Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

GreeBo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

To muddy the waters.

The whole complex area of medical ethics where benefits and risks have to be carefully considered and weighed against each other because few medical treatments are risk free or without side effects is being reduced down to bickering about what Bannasidhe didn't actually say.

Bannasidhe says generally the more medical studies the better, however Bannasidhe recognizes that when the subjects are children it is an ethical minefield, and that goes not just for puberty blockers but for cancer treatments, and indeed any experimental treatments for chronic conditions.
Don't try can mean no advances.
No advances can mean children will die who could have been saved.

I'm sure those tasked with medical ethics appreciate the absolutism of some posters here in determining the correct course of treatment for a particular group of children.

Well since many posters advocate a wait and see approach rather than life changing procedures on toddlers, and/or that it should be dealt with as a psychological rather than medical issue, I'm not quite sure where you are coming from.

Relating cancer treatments to transitioning is just bizarre. Who is dying from not transitioning as a toddler exactly?

If this is all so cut and dried and as obvious as you seem to believe, why are the stats so skewed?
Why aren't there far more mature adults coming out as trans, like we saw with gay people?
Why do so many detransition, compared to gay people?
Why does trans occur in clusters of teens, totally different then with gays?
Where have all the trans people been hiding for the prior 300 years?

CtevenSrowder

LLMMLL wrote: »

No Gatling you are completely incorrect. You have just misunderstood what I've posted in the thread. I've explicitly said many times before that self declaration is not a deciding factor.

That's what you believe I believe. It's not what I believe. You are aware of the difference right?

GreeBo wrote: »

What is the deciding factor then?

Was this ever answered? I'm still no the wiser.

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

Well since many posters advocate a wait and see approach rather than life changing procedures on toddlers, and/or that it should be dealt with as a psychological rather than medical issue, I'm not quite sure where you are coming from.

Relating cancer treatments to transitioning is just bizarre. Who is dying from but transitioning as a toddler exactly?

If this is all so cut and dried and as obvious as you seem to believe, why are the stats so skewed?
Why aren't there far more mature adults coming out as trans, like we saw with gay people?
Why do so many detransition, compared to gay people?
Why does trans occur in clusters of teens, totally different then with gays?
Where have all the trans people been hiding for the prior 300 years?

I think any reasonable person can answer those questions simply.

There is nothing linking homosexuality with trans people. Some trans people might be gay, but that has nothing to do with the gender dysphoria they have.

If people conflate paedophilic tendencies with homosexuality, they are rightly admonished as the two have nothing on common apart from some paedophiles are attracted to the same sex. That does not mean in any way that paedophilic issues are lumped in with gay issues.

(For clarity, I'm not conflating paedophelia and trans, I am merely showing that neither have anything to do with homosexuality)

CtevenSrowder

Deleted User wrote: »

I think any reasonable person can answer those questions simply.

There is nothing linking homosexuality with trans people. Some trans people might be gay, but that has nothing to do with the gender dysphoria they have.

If people conflate paedophilic tendencies with homosexuality, they are rightly admonished as the two have nothing on common apart from some paedophiles are attracted to the same sex. That does not mean in any way that paedophilic issues are lumped in with gay issues.

(For clarity, I'm not conflating paedophelia and trans, I am merely showing that neither have anything to do with homosexuality)

it's quite telling that the clarification at the end is required, because we all know what would happen if it wasn't included. A bit like how my question of whether male sex offenders should be housed with females was labelled 'transphobic', and shock, wasn't answered!

GreeBo

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Was this ever answered? I'm still no the wiser.

Nope, at least not in any way that I would call an answer. It was certainly replied to!

GreeBo

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

it's quite telling that the clarification at the end is required, because we all know what would happen if it wasn't included. A bit like how my question of whether male sex offenders should be housed with females was labelled 'transphobic', and shock, wasn't answered!

Pft, just because they say they arent linking them, its not impossible that they do indeed link them and just say they dont. (Based on previous posts in this thread by others!)

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

Some trans people might be gay, but that has nothing to do with the gender dysphoria they have.

