Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Like Dr James Barry of Cork died 1865 which is when it was discovered Dr Barry was born biologically female.

Thomas Baty died 1954. International lawyer based at the Japanese Imperial court. In 1909 Baty published a science fiction book containing transgender characters.

Lucy Hicks Anderson born 1886.

Albert Cashier born 1843.

Chevalier d'Eon born 1728

Lili Elbe born 1882

Catalina de Erauso born 1585/95

7. That's quite a lot

Now, how many people can you name that lived that weren't trans

Gatling

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Like Dr James Barry of Cork died 1865 which is when it was discovered Dr Barry was born biologically female.

But hid her gender to get into university at the time ,that doesn't mean she was actually transgender quite the opposite

Chevalier d'Eon was a spy and former soldier who infiltrated a foreign court and was believed to be intersex rather than trans

Lili wasn't that the Danish girl movie


Catalina de Erauso it's highly the debatable they were trans at all it's widely accepted she was lesbian

LLMMLL

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

I agree transphobia isn’t a genuine reason. Can you see any areas of concern?

What about the constant calling out of gay and lesbians as being transphobes and genital fetishists because they like to date the same sex?

No it's not constant. I have yet to meet a lesbian who has been told this. And as for gay men, I can tell you if it happens then it is incredibly rare. I am active on the main gay dating app. There are a few trans women and 1 trans man (that ive seen) in Dublin. I've never been told by any of them or anybody else that I have to sleep with them. Neither has anyone I know and I know a LOT of gay men and quite a few lesbians.

If it was constant surely I would know ONE gay person who has experienced it.

The issue is that you only hang out in online spaces that reinforce your beliefs.

I have ACTUAL experience that directly contradicts your beliefs.

Gruffalux

Precocious puberty occurs in approx 0.02% of children. 1 in 5000. It has health implications beyond the psychological such as much shorter stature. If the effects were solely psychological then therapy would likely be a better treatment as it does not adversely impact the body.

When treatment is chosen for precocious puberty it is closely monitored every 1 to 3 months. Many advise that treatment should be discontinued at 11 years old. There is no purpose to go beyond that age. The purpose of this treatment is to briefly halt the hormonal changes and then allow healthy puberty to resume as soon as possible, usually within 12 to 18 months of stopping blockers.

Almost all gender dysphoric kids given puberty blockers progress to cross sex hormones. This is the research findings.
Between 80 to 95% of children not given puberty blockers for dysphoria will desist from.dysphoric feelings as puberty progresses and they will settle into their native sex.
I have seen it written that nascent homosexuality may manifest first in a child as gender dysphoria or confusion. Eg here -https://www.thecut.com/2016/07/whats-missing-from-the-conversation-about-transgender-kids.html

To make any equivalence between these treatment paths is not to compare like with like. The first fully intends to stop the blockers as soon as is feasible and usually when the child is still very young. The other stunts the child's development until 14 or 16 years old before giving cross sex hormones which almost inevitably leads to lifelong dependence on artificial hormones, with all the difficult health consequences that follow including sterility, compromised sexual potency, and usually further medicalisation as a consequence of the hormones effects on the bodys organs.

LLMMLL

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

The trans person, if they were being polite, will have said that transwomen are better than cis women, I use different language. If they weren’t being polite, they have all sorts of vile words they use for women when making this statement.

What trans person? What are you even talking about now?

Cestmoi 111

LLMMLL wrote: »

No it's not constant. I have yet to meet a lesbian who has been told this. And as for gay men, I can tell you if it happens then it is incredibly rare. I am active on the main gay dating app. There are a few trans women and 1 trans man (that ive seen) in Dublin. I've never been told by any of them or anybody else that I have to sleep with them. Neither has anyone I know and I know a LOT of gay men and quite a few lesbians.

If it was constant surely I would know ONE gay person who has experienced it.

The issue is that you only hang out in online spaces that reinforce your beliefs.

I have ACTUAL experience that directly contradicts your beliefs.

Glad to hear you and your friends haven’t experienced that irl. I am surprised though. There’s loads of articles and videos about it and as I said before, I have lesbian friends who got abuse on lesbian dating apps for not dating transpeople. Actually there was an article on Medium by a member of Teni who said something along these lines.

Bannasidhe

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Ofcourse, this logic falls down when realises that not noone is in favour of trans people being 'persecuted', and their are many people who are part of the minority that have issues with the current TRA dogma.


