Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

GreeBo wrote: »

Relating cancer treatments to transitioning is just bizarre. Who is dying from not transitioning as a toddler exactly?

Absolutely. Children are put forward for experimental cancer treatments when the other option is certain death. To try and beat back the cancer cells that are multiplying and marauding through their bodies. In that case, the risk is worth because death is a certainty without testing the drug. I’ve seen people who defend puberty blockers try and claim that the suicide risk is comparable and therefore proceeding with giving ill-researched drugs is okay. I just can’t get over the tackiness and irresponsibility of that.

Trying an experimental drug is also sometimes worth it for children with chronic illnesses. It depends on how badly their quality of life is affected.

Gruffalux

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

They’re probably just happy to have the far-right, lunatic fringe, focusing on someone else for a change, gives them a break for awhile.

I have a list. Lists are the thing today.

The far right lunatic fringe incredibly includes the following people

I am going to start with the very many un-named and inconvenient gay and lesbian and transgender people who simply will not get in lock step

plus

Martina Navratilova - famous tennis player, lesbian, her coach to 2 Wimbledon titles was a trans woman.

JK Rowling - darling of the liberals until she dared speak what cannot be said.

Simon Fanshawe - gay man, famous gay rights activist and co- founder of STONEWALL (I sh!t you not!)

Alison Bailey, black lesbian long timer LGB activist and co founder now of LGB Alliance

Joanna Cherry - lesbian SNP MP and Shadow Home Secretary and Shadow Secretary of State for Justice in the House of Commons from 2015 to 2021. Likely to be leader of the party after Sturgeon finishes fcuking herself up.

Abigail Shrier - liberal journalist from the Wall Street Journal

Debra Soh - super liberal sexologist and fetish researcher from Toronto

Dr James Cantor - famous sexologist and prick in my opinion because he says the LGBT+ cannot pull up the ladder on the P, but there you go, liberal as all hell and still a right wing fringe lunatic somehow

Kenneth Zucker - psychologist who ran the Toronto Gender Identity Service for I believe decades and has treated over 500 gender- variant children - still somehow is a bigoted lunatic

Dr David Bell - ran the Tavistock GIDS as Staff Governor for years and resigned because he said children are being, and I quote, ''very severely damaged'' due to their practices.


These are literally off the top of my head. It astonishes me how these lefty bohemian do-gooder social activist types have migrated en masse to being far-right wing fringe lunatics

...or could it be just people like you incorrectly malign them as such? Hmmmmmmmmmmm....

CtevenSrowder

Gentlemanne wrote: »

This is a strange debate but I think its fairly obvious that gay rights and trans rights are inextricably linked, and has been for decades. The only organisiations I see trying to claim otherwise are ones like the LGB Alliance, who are bad-faith actors who are more about being anti-trans than they are about being for Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual people's rights.

The usual 'if they don't agree with me they're transphobes':rolleyes: You can all continue hurling your slurs incessantly, it won't ever make them true.

excludedbin

excludedbin wrote: »

Yeah, it is quite strange to have activist weirdos blaggarding us as "the alphabetti spaghetti movement" and then turning around expecting our support for their hatred of us.

What hatred of homosexuals or indeed trans people have you seen here?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why isn't anyone so worked up about the cis female sex offenders in women's prisons? All the bluster about two transwomen who are accompanied by two guards at all times when they are in communal spaces but not a word about that.

Oh hai, whataboutery. Yup, we all know women’s prison weren’t 100% safe before males were allowed into them. So because they weren’t 100% safe before, it’s fine to make them even less safe? That makes the kind of sense that doesn’t. Is that really your view?

And if I was a female inmate, I’d stand a much better chance of defending myself against your average female than your average male. That’s the reality.

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Oh hai, whataboutery. Yup, we all know women’s prison weren’t 100% safe before males were allowed into them. So because they weren’t 100% safe, it’s fine to make them even less safe? That makes the kind of sense that doesn’t. Is that really your view?

