Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

suicide_circus

And can salvation be attained through faith alone? Or are good works also required?

One eyed Jack

GreeBo wrote: »

And how does that compare to suicide in general amongst this group?

Unfavourably, is one way of putting it. The results of the survey of 120,617 adolescents showed evidence that of the 14% who had attempted suicide at some point in their lives, the highest group to have attempted suicide at some point in their lives were female to male adolescents.

I’m really not surprised by those statistics tbh as there’s plenty of evidence from many sources of the phenomenon of suicidal behaviour and self-harming behaviour among prepubescent and adolescent children, and there are a couple of explanations put forward to explain the phenomenon. It’s just the phenomenon of self-harming and suicidal behaviour is even more prevalent among adolescents who experience gender dysphoria.

Gruffalux

If the highest group of adolescents attempting suicide is female to male transgender identifying girls, then we as a society need to look more closely at what is happening to our young girls.
Females were by far the smaller portion of transgender people until very recently. And the figures have totally reversed in very recent years - up to 3/4s of all trans identifying adolescents are girls now. The largest number by far of gender operations are mastectomies.

I have unfashionable views which put me beyond the remit of most feminists these days (thus surely TERFdom?) about how things are going for girls and women in society.
I believe highly-sexualising young girls from even pre teen years leads to anomie, distress, abuse, feelings of worthlessness. I think girls like to fall in love but when they are getting or being expected to provide only sex from or for many different people instead of love (and pornified expectations too) it is really bad for self esteem. (Boys like to fall in love too of course).
It says a lot that Dr Seuss is challenged as being unacceptable in a time when Wet Ass Pussy is a top selling record. Anyways.
Social media, unreal body expectations, pervasive hypersexualisation in the culture, the male gaze too early, depression, alienation, all these are not helpful at all - and I feel that girlhood itself as an experience is too much for some adolescents to face. It is ironic that in a post female liberation period for girls they have become in many ways more highly defined and dependent upon their estimated sexual value than before..

silverharp

Gruffalux wrote: »

If the highest group of adolescents attempting suicide is female to male transgender identifying girls, then we as a society need to look more closely at what is happening to our young girls.
Females were by far the smaller portion of transgender people until very recently. And the figures have totally reversed in very recent years - up to 3/4s of all trans identifying adolescents are girls now. The largest number by far of gender operations are mastectomies.

I have unfashionable views which put me beyond the remit of most feminists these days (thus surely TERFdom?) about how things are going for girls and women in society.
I believe highly-sexualising young girls from even pre teen years leads to anomie, distress, abuse, feelings of worthlessness. I think girls like to fall in love but when they are getting or being expected to provide only sex from or for many different people instead of love (and pornified expectations too) it is really bad for self esteem. (Boys like to fall in love too of course).
It says a lot that Dr Seuss is challenged as being unacceptable in a time when Wet Ass Pussy is a top selling record. Anyways.
Social media, unreal body expectations, pervasive hypersexualisation in the culture, the male gaze too early, depression, alienation, all these are not helpful at all - and I feel that girlhood itself as an experience is too much for some adolescents to face. It is ironic that in a post female liberation period for girls they have become in many ways more highly defined and dependent upon their estimated sexual value than before..

freedom and safety are inversely correlated, also freedom and mental health by the look of it

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

. It’s just the phenomenon of self-harming and suicidal behaviour is even more prevalent among adolescents who experience gender dysphoria.

Is there proof that states that they are attempting suicide or self harming due specifically to dysphoria of some kind or is it linked to a dysphoria and other underlying mental health illness or issues

LLMMLL

GreeBo wrote: »

I know this is your MO on this thread, but thats not what I said.
I understand that this is the basis of your link between trans and gay, but I think you need to accept that many people disagree with you, many of them are gay and none of that makes them "transphobic".

My MO? This is exactly the point you raised. If you think ive misinterpreted you then correct me.

You keep saying black people have been claimed to be sexual.deviants. So show me where?

If you can't show it then my original point stands. It is something that gay people and trans people have in common that differs from black people.

LLMMLL

GreeBo wrote: »

So they are not women (legally) until they have a GRC? So we have women who are legally (and biologically) men.

But your stance is they are not men?

They are not treated as women under Irish law unless they have a GRC. Are you only learning this now?