You are more than happy to throw women in prison under the bus, and women in sports under the bus. You are aware transwomen (male) inmates have sexually assaulted female inmates in prison right?

But said sex offenders wouldn't be welcome in your women's space. But sure as long as your ok, right.

Are you aware that women have lost out on sports scholarships and medals in sports won instead by males who have natural athletic advantage? Why is it acceptable to throw these women under the bus?

I would consider being forced to live with an incorrect gender identity is to be prosecution in the exact same way as being forced to live as heterosexual is prosecution.
I would consider that should one use public toilet facilities appropriate to one's identified gender is to risk physical violence is the same as then threatened for being cis butch and in the women's toilets.

Seeking to deny a person or minority group of people their preferred identity just because you don't approve is the very definition of prosecution.

Why isn't anyone so worked up about the cis female sex offenders in women's prisons? All the bluster about two transwomen who are accompanied by two guards at all times when they are in communal spaces but not a word about that.
As as for that claim highlighted - unless you can provide proof of that I'm just gonna have to assume that's an unsubstantiated lie.
Here is an article on the increase in cis female sex offenders being sent to prison in Ireland https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1043986220936116

How many of them do you think are accompanied by prison guards at all times when in a communal area?

Once again, like with the puberty blockers faux ermahgawd, the issue isn't the danger posed by convicted sex offenders in prison, it is focused only on transgender women.

As for throwing sports women under the bus - gee, I didn't realise transwomen were just sweeping the boards across sports and swooping up all the medals and stuff until I googled it and found out that they aren't (I actually already knew this tbh).

I'm beginning to wonder if you are just making nasty stuff up about a very small minority group (around 500 people have availed of gender recognition in Ireland in the last 6 years) which is damaging to public perception of them as you don't like them.

Surely not? That would be persecution.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

7. That's quite a lot

Now, how many people can you name that lived that weren't trans

If I was to list them all the mods would get cross.

But you go ahead and list all the people in the majority.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

It's really not that hard to understand. Nobody is saying trans people and gay people are the same. We are saying that attitudes towards them have similarities, that their social.experiences have similarities etc.

For instance take the argument I just responded to in my previous post:

Greebo wonders where trans people have been for the last 300 years, presumably to imply it's a new made.up fashionable thing that doesn't really exist.

Now this argument can be easily dismissed as if it.made sense then it could equally be applied to gay people. It's not that being gay and being trans are the same thing. It's that if being less visible 300 years ago implies something for trans people, it surely implies the same for other groups who were less visible 300 years ago. So by Greebo's reasoning gay people are also just.engaging in a temporary trend because their friends are. All that struggle and self doubt in our teen years was all just for lols I guess.

You are conflating a sexual preference to transgenderism. They are nothing alike and non comparable. Before we get onto your post can you please answer the below so I know where you stand and so we aren't going around in circles.

Deleted User wrote: »

Is a trans woman a female?

If not, what is a female?

Is sex and gender the same thing?

Is it possible to be a male woman? If not why not?

Why does you knowing trans people give you credence?

Sounds very like "I can't be racist, I have black friends".

I know trans people, most of them are dick heads, not because they are trans, but because they are dick heads. Doesn't mean I can conclusively state that trans people are mostly dickheads based on my limited experience.

LLMMLL

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

Glad to hear you and your friends haven’t experienced that irl. I am surprised though. There’s loads of articles and videos about it and as I said before, I have lesbian friends who got abuse on lesbian dating apps for not dating transpeople. Actually there was an article on Medium by a member of Teni who said something along these lines.

The same lesbian friends who are uncomfortable using an app that has trans women on it. That think the very presence of a small number of trans women make an app, and i quote you, "unusable"?

They are hardly giving you an unbiased account of these Apps. I have already shown how they led you to believe there were far more trans women on the Her app than there actually are. You were unable to provide a scintilla of evidence to back up their claims even though it would be quite simple.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I would consider being forced to live with an incorrect gender identity is to be prosecution in the exact same way as being forced to live as heterosexual is prosecution.
I would consider that should one use public toilet facilities appropriate to one's identified gender is to risk physical violence is the same as then threatened for being cis butch and in the women's toilets.

Seeking to deny a person or minority group of people their preferred identity just because you don't approve is the very definition of prosecution.