They're not less safe at all.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

Did trans people only exist in the 90s?

1590s ??

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The law in Ireland disagrees with you.

Do tell. How does a law change one’s biological sex? What’s the mechanism of action there? That would be ground-breaking stuff.

Gentlemanne

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

The usual 'if they don't agree with me they're transphobes':rolleyes: You can all continue hurling your slurs incessantly, it won't ever make them true.

are you replying to the wrong post? What slur? Am I not allowed to call the LGB Alliance anti-trans? They surely are.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not obvious. Not at all. Unless you are willing and happy to accept to include paedophiles, body integrity dysphoria sufferers, people with racial dysphoria and a whole plethora of other less advantageous groups in to the "shared experience" spectrum.

It is, we have had decades of LGBT organisations, activists and action and it has only been recently that there's been an attempt to splinter based on spurious pretence. Pedophiles? What does that have to do with anything?

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Do tell. How does a law change one’s biological sex? What’s the mechanism of action there? That would be ground-breaking stuff.

Trans women are considered to be women for legal purposes if they have a GRC.

You can act like it's irrelevant all you like but considering its the legal reasons for trans women being in prisons I would have thought you'd be a little less cavalier about it.

Gatling

Gentlemanne wrote: »

are you replying to the wrong post? What slur? Am I not allowed to call the LGB Alliance anti-trans? They surely are.

Because they are speaking up ?

i previously linked to an article posted in MSM from a lesbian group and straight way it was labelled anti trans propaganda ,it's seems there is division alright and it's seem to be led by a cohort of men demanding a say over women including gay women who have zero interest in having men lumped on to their own cause and struggles

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Trans women are considered to be women for legal purposes if they have a GRC.

You can act like it's irrelevant all you like but considering its the legal reasons for trans women being in prisons I would have thought you'd be a little less cavalier about it.

Again, I ask. Is gender and sex the same to you? If so, how many sexes are there?

GreeBo

LLMMLL wrote: »

I'm not aware of any arguments against getting equal rights to Black people that centred around sexual deviancy. If you want to put that forward as a fact, please share the information

I know this is your MO on this thread, but thats not what I said.
I understand that this is the basis of your link between trans and gay, but I think you need to accept that many people disagree with you, many of them are gay and none of that makes them "transphobic".

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

Is not believing that a transwoman is a woman tranphobic?

Anyone?

GreeBo

LLMMLL wrote: »

Trans women are considered to be women for legal purposes if they have a GRC.

You can act like it's irrelevant all you like but considering its the legal reasons for trans women being in prisons I would have thought you'd be a little less cavalier about it.

So they are not women (legally) until they have a GRC? So we have women who are legally (and biologically) men.

But your stance is they are not men?

GreeBo

suicide_circus wrote: »

Anyone?

depending on where you are, its illegal and abusive.
"transphobic" is a nice umbrella term, like woke imo.

suicide_circus

GreeBo wrote: »

depending on where you are, its illegal and abusive.
"transphobic" is a nice umbrella term, like woke imo.

It's illegal and abusive to not believe something?

GreeBo

LLMMLL wrote: »

Being trans isn't external. How ridiculous. That would mean one wouldn't have to come out as trans. That everyone would somehow know.

Ugh. Its external in that you are demanding that others agree that you have changed gender. No gay person is demanding that others believe they are attracted to the same sex!

Also, you repeatedly said yesterday that trans people dont have to declare it, which is it today?

Both beinggay and being trans are "internal" but often both gay people and trans people want to be open about their "internal" identity and be accepted for it. We are actually very similar in that regard.

See above. Being attracted to the same sex is something internal, being accepted as a gender that differs from your sex is something external, you need others to accept it.

GreeBo

suicide_circus wrote: »

It's illegal and abusive to not believe something?

Well its currently illegal to not treat a trans woman as a woman, and its abusive to call them by male pronouns.

(It has no basis in fact or logic, but there ya go!)

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

They're not less safe at all.