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

They are not treated as women under Irish law unless they have a GRC. Are you only learning this now?

But you have repeatedly claimed they are real women even if it's only self identifying .

LLMMLL

GreeBo wrote: »

Ugh. Its external in that you are demanding that others agree that you have changed gender. No gay person is demanding that others believe they are attracted to the same sex!

Also, you repeatedly said yesterday that trans people dont have to declare it, which is it today?



See above. Being attracted to the same sex is something internal, being accepted as a gender that differs from your sex is something external, you need others to accept it.

For both gay people and trans people, whether they are believed or not makes no difference as to their internal identity. Because being gay and trans are both "internal". The idea that just because some people don't believe that trans women are women that make it an "external" thing and not an "internal" one. It's so silly.

Today is the same as yesterday. Trans people do not have to declare it to be trans. Neither do gay. However.nobody will know unless they do. Does.this really have to spelled out? It's alarming that it does.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

Article from 2 days ago. Do you want me to start posting links to women being raped or threatened in prison by men who say they are transgender? Because I can find them. It is happening in lots of countries now.
I don't usually like to post up a litany of the nasty stuff but if you say completely incorrect things like ''they are not less safe at all'', then I can. To demonstrate with actual evidence that you are not aware of the facts.

https://mynorthwest.com/2666243/doc-washington-correctional-center-women-men-transfer/

Yes I will ask you to post evidence of a similar system to Ireland resulting in rape.

In that case they put a rapist in the general population. That's not the Irish approach.

I believe that anyone who has committed rape should be kept separate from the general population whether they be male or female, cis or trans.

Of.course the ****ty American system didn't bother and led to horrific results.

Hopefully the American system will emulate us soon and keep prisoners safe.

And I await the evidence showing the Irish system won't work.

LLMMLL

GreeBo wrote: »

And how long have we had LGB organisations?

Whats spurious about it? LGB is about sexuality, TQ+IA is about changing your gender.
Sexuality != Gender.

Its cant possibly be a single group since you can have lesbian trans people for example.

Next Greebo will be telling us we have to split the lesbians and the gay men because he played a game of.spot the difference and found one.

Then he will try and split the gay men into groups based on heights.

He won't be happy until theres approximately until there's.millions of separate groups each consisting of one person (he spotted that they had different fingerprints so of course they could have nothing in common).

Natterjack from Kerry

Gruffalux wrote: »

The central tenet of ''A transwoman is a woman'' or ''A transman is a man'' is an article of faith. It pertains to beliefs. No action is required specifically. But the belief must be supported by being...well...believed. So I am thinking that not believing a trans woman is a woman is in essence transphobic.

'phobic' is a derogatory term though which is unfairly critical and offensive to those who dont happen to share the belief as you say which is an article of faith, rather than a factually based conclusion.
Surely, not believing a trans woman is a woman is a rational conclusion, or at worst, jumping to a conclusion on an open question ? The extent of the belief of the trans person themselves, does not alter the fact.

To be classed as transphobic, one would have to discriminate against someone who is trans, and treat them differently to someone who is not, simply because they are trans. My view is that a trans woman is still a man. But in most respects, can be treated as a woman, as is their wish. That is not to say, nor contradictory to, treating them at times, as a man. And that would still not be transphobic.

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

But you have repeatedly claimed they are real women even if it's only self identifying .

Yes but they won't have the same legal rights as other women.

Gruffalux

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

My view is that a trans woman is still a man. But in most respects, can be treated as a woman, as is their wish. That is not to say, nor contradictory to, treating them at times, as a man. And that would still not be transphobic.

I am answering as per the activist tenets - what you are describing is considered transphobic. There can be no exceptions because exceptions undermine the fundamental tenet that a transwoman is a woman. No exceptions or calibrated responses for any reasons are permitted.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

Yes I will ask you to post evidence of a similar system to Ireland resulting in rape.

Considering the only 2 currently locked up in Irish prisons both for sexual based offences it's only a matter of time .
It's the reason you asked for evidence knowing that because it's so recent ,but we can look at the UK where in something like 18 months 10 +% of sexual assaults and rapes were committed by trans people male to female ,
It's pretty obvious already there is an issue

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

Yes but they won't have the same legal rights as other women.

But you don't need a GRC to be a woman .

