Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

GreeBo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Transitioning toddlers?

These ones? https://teaching2and3yearolds.com/secrets-to-handling-transitions-with-toddlers-in-classroom/

These one's? https://www.thechaosandtheclutter.com/archives/transition-strategies-for-kids

I'm only playing with you. I know you mean these one's: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/01/young-trans-children-know-who-they-are/580366/

And that 'transitioning' is not quite the term for what is going on when children are enabled to not conform to the norms set for their biological gender.
It is the term for what some of the children go on to do later in life - but not all of them.

I'm going to need some evidence that toddlers have transitioned tbh.

Hilarious links by the way, just hilarious.

Strangely, I don't find giving puberty blocking drugs and hormones to children as a good idea.

One of the blindingly obvious things about puberty blockers is that they have to be given before puberty. The average age for puberty is 11.

Oh and you asked for some links, apologies they are not as hilarious as your effort.

https://www.kqed.org/stateofhealth/153172/transgender-children-living-openly-are-doing-well-study-shows

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/my-girl-became-youngest-trans-20138358

https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/11/11/20955059/luna-younger-transgender-child-custody

https://news.sky.com/story/hundreds-of-young-trans-people-seeking-help-to-return-to-original-sex-11827740

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32037397
https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/440851/can-you-really-know-that-a-3-year-old-is-transgender

GreeBo

LLMMLL wrote: »

Lots of teens experience confusion about their sexuality. I also posted the other day about a poster on this thread (who is anti-trans) and how they have gone from identifying as straight to bi back to straight and now back to bi again. It's very common.

Indeed, many do. But confusion is *very* different than undergoing gender reassignment.

Oh and if you think straight -> bi -> straight is in *any* way comparable to transitioning and then detransitioning then you are incredibly deluded.

LLMMLL

GreeBo wrote: »

Indeed, many do. But confusion is *very* different than undergoing gender reassignment.

Oh and if you think straight -> bi -> straight is in *any* way comparable to transitioning and then detransitioning then you are incredibly deluded.

We can disagree on that but the point remains there is a commonality of experience which makes comparing trans rights with gay rights a valid point.

Gatling

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If I was to list them all the mods would get cross..

But claiming someone was trans and them being trans are completely different especially in any historical context

GreeBo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Like Dr James Barry of Cork died 1865 which is when it was discovered Dr Barry was born biologically female.

Thomas Baty died 1954. International lawyer based at the Japanese Imperial court. In 1909 Baty published a science fiction book containing transgender characters.

Lucy Hicks Anderson born 1886.

Albert Cashier born 1843.

Chevalier d'Eon born 1728

Lili Elbe born 1882

Catalina de Erauso born 1585/95

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_lycanthropy#History

There's another small list of people from history. These ones happened to think they were animals. Discuss.

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_lycanthropy#History

There's another small list of people from history. These ones happened to think they were animals. Discuss.

Can we compare this to the shared experience that trans people and gay people have endured?

I can't imagine people would be happy conflating this.

GreeBo

LLMMLL wrote: »

We can disagree on that but the point remains there is a commonality of experience which makes comparing trans rights with gay rights a valid point.

But we cant disagree, thats the point.
To you changing gender is like changing hair colour or something that has no lasting, medical impact to the person. Thats simply not true of people who transition, especially those who under go medical procedures and hormone "treatment".

Based on what you have posed so far on this thread, the commonality is fighting for rights. Why you would stick TQ+ on the end of LGB and not add on the multitude of other peoples who have fought for rights?

What makes trans rights linked to gay rights, but not black rights for example?
Is it because "sex" is involved?

LLMMLL

GreeBo wrote: »

But we cant disagree, thats the point.
To you changing gender is like changing hair colour or something that has no lasting, medical impact to the person. Thats simply not true of people who transition, especially those who under go medical procedures and hormone "treatment".

Based on what you have posed so far on this thread, the commonality is fighting for rights. Why you would stick TQ+ on the end of LGB and not add on the multitude of other peoples who have fought for rights?

What makes trans rights linked to gay rights, but not black rights for example?
Is it because "sex" is involved?

Um no. To me changing gender is not like changing hair colour. How silly is that.

Well black people have a very different experience from gay and trans people.

Both gay and trans people have to come out. Black people don't come out as black.

Gay and trans people are often portrayed as perverts and deviants. Black people aren't.

Gay and trans people have been portrayed as dangerous to children. Black people aren't.

I could go on.....

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Um no. To me changing gender is not like changing hair colour. How silly is that.

Well black people have a very different experience from gay and trans people.

Both gay and trans people have to come out. Black people don't come out as black.

Gay and trans people are often portrayed as perverts and deviants. Black people aren't.

Gay and trans people have been portrayed as dangerous to children. Black people aren't.

I could go on.....

What about the below?