Article from 2 days ago. Do you want me to start posting links to women being raped or threatened in prison by men who say they are transgender? Because I can find them. It is happening in lots of countries now.
I don't usually like to post up a litany of the nasty stuff but if you say completely incorrect things like ''they are not less safe at all'', then I can. To demonstrate with actual evidence that you are not aware of the facts.

https://mynorthwest.com/2666243/doc-washington-correctional-center-women-men-transfer/

Gruffalux

suicide_circus wrote: »

Is not believing that a transwoman is a woman tranphobic?

Yes. It is.

GreeBo

Gentlemanne wrote: »

are you replying to the wrong post? What slur? Am I not allowed to call the LGB Alliance anti-trans? They surely are.



It is, we have had decades of LGBT organisations, activists and action and it has only been recently that there's been an attempt to splinter based on spurious pretence. Pedophiles? What does that have to do with anything?

And how long have we had LGB organisations?

Whats spurious about it? LGB is about sexuality, TQ+IA is about changing your gender.
Sexuality != Gender.

Its cant possibly be a single group since you can have lesbian trans people for example.

suicide_circus

GreeBo wrote: »

Well its currently illegal to not treat a trans woman as a woman, and its abusive to call them by male pronouns.

(It has no basis in fact or logic, but there ya go!)

I'm only talking about the belief

GreeBo

suicide_circus wrote: »

I'm only talking about the belief

Well you cant prove or disprove your belief, so you can only be judged on your actions.

suicide_circus

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Men

Women

Can you define those terms?

One eyed Jack

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Absolutely. Children are put forward for experimental cancer treatments when the other option is certain death. To try and beat back the cancer cells that are multiplying and marauding through their bodies. In that case, the risk is worth because death is a certainty without testing the drug. I’ve seen people who defend puberty blockers try and claim that the suicide risk is comparable and therefore proceeding with giving ill-researched drugs is okay. I just can’t get over the tackiness and irresponsibility of that.

Trying an experimental drug is also sometimes worth it for children with chronic illnesses. It depends on how badly their quality of life is affected.

There’s plenty of tacky and irresponsible attitudes to go around, but there’s also the fact that children diagnosed with gender dysphoria aren’t generally prescribed puberty blockers. 90% of children diagnosed with gender dysphoria, by the time they are adults, are thought to no longer experience gender dysphoria. That’s 90% of those children who have been surveyed who have received a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. That statistic ignores the 10% of children who persist and continue to suffer under the “wait and see” approach, and it ignores children who experience gender dysphoria but have never received a formal diagnosis or any form of treatment.

I wouldn’t compare the risk of death from any form of cancer in children with gender dysphoria, not even because it’s tacky, but simply because it would be impossible to quantify or qualify any similarities between them. It’d just be silly. Instead though, in just taking gender dysphoria on it’s own, I’d be looking at the rates of suicide among children and adolescents who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria and the rates of suicide among those groups (I’m not making comparisons to any other conditions that present themselves in children or adolescents), and examining their quality of life with regard to whether or not puberty blockers can be ethically justified. They’re not experimental, the treatments and the protocols themselves have been devised over decades of medical and scientific research and the experiences of clinicians and patients in a variety of settings.

Claiming that they are “ill researched” is just nonsense. It’s true that there is little research done on gender dysphoria in children, there’s little research done on gender dysphoria in adults, but what there is, is plenty of evidence that the use of puberty blockers can be ethically justified because in the vast majority of cases which have been studied, they improve the patients quality of life, to the degree that they are regarded as safe, in spite of the grotesque and rather obvious efforts of some people to characterise the treatments as being unethical as though it is a certainty that every child will experience the exact same negative outcomes of any treatment. Whatever they do or don’t have, clinicians, scientists and medical professionals, don’t have crystal balls, so their ability to foretell the future in every individual case is limited to a great degree by the information they have at that time. That’s why the protocols were developed as they are now and why puberty blockers are used off label, it’s essentially to buy time, because precisely what medical professionals don’t want, is negative outcomes for their patients, whether the patient is a child or an adult. They want the child to develop into adulthood as much as anyone does, and want to avoid circumstances where children are choosing to end their own lives prematurely -


OBJECTIVES: Our primary objective was to examine prevalence rates of suicide behavior across 6 gender identity groups: female; male; transgender, male to female; transgender, female to male; transgender, not exclusively male or female; and questioning. Our secondary objective was to examine variability in the associations between key sociodemographic characteristics and suicide behavior across gender identity groups.