Why isn't anyone so worked up about the cis female sex offenders in women's prisons? All the bluster about two transwomen who are accompanied by two guards at all times when they are in communal spaces but not a word about that.
As as for that claim highlighted - unless you can provide proof of that I'm just gonna have to assume that's an unsubstantiated lie.
Here is an article on the increase in cis female sex offenders being sent to prison in Ireland https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1043986220936116

How many of them do you think are accompanied by prison guards at all times when in a communal area?

Once again, like with the puberty blockers faux ermahgawd, the issue isn't the danger posed by convicted sex offenders in prison, it is focused only on transgender women.

As for throwing sports women under the bus - gee, I didn't realise transwomen were just sweeping the boards across sports and swooping up all the medals and stuff until I googled it and found out that they aren't (I actually already knew this tbh).

I'm beginning to wonder if you are just making nasty stuff up about a very small minority group (around 500 people have availed of gender recognition in Ireland in the last 6 years) which is damaging to public perception of them as you don't like them.

Surely not? That would be persecution.

You don't get to choose or self identify your sex or your biology no more than you can choose to identify as a different age, a bird or as a millionaire. You are free to do so if you wish, but nobody should be compelled to let you into a crèche, an aviary or a yach club accordingly. To state reality and fact is not persecution.

And again you are conflating homosexuality with transgenderism.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You are conflating a sexual preference to transgenderism. They are nothing alike and non comparable. Before we get onto your post can you please answer the below so I know where you stand and so we aren't going around in circles.

I've answered all them extensively in previous threads. Literal back and forth on the definitions of female.and women for at least a month. I'm not going over it again.

I am not conflating the two. I am conflating the experience of the two. And I am doing so because they are similar. You don't seem to understand this very basic point.

Do you think racism against Asian people has ANYTHING in common with racism against back people?

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

I

Do you think racism against Asian people has ANYTHING in common with racism against back people?

Not wholesale no. There are many different reasons for racism and different ways of it manifesting itself that aren't similar at all.

But racism is racism I suppose.

Do you think racism against white people is the same as racism against black people?

So the treatment of men who identify as women is very similar to the treatment of men who are attracted to men? In what way?

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

.

Do you think racism against Asian people has ANYTHING in common with racism against back people?

And if you think that racism is similar for those two groups in the same way the T is lumped in with LGBT, surely you support All Lives Matter

GreeBo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Then you see the similarities between:
a) a child diagnosed with early onset puberty who is prescribed puberty blockers to slow the changes to their body for psychological reasons - generally to buy the time to develop more emotional maturity.
b) a child diagnosed with gender dysphoria who is prescribed puberty blockers to slow the changes to their body for psychological reasons - generally to buy the time to develop more emotional maturity..

Remind us all how early onset puberty is diagnosed vs gender dysphoria?
One is physical, one is psychological.
One frequently reverts, the other doesn't.

Please dont try to equate a physical issue with a psychological one.

suicide_circus

Is not believing that a transwoman is a woman tranphobic?

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not wholesale no. There are many different reasons for racism and different ways of it manifesting itself that aren't similar at all.

But racism is racism I suppose.

Do you think racism against white people is the same as racism against black people?

So the treatment of men who identify as women is very similar to the treatment of men who are attracted to men? In what way?

There are similarities and major differences between racism against black people and racism against white people.

I've already explained how the treatment of gay people and the treatment of trans people has similarities. Did you read my post this morning?

I am mostly talking about the historic treatment of gay people as thankfully it has improved a lot.

So for example, gay people were often portrayed as sexual deviants. Trans people are also portrayed as such.

Both gay people and trans people have been subjected to the panic defense in court when assaulted. This was when their assaulted claimed that they were not in their right mind when they committed the assault as they "panicked" when the gay/trans person came onto them.

Both being gay and being trans have been portrayed as mental illness.

The debate often centres around sexual access to children.

I could go on and on but there's a few for you.

GreeBo

LLMMLL wrote: »

It's really not that hard to understand. Nobody is saying trans people and gay people are the same. We are saying that attitudes towards them have similarities, that their social.experiences have similarities etc.

Ah, so you are arguing that it should really be LGBTQ+RohingaUighurs etc?

For instance take the argument I just responded to in my previous post:

Greebo wonders where trans people have been for the last 300 years, presumably to imply it's a new made.up fashionable thing that doesn't really exist.