I think its quite possible that a number of impressionable young people would rather be seen as trans than gay, simply due to the apparent popularity and forced acceptance of trans people.

I've yet to see anything conclusive that shows its not "just" a psychological condition. If there was something conclusive this thread wouldnt even exist.

GreeBo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The link is Stonewall.

Does anyone else think it strange that the banner on the Stonewall page reads
"Ban Conversion Therapy" yet they are fighting for the right for children to convert from one gender to the other?

This baffles me I have to say.

suicide_circus

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you see the difference between lemons and oranges?

Are women lemons and transwomen oranges?

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

Are women lemons and transwomen oranges?

What's an apple?

CtevenSrowder

Deleted User wrote: »

What's an apple?

Is it an apple if it identifies as one but doesn't declare it?

Gruffalux

suicide_circus wrote: »

Are women lemons and transwomen oranges?

Becuz we is bitter and sharp but make a nice pie?

Bannasidhe

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Why are you talking in Third person?

Forget which account you were signed in to?

Not at all.
I decided that since it became a thing to discuss what Bannasidhe had or hadn't said I didn't want to confuse the all ready mistaken by saying 'I' - actually I tried that and it's didn't work.

Gatling

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Is it an apple if it identifies as one but doesn't declare it?

What if the apple is a pineapple is it still a an apple ???

Bannasidhe

GreeBo wrote: »

Indeed I do.
I also see the similarities.

Now that that's out of the way, can you answer my question please?
It was a pretty simple example of how the exact same procedure, the exact same, can be valid or invalid depending on the reason for it.
Hopefully you can see how this relates to the two uses of hormones in children that has been brought up on this thread?

Then you see the similarities between:
a) a child diagnosed with early onset puberty who is prescribed puberty blockers to slow the changes to their body for psychological reasons - generally to buy the time to develop more emotional maturity.
b) a child diagnosed with gender dysphoria who is prescribed puberty blockers to slow the changes to their body for psychological reasons - generally to buy the time to develop more emotional maturity..

and what you want to compare it with with is

c) a child who is diagnosed with nothing whatsoever and is not in need of some time to develop emotional maturity.

By comparing what you deem to be necessary and cosmetic medical procedures you are in effect saying that one of those children in a/b is 'cosmetic' and has no medical diagnosis. We all know which child you mean.

Essentially, you are claiming that diagnosis of gender dysphoria are 'cosmetic' and the prescription by doctors of puberty blockers in all cases is unnecessary.

May I ask did you study psychology and medicine concurrently or are you a psychiatrist? I ask as your seem to definitive in your pronouncements.

Gatling

Gatling wrote: »

What if the apple is a pineapple is it still a an apple ???

Depends on whether you also have a pen.

Bannasidhe

GreeBo wrote: »

Relating cancer treatments to transitioning is just bizarre. Who is dying from not transitioning as a toddler exactly?

Transitioning toddlers?

These ones? https://teaching2and3yearolds.com/secrets-to-handling-transitions-with-toddlers-in-classroom/

These one's? https://www.thechaosandtheclutter.com/archives/transition-strategies-for-kids

I'm only playing with you. I know you mean these one's: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/01/young-trans-children-know-who-they-are/580366/

And that 'transitioning' is not quite the term for what is going on when children are enabled to not conform to the norms set for their biological gender.
It is the term for what some of the children go on to do later in life - but not all of them.

I'm going to need some evidence that toddlers have transitioned tbh.

LLMMLL

GreeBo wrote: »

Where have all the trans people been hiding for the prior 300 years?

Seriously? In hiding. Just like all the gay people were.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think any reasonable person can answer those questions simply.

There is nothing linking homosexuality with trans people. Some trans people might be gay, but that has nothing to do with the gender dysphoria they have.

If people conflate paedophilic tendencies with homosexuality, they are rightly admonished as the two have nothing on common apart from some paedophiles are attracted to the same sex. That does not mean in any way that paedophilic issues are lumped in with gay issues.

