Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Gruffalux

I should be able to argue my opinion on gender identity ideology and present facts without being accused of being on the same side of a debate as monsters who burn others alive.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

I should be able to argue my opinion on gender identity ideology and present facts without being accused of being on the same side of a debate as monsters who burn others alive.

The debate had consequences. Constantly dehumanising trans people leads to people treating them inhumanely.

CtevenSrowder

LLMMLL wrote: »

The debate had consequences. Constantly dehumanising trans people leads to people treating them inhumanely.

Funny thing, we do the exact opposite of dehumanising them, by pointing out that that a man cannot be a women due to their biological sex as it pertains to humans.

Cestmoi 111

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

It shouldnt take the law or anything else to police civility. Anyone not complying with the wishes of the trans person in those circumstances is just a rude insensitive oik. These are essentially trivial cases, with no excuse for not complying with someone's wishes.

Not necessarily. It would be nearly impossible for me to think of a male person in she/her terms. Don’t forget some trans identified males keep their beards.

Also to me it is the thin end of the wedge. Calling trans identified men “transwomen” was a step on the way to “transwomen are women” which has led us to where we are now forced to have these males in our changing rooms and sports. I don’t think a campaign to ‘allow trans identified males into girls changing rooms’ would have received the same traction and blind support as saying “transgirls are girls and belong in the girls changing rooms.”

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

The debate had consequences. Constantly dehumanising trans people leads to people treating them inhumanely.

This is a disgusting tactic by you and Bannasidhe.to attempt to link those with whom you debate to vile murderers.

Most trans women very tragically murdered are murdered by their intimate partners.

LLMMLL

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

Not necessarily. It would be nearly impossible for me to think of a male person in she/her terms. Don’t forget some trans identified males keep their beards.

Also to me it is the thin end of the wedge. Calling trans identified men “transwomen” was a step on the way to “transwomen are women” which has led us to where we are now forced to have these males in our changing rooms and sports. I don’t think a campaign to ‘allow trans identified males into girls changing rooms’ would have received the same traction and blind support as saying “transgirls are girls and belong in the girls changing rooms.”

You don't have to think it. You just have to say it.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

This is a disgusting tactic by you and Bannasidhe.to attempt to link those with whom you debate to vile murderers.

Most trans women very tragically murdered are murdered by their intimate partners.

It's not a tactic its the truth. I know people don't like to be reminded of the consequences of their actions but such is life. Maybe you could just condemn these vicious crimes and move on.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

The debate had consequences. Constantly dehumanising trans people leads to people treating them inhumanely.

That's a big fat lie. Nothing we said here was dehumanising or was it a contributing factor to the people burned to death.

The fact that you and the other person even alluded to it is a damning indictment on how disingenuous your position is.

Appalling and disgusting.

And to think that you think you are an ally...

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

It's not a tactic its the truth. I know people don't like to be reminded of the consequences of their actions but such is life. Maybe you could just condemn these vicious crimes and move on.

Of course everyone condemns it. It's the default position. It says more about you that you feel that we should need to condemn everything.

My mother's house was burgled last week. I assume that your silence on the matter means you are complicit in the robbery.

Your silence is violence.

CtevenSrowder

LLMMLL wrote: »

You don't have to think it. You just have to say it.

And there we have it. Compelled speech.

CtevenSrowder

Deleted User wrote: »

That's a big fat lie. Nothing we said here was dehumanising or was it a contributing factor to the people burned to death.

The fact that you and the other person even alluded to it is a damning indictment on how disingenuous your position is.

Appalling and disgusting.

And to think that you think you are an ally...

They aren't even that extreme as far as TRA's go!

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Of course everyone condemns it. It's the default position. It says more about you that you feel that we should need to condemn everything.

My mother's house was burgled last week. I assume that your silence on the matter means you are complicit in the robbery.

Your silence is violence.

No I condemn the burgling of your mother's house.

And thank you for condemning the violence against trans women.

jam_mac_jam

Implying that posters wouldn't condemn the murder of anyone is a fairly disturbing accusation.

I condemn the murder of trans women and trans men. I condem the murder of men. I condemn the murder of women.

I also condemn the Holocaust, the Gulags and the actions of the Khmer Rouge.

All have the same relevance to debates on gender theory.

The majority of people who murder trans women are the exact same people who murder women. Their sexual partners.

Certainly not people who debate if trans women should use the same toilet.

Natterjack from Kerry

LLMMLL wrote: »

The debate had consequences. Constantly dehumanising trans people leads to people treating them inhumanely.

Nobody really dehumanises trans people though do they ?
The worst that might happens is people decline to go along with a trans person being their claimed gender. But that is not dehumanising. Its being awkward or unkind. Regarding a transwoman as a man is simply a disagreement - and in no way dehumanising.

Quantum Erasure

Just came across this in the 'wokism' thread, from Canada

Court to hear case of 6-year-old traumatized by teacher insisting ‘girls aren’t real’
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/court-to-hear-case-of-6-year-old-traumatized-by-teacher-insisting-girls-arent-real

On another occasion, the teacher drew a gender spectrum on the board and asked each student to identify where they fit on the spectrum. NB indicated that she was on the furthest end of the spectrum marked “girl.” The teacher then told the class that “girls are not real, and boys are not real”. This was extremely upsetting to NB.