Now this argument can be easily dismissed as if it.made sense then it could equally be applied to gay people. It's not that being gay and being trans are the same thing. It's that if being less visible 300 years ago implies something for trans people, it surely implies the same for other groups who were less visible 300 years ago. So by Greebo's reasoning gay people are also just.engaging in a temporary trend because their friends are. All that struggle and self doubt in our teen years was all just for lols I guess.

No, I don't believe I ever said that being gay was a trend. Do you have much evidence to show outbreaks of "gayness" amongst young children?
Do you have much evidence to show gay children reverting back to straight when they mature?

Cestmoi 111

LLMMLL wrote: »

What's misleading is to claim you went looking for trans spaces as a neutral open-minded person and all.you could find were spaces about paraphilia etc. As someone who ACTUALLY knows trans people I can conclusively say you are peddling nonsense. And I don't believe its genuine at all.

LLMMLL wrote: »

The same lesbian friends who are uncomfortable using an app that has trans women on it. That think the very presence of a small number of trans women make an app, and i quote you, "unusable"?

They are hardly giving you an unbiased account of these Apps. I have already shown how they led you to believe there were far more trans women on the Her app than there actually are. You were unable to provide a scintilla of evidence to back up their claims even though it would be quite simple.

LLMMLL wrote: »

Because it’s 100% fabricated.

I know people may want to believe cest moi as what she is claiming aligns with what they want to believe.

I encourage anyone who believes her to sign up to Her and give it a go. I am very confident you will see the fabrication.

I’m so grateful you’re able to conclusively tell me what I’m saying, show me what I’ve been led to believe and point out to me when I’ve fabricated something. Maybe some day, with your help, my re-education will be successful.

CtevenSrowder

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I would consider being forced to live with an incorrect gender identity is to be prosecution in the exact same way as being forced to live as heterosexual is prosecution.
I would consider that should one use public toilet facilities appropriate to one's identified gender is to risk physical violence is the same as then threatened for being cis butch and in the women's toilets.

Seeking to deny a person or minority group of people their preferred identity just because you don't approve is the very definition of prosecution.

I am only opposed to self-id in it's current form.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why isn't anyone so worked up about the cis female sex offenders in women's prisons? All the bluster about two transwomen who are accompanied by two guards at all times when they are in communal spaces but not a word about that.

Because they are female. Trans-women are male. And as such have significant (on average) height and strength advantages that female's don't have. Why do you think we usually separate male and female inmates to begin with?

I am also fully aware of the underlined part. Why do you think it is exactly? Are the female sex offenders followed around in such a way?

It is an unnecessary increase of risk.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As as for that claim highlighted - unless you can provide proof of that I'm just gonna have to assume that's an unsubstantiated lie.
Here is an article on the increase in cis female sex offenders being sent to prison in Ireland https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1043986220936116

How many of them do you think are accompanied by prison guards at all times when in a communal area?

They aren't that I'm aware of. I do not have access to the linked study.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/02/female-prisoners-greater-risk-sexual-assault-transgender-inmates/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Once again, like with the puberty blockers faux ermahgawd, the issue isn't the danger posed by convicted sex offenders in prison, it is focused only on transgender women.

Yes because they are male and as such an even greater risk to other females then their sex offending female counterparts due to aforementioned biological differences.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As for throwing sports women under the bus - gee, I didn't realise transwomen were just sweeping the boards across sports and swooping up all the medals and stuff until I googled it and found out that they aren't (I actually already knew this tbh).

Oh right, so if it's only a small number of women losing out you don't care. Keep pulling that ladder up.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'm beginning to wonder if you are just making nasty stuff up about a very small minority group (around 500 people have availed of gender recognition in Ireland in the last 6 years) which is damaging to public perception of them as you don't like them.

Surely not? That would be persecution.

What have I made up? And I don't 'not like' trans-people. Ofcourse, it suits you to constantly attempt to frame things in that way. It's noting new; transphobia, anti-trans, TERF, bigot and other such insults are littered across these threads.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

You don't get to choose or self identify your sex or your biology no more than you can choose to identify as a different age, a bird or as a millionaire. You are free to do so if you wish, but nobody should be compelled to let you into a crèche, an aviary or a yach club accordingly. To state reality and fact is not persecution.

And again you are conflating homosexuality with transgenderism.