(For clarity, I'm not conflating paedophelia and trans, I am merely showing that neither have anything to do with homosexuality)

It's really not that hard to understand. Nobody is saying trans people and gay people are the same. We are saying that attitudes towards them have similarities, that their social.experiences have similarities etc.

For instance take the argument I just responded to in my previous post:

Greebo wonders where trans people have been for the last 300 years, presumably to imply it's a new made.up fashionable thing that doesn't really exist.

Now this argument can be easily dismissed as if it.made sense then it could equally be applied to gay people. It's not that being gay and being trans are the same thing. It's that if being less visible 300 years ago implies something for trans people, it surely implies the same for other groups who were less visible 300 years ago. So by Greebo's reasoning gay people are also just.engaging in a temporary trend because their friends are. All that struggle and self doubt in our teen years was all just for lols I guess.

CtevenSrowder

Gatling wrote: »

What if the apple is a pineapple is it still a an apple ???

Hold on whilst I get my table of exemplars out.

Cestmoi 111

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Well it was quite a long winded way to say yes:pac:

Would you accept a a convicted sex offender who is a transwomen into your women only space? I'll guess it's a no (correct me if I'm wrong).

As such, why do you think it is acceptable to put then in another women's only space such as a women's prison?

And please, if your refrain is going to be the factually incorrect 'because trans-women are women', then just like this message and we won't waste eachothers time.

I also wonder where the line in the sand is for the fervent trans supporters on this thread and elsewhere. Apart from committing actual crime, is there Nothing in the whole trans rights debates that rubs the wrong way? And of course while the committing of the crime may be condemned, putting the violent and sexually deviant male perpetrator in a women’s prison isn’t condemned and neither is the counting and reporting of the crime as that of a female.
On the other side of the debate in this thread, I have seen posters call out and condemn Glinner’s behaviour and some of Magdalen Berns’ words.

But I don’t think I’ve seen the unquestioning trans supporters admit there could even be the slightest possibility of a problem with trans identified males taking up places on women’s shortlists; saying they’re better women than actual women could ever be; organising online pile ons and constantly telling TERFs, aka women, to choke on their dicks; erasure of the word ‘women’ from medical literature; cancellation and intimidating protests against women who want to discuss women’s rights; the no debate mantra and now known tactics of trying to push through policies and legislation without discussion or visibility (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists); male cross-dressers in changing rooms with women and girls; children being pushed online to transition; males competing against girls in contact sports. I mean I could go on and on and onnnn.

It’s really not a good look to blindly support everything trans people do without even considering that there might be some genuine reasons for the pushback and concerns that other people have about it.

Cestmoi 111

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Hold on whilst I get my table of exemplars out.

:D

Bannasidhe

LLMMLL wrote: »

Seriously? In hiding. Just like all the gay people were.

Like Dr James Barry of Cork died 1865 which is when it was discovered Dr Barry was born biologically female.

Thomas Baty died 1954. International lawyer based at the Japanese Imperial court. In 1909 Baty published a science fiction book containing transgender characters.

Lucy Hicks Anderson born 1886.

Albert Cashier born 1843.

Chevalier d'Eon born 1728

Lili Elbe born 1882

Catalina de Erauso born 1585/95

LLMMLL

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

I also wonder where the line in the sand is for the fervent trans supporters on this thread and elsewhere. Apart from committing actual crime, is there Nothing in the whole trans rights debates that rubs the wrong way? And of course while the committing of the crime may be condemned, putting the violent and sexually deviant male perpetrator in a women’s prison isn’t condemned and neither is the counting and reporting of the crime as that of a female.
On the other side of the debate in this thread, I have seen posters call out and condemn Glinner’s behaviour and some of Magdalen Berns’ words.

But I don’t think I’ve seen the unquestioning trans supporters admit there could even be the slightest possibility of a problem with trans identified males taking up places on women’s shortlists; saying they’re better women than actual women could ever be; organising online pile ons and constantly telling TERFs, aka women, to choke on their dicks; erasure of the word ‘women’ from medical literature; cancellation and intimidating protests against women who want to discuss women’s rights; the no debate mantra and now known tactics of trying to push through policies and legislation without discussion or visibility (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists); male cross-dressers in changing rooms with women and girls; children being pushed online to transition; males competing against girls in contact sports. I mean I could go on and on and onnnn.