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

Considering the only 2 currently locked up in Irish prisons both for sexual based offences it's only a matter of time .
It's the reason you asked for evidence knowing that because it's so recent ,but we can look at the UK where in something like 18 months 10 +% of sexual assaults and rapes were committed by trans people male to female ,
It's pretty obvious already there is an issue

Um you might want to deal with the 90% of rapists as well if you are so concerned with prisoners. What are you suggesting to protect those raped in the 90% of instances?

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

But you don't need a GRC to be a woman .

I know. I'm glad we finally agree on this.

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Is there proof that states that they are attempting suicide or self harming due specifically to dysphoria of some kind or is it linked to a dysphoria and other underlying mental health illness or issues

Proof that states that adolescents experiencing gender dysphoria attempted suicide or self harming due specifically to dysphoria? No, and it would be impossible to prove anything definitive in any particular circumstances, but that was never the point. But they were able to demonstrate a direct link between adolescents experiencing gender dysphoria and higher rates of suicidal behaviour among that specific cohort than other adolescent cohorts who did not experience gender dysphoria, not linked to other underlying mental health issues or illnesses, which were observed in the 14% of adolescents who had attempted suicide in their lifetime expressed as a percentage of the total number of adolescents surveyed.

They also provide figures and tables from the study which you can view yourself here -


Percentages of self-reported suicide behavior among adolescents by gender identity. Subsamples include 0.2% (n = 202) transgender, male to female; 0.1% (n = 175) transgender, female to male; and 0.3% (n = 344) transgender, not exclusively male or female. Additionally, a small percentage of adolesscents reported that they were not sure of their gender identity (0.9% [n = 1052]; referred to as questioning), whereas 50.6% (n = 60 973) identified as female, and 48% (n = 57 871) identified as male. Different subscripts represent significant differences between groups (P < .001). a Female adolescents reported lower levels of suicide behavior compared to all transgender youth but higher levels compared to cisgender male adolescents. b Male adolescents reported the lowest levels of suicide behavior compared to all other groups. c Transgender, male to female, and questioning youth reported higher levels of suicide behavior compared to cisgender males and females but lower levels compared to transgender, female to male, and transgender, nonbinary youth. d Transgender, female to male, and transgender, nonbinary youth reported the highest levels of suicide behavior compared to all other groups.

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

Yes I will ask you to post evidence of a similar system to Ireland resulting in rape.

In that case they put a rapist in the general population. That's not the Irish approach.

I believe that anyone who has committed rape should be kept separate from the general population whether they be male or female, cis or trans.

Of.course the ****ty American system didn't bother and led to horrific results.

Hopefully the American system will emulate us soon and keep prisoners safe.

And I await the evidence showing the Irish system won't work.

Janiah Monroe was never convicted pre prison of rape. They were not a rapist. They were convicted for arson and second degree murder and aggravated battery. When moved to the female estate they raped the claimant in this case. Wardens also attempted to silence the victim and stop her making the complaint.

So should trans women arsonists and burglars also be kept separate from the general population? And do you keep moving the goal posts?
How about a third and even fourth space in prisons for those who identify as transgender which would keep females and transgender people safer?

https://news.wttw.com/2020/02/19/lawsuit-female-prisoner-says-she-was-raped-transgender-inmate

Gentlemanne

GreeBo wrote: »

And how long have we had LGB organisations?

Whats spurious about it? LGB is about sexuality, TQ+IA is about changing your gender.
Sexuality != Gender.

Its cant possibly be a single group since you can have lesbian trans people for example.

This is unbelievably obtuse lol. If you want to make arguments from arithmetic then we should pull out a venn diagram to teach you about overlapping statuses.

Also, of course sexuality and gender are not literally identical but about 99% of serious people understand why they are a part of LGBT.

Natterjack from Kerry

Gruffalux wrote: »

I am answering as per the activist tenets - what you are describing is considered transphobic. There can be no exceptions because exceptions undermine the fundamental tenet that a transwoman is a woman. No exceptions or calibrated responses for any reasons are permitted.

I dont think you can say considered transphobic full stop. I dont consider it so. Nor do I think there is any rationale that justifies it as transphobic, beyond one of blind faith. The fundamental tenet is not that fundamental.
Sorry, am not sure if you are really arguing the above yourself, or just putting yourself in the shoes of those who do argue such a position - but its not really an argument.

Is it not like someone who says they do not believe in God being called a religiophobe by believers ?