The law in Ireland disagrees with you.

And no I am not - you are failing to understand, or refusing to accept, that two different minority groups can ally as both face persecution for the 'crime' of making some people 'uncomfortable' (to put it mildly) by not conforming to accepted gender roles.

I'll spell it out for you shall I?

Men who love men are accused (by homophobes) of not being "real" men/ or of being feminised men.
Women who love women are accused (by homophobes) of not being "real" women / or being wanna be men.

Ironically the other part of that alliance is people who say I am not a feminised man, I am a woman/I am not a wanna be man, I am a man - but are told by transphobes that is impossible.
Dare I say - "It's against nature"


It's not that long ago the former could be imprisoned/chemically castrated.
Further back it was a capital offence.
A women dressing in men's clothes was also a capital offence.

Feminine men, masculine women - executed.
Homosexual men - executed.

But no connection whatsoever say those who have never been on the receiving end, or live in a society where thanks to those who refused to conform they now enjoy unparalleled rights and protections (although this is not to say there's not pockets of homophobes who still like to make ludicrous claims)

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And if you think that racism is similar for those two groups in the same way the T is lumped in with LGBT, surely you support All Lives Matter

No I don't support all lives matter. Even if it's possible for White people in the US to experience racism against them, they have not experienced even a tiny fraction of what Black people have experienced and continue to experience.

I know you don't believe in the argument you're making and it's supposed to be some kind of gotcha argument but you really need to try harder.

GreeBo

LLMMLL wrote: »

Seriously? In hiding. Just like all the gay people were.

So gay people were hiding in all cultures across the world until the last few decades?
No one even knew what a gay person was until the 90's right?

LLMMLL

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

I’m so grateful you’re able to conclusively tell me what I’m saying, show me what I’ve been led to believe and point out to me when I’ve fabricated something. Maybe some day, with your help, my re-education will be successful.

You're welcome.

By the way I did a basic search for online trans communities and easily found 10 and only 1 had a hint of fetishism. So it's clear evidence that you were fabricating that all the online trans spaces you found were paraphilic. I literally googled "online trans spaces". What did you Google?

CtevenSrowder

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Men who love men are accused (by homophobes) of not being "real" men/ or of being feminised men.
Women who love women are accused (by homophobes) of not being "real" women / or being wanna be men.

But gay men are real men because they are 'adult human males, and gay women are real women because they are 'adult human females'. This is one reason I am against this notion of trans-women are women because, in order for it to be the case, the definition of women/man needs to be changed to accomodate this. Upon which you are left with definitions that don't actually define anything, or ones that appeal to stereotype, opening up the very problem that you post about.

A man is an 'adult human male'. A trans-man is a female, and as such is not a man, they are a trans-man. And vice versa.

LLMMLL

GreeBo wrote: »

So gay people were hiding in all cultures across the world until the last few decades?
No one even knew what a gay person was until the 90's right?

Did trans people only exist in the 90s?

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The law in Ireland disagrees with you.

So sex and gender ARE the same thing to you then?

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Like Dr James Barry of Cork died 1865 which is when it was discovered Dr Barry was born biologically female.

Could be wrong but was that not more a case of her having to disguise her gender as it would otherwise have precluded her from getting educated and practicing medicine, rather than her being transgender?

Gruffalux

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Men who love men are accused (by homophobes) of not being "real" men/ or of being feminised men.
Women who love women are accused (by homophobes) of not being "real" women / or being wanna be men.

Ironically the other part of that alliance is people who say I am not a feminised man, I am a woman/I am not a wanna be man, I am a man - but are told by transphobes that is impossible.
Dare I say - "It's against nature"


It's not that long ago the former could be imprisoned/chemically castrated.

There are some hotly contested words in the first part of this quote. Man. Woman.


And there is a new group of people who are getting castrated now.

LLMMLL

GreeBo wrote: »

Ah, so you are arguing that it should really be LGBTQ+RohingaUighurs etc?



No, I don't believe I ever said that being gay was a trend. Do you have much evidence to show outbreaks of "gayness" amongst young children?
Do you have much evidence to show gay children reverting back to straight when they mature?

Lots of teens experience confusion about their sexuality. I also posted the other day about a poster on this thread (who is anti-trans) and how they have gone from identifying as straight to bi back to straight and now back to bi again. It's very common.