METHODS: Data from the Profiles of Student Life: Attitudes and Behaviors survey (N = 120 617 adolescents; ages 11–19 years) were used to achieve our objectives. Data were collected over a 36-month period: June 2012 to May 2015. A dichotomized self-reported lifetime suicide attempts (never versus ever) measure was used. Prevalence statistics were compared across gender identity groups, as were the associations between sociodemographic characteristics (ie, age, parents’ highest level of education, urbanicity, sexual orientation, and race and/or ethnicity) and suicide behavior.

RESULTS: Nearly 14% of adolescents reported a previous suicide attempt; disparities by gender identity in suicide attempts were found. Female to male adolescents reported the highest rate of attempted suicide (50.8%), followed by adolescents who identified as not exclusively male or female (41.8%), male to female adolescents (29.9%), questioning adolescents (27.9%), female adolescents (17.6%), and male adolescents (9.8%). Identifying as nonheterosexual exacerbated the risk for all adolescents except for those who did not exclusively identify as male or female (ie, nonbinary). For transgender adolescents, no other sociodemographic characteristic was associated with suicide attempts.

CONCLUSIONS: Suicide prevention efforts can be enhanced by attending to variability within transgender populations, particularly the heightened risk for female to male and nonbinary transgender adolescents.


Transgender Adolescent Suicide Behavior

GreeBo

suicide_circus wrote: »

Can you define those terms?

I'll give it a go, based on the education this thread has provided.

"Woman" : Anyone who currently thinks they are a woman, regardless of sex or "assigned gender". Note that it is not necessary for them to declare that they believe they are a woman. Also note that they man declare it, but its impossible to know if they are really mean it. Its also impossible to know if they really mean that they really mean it.
Warning, may contain nuts.

"Man" : Opposite to above.
Nuts optional.

suicide_circus

GreeBo wrote: »

I'll give it a go, based on the education this thread has provided.

"Woman" : Anyone who currently thinks they are a woman, regardless of sex or "assigned gender". Note that it is not necessary for them to declare that they believe they are a woman. Also note that they man declare it, but its impossible to know if they are really mean it. Its also impossible to know if they really mean that they really mean it.
Warning, may contain nuts.

"Man" : Opposite to above.
Nuts optional.

Thanks but i'm looking for the poster i quoted to answer. Or at least someone who shares there views.

GreeBo

One eyed Jack wrote: »

CONCLUSIONS: Suicide prevention efforts can be enhanced by attending to variability within transgender populations, particularly the heightened risk for female to male and nonbinary transgender adolescents.[/i]


Transgender Adolescent Suicide Behavior

And how does that compare to suicide in general amongst this group?

Gruffalux

GreeBo wrote: »

Well you cant prove or disprove your belief, so you can only be judged on your actions.

The central tenet of ''A transwoman is a woman'' or ''A transman is a man'' is an article of faith. It pertains to beliefs. No action is required specifically. But the belief must be supported by being...well...believed. So I am thinking that not believing a trans woman is a woman is in essence transphobic.

For me, I believe a trans woman is a trans woman. And a good person unless proven to be otherwise, just like everyone else I might meet.

But I cannot be compelled to believe what is untrue. Woman is the indivisible ontological category of adult human females. Females are the sex with large gametes. Sex is binary in humans.

People are welcome and entitled to express themselves as transgender. I don't know what ''gender non-conforming'' means - I thought we were long past that archaic drivel about what is gender conformity. I better put away my techie toys if we are not!