinion is your tacit support of this experimental treatment is completely wrong, especially as you (being a scientist) know it is ill researched.

It should be declared wrong by all right thinking people so that we can stop harming now and start helping. If small in vitro trials are needed they will have to be pursued under very strict research conditions, with no subjective bias, and for sufficiently long to accurately document the long term effects. This has not happened.

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

He could probably use this thread to find a new wife. I could suggest some perfect matches for him.

Maybe he wants a husband

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

Long term paediatric studies should not take place ad hoc and in vivo.
Plus at present it is noted by senior people in the field that record keeping, research and follow up is woeful in gender clinics This is disgraceful given the long term effects that are known on children, such as infertility.

You do not get to decide IF I am debating in good faith. I know I am.

Oddly I happen to think you also believe yourself to be debating in good faith and I accept that. I just think your opinion is wrong and choose to argue against it because I think the subject is very important.

My opinion is your tacit support of this experimental treatment is completely wrong, especially as you (being a scientist) know it is ill researched.

It should be declared wrong by all right thinking people so that we can stop harming now and start helping. If small in vitro trials are needed they will have to be pursued under very strict research conditions, with no subjective bias, and for sufficiently long to accurately document the long term effects. This has not happened.

No actually I don't agree with the above.

I believe medical professionals and the courts are best placed to make these decisions.

If I was to just accept your interpretation of science I.woukd have believed that puberty blockers we're certain to stunt the bone density of children permanently. I did a little research on this at the weekend and immediately found that the papers noted the bone density of children was already low before taking blockers.

If you can't interpretat the evidence fully and fairly, I'm not going to row in behind your belief that puberty blockers are some kind of horror science experiment.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

Maybe he wants a husband

*Shudder*

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gruffalux wrote: »

I accept. You can have one free insult on the house.

I do think it very strange that people will defend so vehemently any experimental and potentially sterilising treatment on children that affects them so profoundly while knowing and admitting there has been far too little research done on it. I would be mortified to admit that given the weight of the matter.

I was stunned.

Though like I said, the honesty was refreshing. Beats obfuscation or avoidance.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

.anon. wrote: »

It's been a very long time since he did anything funny - probably because he's been too busy obsessively arguing online. It looks like the personal cost of his crusade against trans people has been immense though. His wife left him.

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/full-text-of-my-house-of-lords-statement?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&utm_source=twitter

Well, his comedy legacy is so rich and deep that it doesn’t matter. His place in the pantheon is assured. The work he has done is still mostly critically acclaimed. A few ludramons like to pretend he had nothing to do with Ted and the likes. Most people don’t care though.

That’s a shame about his separation though not entirely surprising. At least you haven’t gloated about it unlike many #bekind proponents on Twitter.

GreeBo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yup.
Yez are rattled about the drugs being prescribed for early onset puberty as that doesn't fit the ermagawd puberty blockers are totes always bad m' kay narrative.

Do you see a difference between limbs being amputated due to gangrene Vs limbs being amputated because the person wants them removed?

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I was stunned.

Though like I said, the honesty was refreshing. Beats obfuscation or avoidance.

So stunned that you completely misrepresented what Bannasidhe said?

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, his comedy legacy is so rich and deep that it doesn’t matter. His place in the pantheon is assured. The work he has done is still mostly critically acclaimed. A few ludramons like to pretend he had nothing to do with Ted and the likes. Most people don’t though.

That’s a shame about his separation though not entirely surprising. At least you haven’t gloated about it unlike many #bekind proponents on Twitter.

I still enjoy Father Ted and the IT Crowd has its moments.

Doesn't change the fact that he's a nut though.

Cestmoi 111

LLMMLL wrote: »

He could probably use this thread to find a new wife. I could suggest some perfect matches for him.

Well I can’t be one cos I apparently am him!!

LLMMLL

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

Well I can’t be one cos I apparently am him!!

I think his perfect match is probably himself so it could be a match made in heaven.

Cestmoi 111

LLMMLL wrote: »

Riiiiight so you don't know any trans people but are 100% certain they're all just fetishists because you searched it out online. Great.

Before I respond to this, could more seasoned boards users please advise me on the etiquette of posting something that I received in a PM? It’s nothing about the sender, it’s a comment they made about me.

Bannasidhe

LLMMLL wrote: »

I don't defend them vehemently. I encourage long term studies and trust in medical professionals to make the calls.

There are major issues with laypeople interpreting scientific results. For example, trans children are found to have lower bone density BEFORE they start puberty blockers. It's been posited that this is because of a lack of physical exercise. I think when people post their interpretation of the supposed awful science behind puberty blockers they are not debating in good faith and I have issues with that.

I also support laypeople taking legal action if they fee the need to. I believe the courts can make reasonable decisions.

But the interpretation of scientific results and the application legal principles isn't a layperson issue.

I neither condemn nor defend as I am neither qualified to make sweeping medical judgements or personally involved in any discussion with a medical practitioner where such a course of treatment is being considered.

I imagine in some cases they are appropriate and in other cases they are not. Either way the consent is not mine to give or deny.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

All Bannasidhe said was that there are few studies but the ones that exist say they are reasonably safe.

What like kinda studies released by the tavistock ( we all know how they work )

Bannasidhe

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

Before I respond to this, could more seasoned boards users please advise me on the etiquette of posting something that I received in a PM? It’s nothing about the sender, it’s a comment they made about me.

I would strongly advise against posting a PM. If it's inappropriate/insulting you can, however, report it.

LLMMLL

Cestmoi 111 wrote:

I’m not familiar with this person in any other capacity. Why did they include that clip in their coming out as trans video?

Um did you actually watch the video? Her first clip is of her ripping up a twilight book. Nothing to do with trans issues. The video contained various clips of her previous videos. You just want to interpret this particular clip as a commentary on trans people to further your agenda.

No issue with a woman saying she had a girly night but I can’t in any way conflate that with what I watched in the video... unless of course she was claiming that she actually BECAME a girl that night?

She mostly says she was expressing her gender identity. What's the issue with that. Can you point me to a timestamp on the video where you have an issue with what she says. I think you're grasping at straws here.

Bannasidhe

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you see a difference between limbs being amputated due to gangrene Vs limbs being amputated because the person wants them removed?

Do you see the difference between lemons and oranges?