GreeBo wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_lycanthropy#History

There's another small list of people from history. These ones happened to think they were animals. Discuss.

GreeBo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The law in Ireland disagrees with you.

Fantastic, but pointless. The law in Ireland didnt allow abortion, it does now. Gays were not allowed marry, they are now. Ergo, the law can and often is "wrong" and changed.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Men who love men are accused (by homophobes) of not being "real" men/ or of being feminised men.
Women who love women are accused (by homophobes) of not being "real" women / or being wanna be men.

Ironically the other part of that alliance is people who say I am not a feminised man, I am a woman/I am not a wanna be man, I am a man - but are told by transphobes that is impossible.
Dare I say - "It's against nature"

You are deciding its transphobic to say thats impossible, others say its against scientific and biological facts that a man is a woman becuase they want to me.
So, to me, you are a Sciencephobe (or biologyphobe, freedom of choice!)

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It's not that long ago the former could be imprisoned/chemically castrated.
Further back it was a capital offence.
A women dressing in men's clothes was also a capital offence.

Feminine men, masculine women - executed.
Homosexual men - executed.

But, but, but, the "law" said that was ok, and the "law" is never wrong, right?
I'm confused now, is the law only correct when it agrees with your opinion?

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What about the below?

What about it?

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

What about it?

Is it fair to say that they also shared similar experiences to homosexuals and trans folk.

Dyr

I'd imagine its quite strange for gay men and women to have activist weirdos blaggarding them for their lack of support of whatever cause the weirdos decide to tack onto the alphabetti spaghetti movement.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is it fair to say that they also shared similar experiences to homosexuals and trans folk.

Is it? Tell me how

(Your gotcha arguments are pretty bad )

GreeBo

LLMMLL wrote: »

Um no. To me changing gender is not like changing hair colour. How silly is that.

Well black people have a very different experience from gay and trans people.

Both gay and trans people have to come out. Black people don't come out as black.

Gay and trans people are often portrayed as perverts and deviants. Black people aren't.

Gay and trans people have been portrayed as dangerous to children. Black people aren't.

I could go on.....

You think black people haven't and aren't accused of being dangerous to children and deviants?

As for coming out, surely that makes it harder for black people as they can't even hide it?

EmmetSpiceland

Bambi wrote: »

I'd imagine its quite strange for gay men and women to have activist weirdos blaggarding them for their lack of support of whatever cause the weirdos decide to tack onto the alphabetti spaghetti movement.

They’re probably just happy to have the far-right, lunatic fringe, focusing on someone else for a change, gives them a break for awhile.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Is it? Tell me how

(Your gotcha arguments are pretty bad )

There's no gotcha.

Your whole insistence that trans and gay plights are linked is tenuous at best.

Being gay, and being trans shouldn't be conflated in the same way being a paedophile and being gay or trans shouldn't be conflated, the same way having body integrity dysphoria and paedophelia or trans or gay shouldn't be conflated.

Because they suffered some similar experiences doesn't mean they should be under the same umbrella.

Ffs, it's like Hitler was a Nazi and a vegetarian so vegetarians kind of know what Hitler was going through.

Dyr

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

They’re probably just happy to have the far-right, lunatic fringe, focusing on someone else for a change, gives them a break for awhile.

Given that what you consider to be the far right is just normal people, it's safe to say that the far right has loads of gays in its ranks

While the trans activist scene is like flypaper for the unhinged

LLMMLL

GreeBo wrote: »

You think black people haven't and aren't accused of being dangerous to children and deviants?

As for coming out, surely that makes it harder for black people as they can't even hide it?

I'm sure some have and if you have some education to give me on this I'll be happy to hear it.

I didn't say gay or trans people have it harder or easier than black people. What point are you even debating now? Certainly not anything ive raised unfortunately.

GreeBo

LLMMLL wrote: »

Um no. To me changing gender is not like changing hair colour. How silly is that.

Well black people have a very different experience from gay and trans people.

Both gay and trans people have to come out. Black people don't come out as black.

Gay and trans people are often portrayed as perverts and deviants. Black people aren't.

Gay and trans people have been portrayed as dangerous to children. Black people aren't.

I could go on.....

Being gay is internal, its about what you are attracted to, it doesnt impact or in fact require anyone else to believe, accept, acknowledge anything about you.

Being trans is external, its about what you want other people to think of you, it requires others to accept, believe, acknowledge that you have changed your gender.

The two are far more different than the difference between black and trans.
I could spot a bunch of difference such as trans people dont have segregation, they have never been bought and sold as slaves.

excludedbin

Bambi wrote: »

I'd imagine its quite strange for gay men and women to have activist weirdos blaggarding them for their lack of support of whatever cause the weirdos decide to tack onto the alphabetti spaghetti movement.