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

Janiah Monroe was never convicted pre prison of rape. They were not a rapist. They were convicted for arson and second degree murder and aggravated battery. When moved to the female estate they raped the claimant in this case. Wardens also attempted to silence the victim and stop her making the complaint.

So should trans women arsonists and burglars also be kept separate from the general population? And do you keep moving the goal posts?
How about a third and even fourth space in prisons for those who identify as transgender which would keep females and transgender people safer?

https://news.wttw.com/2020/02/19/lawsuit-female-prisoner-says-she-was-raped-transgender-inmate

No I don't believe someone who has committed a non sexual offence should be kept separate from the general population.

But let's follow your line of reasoning to it's inevitable conclusion. If I can find an example of a cis male prisoner raping another cis male prisoner in male prisons. Does that mean cis males all have to be kept separate.

If I find an example of a cis woman sexually assaulting another cis woman In a prison do they all have to be kept separate?

If I find an example of a prison guard assaulting a prisoner do all prison guards need to be kept separate From prisoners. That one's a real head scratcher.

How far do you want to base your conclusions off isolated incidences?

CtevenSrowder

LLMMLL wrote: »

No I don't believe someone who has committed a non sexual offence should be kept separate from the general population.

But let's follow your line of reasoning to it's inevitable conclusion. If I can find an example of a cis male prisoner raping another cis male prisoner in male prisons. Does that mean cis males all have to be kept separate.

If I find an example of a cis woman sexually assaulting another cis woman In a prison do they all have to be kept separate?

If I find an example of a prison guard assaulting a prisoner do all prison guards need to be kept separate From prisoners. That one's a real head scratcher.

How far do you want to base your conclusions off isolated incidences?

'cis male':rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'd forgotten about the classic trans-female remark haha

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

Um you might want to deal with the 90% of rapists as well if you are so concerned with prisoners

More deflection

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

No I don't believe someone who has committed a non sexual offence should be kept separate from the general population.

But let's follow your line of reasoning to it's inevitable conclusion. If I can find an example of a cis male prisoner raping another cis male prisoner in male prisons. Does that mean cis males all have to be kept separate.

If I find an example of a cis woman sexually assaulting another cis woman In a prison do they all have to be kept separate?

If I find an example of a prison guard assaulting a prisoner do all prison guards need to be kept separate From prisoners. That one's a real head scratcher.

How far do you want to base your conclusions off isolated incidences?

In the end I didn't have to look very far. I didn't even have to look for individual incidents like Gruffalux did. There are whole patterns to be found:

"While female inmates were more likely to be sexually victimized by other inmates than by staff (21.2 vs. 7.6%), male inmates were more likely to report an incident of sexual victimization perpetrated by staff (7.6 vs. 4.3%)."

I guess all the female inmates.will need not a third.or.fourth space but thousands of individual spaces as by Gruffalux's criteria, even one incident should dictate prison policy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2438589/

Gatling

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Also, of course sexuality and gender are not literally identical but about 99% of serious people understand why they are a part of LGBT.

But if a gay man decides has a straight Woman tomorrow are they still part of LGBT at this rate LGBT will have next to no meaning with every new buzz letter

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

More deflection

It's not deflection it's the entire point. Trans people are not responsible for the vast amount of prison rapes. Anti-trans people should stop pretending they care about the victims of prison rape as if they did they wouldn't be distorting the impact of trans people on this issue.

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

But if a gay man decides has a straight Woman tomorrow are they still part of LGBT at this rate LGBT will have next to no meaning with every new buzz letter

Then she would be trans and of course part of LGBT......

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

No I don't believe someone who has committed a non sexual offence should be kept separate from the general population.

But let's follow your line of reasoning to it's inevitable conclusion. If I can find an example of a cis male prisoner raping another cis male prisoner in male prisons. Does that mean cis males all have to be kept separate.

If I find an example of a cis woman sexually assaulting another cis woman In a prison do they all have to be kept separate?

If I find an example of a prison guard assaulting a prisoner do all prison guards need to be kept separate From prisoners. That one's a real head scratcher.

How far do you want to base your conclusions off isolated incidences?

The basis of your argument, which is that more rape or sexual violence is JUST more rape or sexual violence because 'whatabout what already happens over there', is fundamentally amoral. How amoral do you want to be?