It’s really not a good look to blindly support everything trans people do without even considering that there might be some genuine reasons for the pushback and concerns that other people have about it.

I have considered whether anti-trans people have genuine reasons for their "pushback". I'm just not sure i'd call transphobia a "genuine" reason.

Bannasidhe

LLMMLL wrote: »

It's really not that hard to understand. Nobody is saying trans people and gay people are the same. We are saying that attitudes towards them have similarities, that their social.experiences have similarities etc.

For instance take the argument I just responded to in my previous post:

Greebo wonders where trans people have been for the last 300 years, presumably to imply it's a new made.up fashionable thing that doesn't really exist.

Now this argument can be easily dismissed as if it.made sense then it could equally be applied to gay people. It's not that being gay and being trans are the same thing. It's that if being less visible 300 years ago implies something for trans people, it surely implies the same for other groups who were less visible 300 years ago. So by Greebo's reasoning gay people are also just.engaging in a temporary trend because their friends are. All that struggle and self doubt in our teen years was all just for lols I guess.

The concept of two minorities persecuted and marginalised for failure to conform to accepted social norms might find common cause and ally to advocate for change seems difficult for some to grasp.
Perhaps that's what happens when one is part of the majority.

It also seems to cause confusion that not all the members of the section of that alliance which has achieved some measure of equality is not prepared to throw the other section under the bus.

Bannasidhe

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

But I don’t think I’ve seen the unquestioning trans supporters admit there could even be the slightest possibility of a problem with trans identified males taking up places on women’s shortlists; saying they’re better women than actual women could ever be; .

Read that highlighted bit and see if you can work out why no trans ally will agree to that.

LLMMLL

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The concept of two minorities persecuted and marginalised for failure to conform to accepted social norms might find common cause and ally to advocate for change seems difficult for some to grasp.
Perhaps that's what happens when one is part of the majority.

It also seems to cause confusion that not all the members of the section of that alliance which has achieved some measure of equality is not prepared to throw the other section under the bus.

Absolutely. I see direct analogues in my experience of being gay in the 90s/00s to current trans experience. I was assumed to be a paedophile, assumed to have bizarre kinks, assumed to be attracted to and secretly trying to bed every single straight man in existence, etc.

CtevenSrowder

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The concept of two minorities persecuted and marginalised for failure to conform to accepted social norms might find common cause and ally to advocate for change seems difficult for some to grasp.
Perhaps that's what happens when one is part of the majority.

Ofcourse, this logic falls down when one realises that not no-one here is in favour of trans people being 'persecuted', and their are many people who are part of the minority that have issues with the current TRA dogma.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It also seems to cause confusion that not all the members of the section of that alliance which has achieved some measure of equality is not prepared to throw the other section under the bus.

You are more than happy to throw women in prison under the bus, and women in sports under the bus. You are aware transwomen (male) inmates have sexually assaulted female inmates in prison right?

But said sex offenders wouldn't be welcome in your women's space. But sure as long as your ok, right.

Are you aware that women have lost out on sports scholarships and medals in sports won instead by males who have natural athletic advantage? Why is it acceptable to throw these women under the bus?

Cestmoi 111

LLMMLL wrote: »

I have considered whether anti-trans people have genuine reasons for their "pushback". I'm just not sure i'd call transphobia a "genuine" reason.

I agree transphobia isn’t a genuine reason. Can you see any areas of concern?

What about the constant calling out of gay and lesbians as being transphobes and genital fetishists because they like to date the same sex?

Cestmoi 111

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Read that highlighted bit and see if you can work out why no trans ally will agree to that.

The trans person, if they were being polite, will have said that transwomen are better than cis women, I use different language. If they weren’t being polite, they have all sorts of vile words they use for women when making this statement.