Yeah, it is quite strange to have activist weirdos blaggarding us as "the alphabetti spaghetti movement" and then turning around expecting our support for their hatred of us.

GreeBo

LLMMLL wrote: »

I'm sure some have and if you have some education to give me on this I'll be happy to hear it.

I didn't say gay or trans people have it harder or easier than black people. What point are you even debating now? Certainly not anything ive raised unfortunately.

If you are sure that some have, why did you use the "fact" that they havent as a way to distinguish them?


I'm debating the tenuous link that you have created between black and trans people.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There's no gotcha.

Your whole insistence that trans and gay plights are linked is tenuous at best.

Being gay, and being trans shouldn't be conflated in the same way being a paedophile and being gay or trans shouldn't be conflated, the same way having body integrity dysphoria and paedophelia or trans or gay shouldn't be conflated.

Because they suffered some similar experiences doesn't mean they should be under the same umbrella.

Ffs, it's like Hitler was a Nazi and a vegetarian so vegetarians kind of know what Hitler was going through.

I've already said multiple times I am not conflating being gay and being trans. I am conflating some of their experiences. I suppose you will keep ignoring that.

The vegetarian Hitler example is a perfect one. Vegetarians do understand what Hitler went through....as a vegetarian. Obviously they don't understand or share any of his other characteristics and experiences, the psycho Nazi stuff.

Of course whether two different groups understand each other's experiences is actually unrelated to my argument anyway.

My argument was not that two different groups can understand each other's experiences (which I believe to some extent they can), it's that arguments against one group can be shown to be nonsense by applying that argument to the other group to see how silly it is.

For example, Greebo posited that since openly trans people were rare 300 years ago it's just a modern fad.

That leads to the conclusion that any group that was rare 300 years ago must also be a modern fad.

We know that Openly gay people were rare 300 years ago.

So why does the argument not apply to them in Greebo's view.

None of the above suggests that gay people are trans or trans people are gay.

LLMMLL

GreeBo wrote: »

If you are sure that some have, why did you use the "fact" that they havent as a way to distinguish them?


I'm debating the tenuous link that you have created between black and trans people.

I'm not aware of any arguments against getting equal rights to Black people that centred around sexual deviancy. If you want to put that forward as a fact, please share the information.

Otherwise you are just throwing everything at the wall and trying to see what sticks.

Dyr

excludedbin wrote: »

Yeah, it is quite strange to have activist weirdos blaggarding us as "the alphabetti spaghetti movement" and then turning around expecting our support for their hatred of us.

"You may come across acronyms that include different combinations of these terms, including:
LGBT
GLBT
LGBTQ
LGBTQQIAAP
LGBTTIQQ2SA
LGBTI
MSGI
GLBTA
GSD
QUILTBAG
FABGLITTER"

https://truecolorsunited.org/2018/02/22/lgbt-lgbtq-acronyms-explained/

LLMMLL

GreeBo wrote: »

Being gay is internal, its about what you are attracted to, it doesnt impact or in fact require anyone else to believe, accept, acknowledge anything about you.

Being trans is external, its about what you want other people to think of you, it requires others to accept, believe, acknowledge that you have changed your gender.

The two are far more different than the difference between black and trans.
I could spot a bunch of difference such as trans people dont have segregation, they have never been bought and sold as slaves.

Being trans isn't external. How ridiculous. That would mean one wouldn't have to come out as trans. That everyone would somehow know.

Both beinggay and being trans are "internal" but often both gay people and trans people want to be open about their "internal" identity and be accepted for it. We are actually very similar in that regard.

Gentlemanne

This is a strange debate but I think its fairly obvious that gay rights and trans rights are inextricably linked, and has been for decades. The only organisiations I see trying to claim otherwise are ones like the LGB Alliance, who are bad-faith actors who are more about being anti-trans than they are about being for Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual people's rights.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

The vegetarian Hitler example is a perfect one. Vegetarians do understand what Hitler went through....as a vegetarian. Obviously they don't understand or share any of his other characteristics and experiences, the psycho Nazi stuff.

Of course whether two different groups understand each other's experiences is actually unrelated to my argument anyway.

My argument was not that two different groups can understand each other's experiences (which I believe to some extent they can), it's that arguments against one group can be shown to be nonsense by applying that argument to the other group to see how silly it is.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Lol ok

Gentlemanne

Gentlemanne wrote: »

This is a strange debate but I think its fairly obvious that gay rights and trans rights are inextricably linked, and has been for decades. The only organisiations I see trying to claim otherwise are ones like the LGB Alliance, who are bad-faith actors who are more about being anti-trans than they are about being for Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual people's rights.

It's not obvious. Not at all. Unless you are willing and happy to accept to include paedophiles, body integrity dysphoria sufferers, people with racial dysphoria and a whole plethora of other less advantageous groups in to the "shared experience" spectrum.