NB went home and told her parents, repeatedly asking why her identity as a girl was “not real.” She stated that she was not sure if she wanted to be a mommy when she grew up, and asked if she could “go to the doctor” about this issue. NB also expressed feeling that she “had to do something” about the fact that she is a girl. This followed a lesson by the teacher on the concepts of gender spectrum and sex changes

.

LLMMLL

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Implying that posters wouldn't condemn the murder of anyone is a fairly disturbing accusation.

I condemn the murder of trans women and trans men. I condem the murder of men. I condemn the murder of women.

I also condemn the Holocaust, the Gulags and the actions of the Khmer Rouge.

All have the same relevance to debates on gender theory.

The majority of people who murder trans women are the exact same people who murder women. Their sexual partners.

Certainly not people who debate if trans women should use the same toilet.

Ah if only it were a debate about toilets. What actually happens is that anti-trans posters go out of their way to find individuals who repel most people and try to claim them as representative of the trans community. Bliss Female and cest_moi are constantly trying to portray trans women as fetishists with cest_moi posting easily disprovable nonsense about the number of trans women on lesbian dating apps or the impossibility of finding trans online communities that don't centre around fetishism.

These dehumanising tactics of course contribute to violence against trans people.

ingalway

Bannasidhe wrote: »

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiewareham/2020/11/11/350-transgender-people-have-been-murdered-in-2020-transgender-day-of-remembrance-list/?sh=5ddd326f65a6

BURNED ALIVE.

Think about that.

BURNED. ALIVE.

If you all are comfortable being on the same side of a 'debate' with those who burn people alive I hope, for their sake, no member of your family or any of your friends ever comes out at Transgender.
Particularly those of you sharing inflammatory content that plays right into the hands of those who murder transgender people for the 'crime' of being transgender.

I'm out of this thread.

I'll not lend credence to this being a balanced discussion by participating in it any longer.

Whilst no one should ever be physically/sexually abused for any reason the reaction above is very melodramatic - it would lead a reader to believe that 350 trans people have been BURNED. ALIVE. in 2020.

The report tells us nothing about how many people were burned alive but it does tell us that nearly half of those murdered were in South America which is notorious for the very high number of sex workers killed every year, female, male and trans.

In 2017 50,000 women were killed by a partner or family member. 37.000 more women were killed by strangers.

Women and young girls are being murdered, maimed, raped and traumatised for life by their own family members, or a partner. It is a huge human rights issue.

LLMMLL wrote: »

The debate had consequences. Constantly dehumanising trans people leads to people treating them inhumanely.

The debate had consequences. Constantly dehumanising females leads to people treating them inhumanely.

LLMMLL

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Nobody really dehumanises trans people though do they ?
The worst that might happens is people decline to go along with a trans person being their claimed gender. But that is not dehumanising. Its being awkward or unkind. Regarding a transwoman as a man is simply a disagreement - and in no way dehumanising.

No people dehumanise them all the time. Trying to portray them as fetishists is dehumanising. Claiming that a dating app is "unusable" because it has a TINY number of trans people on it is dehumanising. Responding to a story of a 13 year old trans girl having a nice conversation with Michelle Obama with stories about her vagina drying up is dehumanising.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

No people dehumanise them all the time. Trying to portray them as fetishists is dehumanising. Claiming that a dating app is "unusable" because it has a TINY number of trans people on it is dehumanising. Responding to a story of a 13 year old trans girl having a nice conversation with Michelle Obama with stories about her vagina drying up is dehumanising.

No it's not.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No it's not.

Yes it is

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Yes it is

It's no more dehumanising to trans people than your insistence that transwomen are women is to biological females.

Dyr

LLMMLL wrote: »

No people dehumanise them all the time. Trying to portray them as fetishists is dehumanising. Claiming that a dating app is "unusable" because it has a TINY number of trans people on it is dehumanising. Responding to a story of a 13 year old trans girl having a nice conversation with Michelle Obama with stories about her vagina drying up is dehumanising.

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

. Responding to a story of a 13 year old trans girl having a nice conversation with Michelle Obama with stories about her vagina drying up is dehumanising.

I was describing the factual effects of affirmation therapy via puberty blockers and cross sex hormones on the body of any minor who is prescribed them.

If you know that the factual biological effects on a child's body of a treatment described by its developer as ''experimental'' and ''under-researched'', and by Dr David Bell, Former Staff Governor of Tavistock GIDS UK as causing ''very serious harm'' to children, are different than described by me, then outline your counter facts.


If the quotes outlined more recently from prominent trans women authors and speakers and academics are not attributable to them, if the Bios are incorrect, if the meaning of the words has been improperly understood, then argue like an adult to present the counter facts.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

I was describing the factual effects of affirmation therapy via puberty blockers and cross sex hormones on the body of any minor who is prescribed them.

If you know that the factual biological effects on a child's body of a treatment described by its developer as ''experimental'' and ''under-researched'', and by Dr David Bell, Former Staff Governor of Tavistock GIDS UK as causing ''very serious harm'' to children, are different than described by me, then outline your counter facts.


If the quotes outlined more recently from prominent trans women authors and speakers and academics are not attributable to them, if the Bios are incorrect, if the meaning of the words has been improperly understood, then argue like an adult to present the counter facts.

Before you edited your post (which thankfully you did) you outlined the side effects of a treatment you had no idea if she was on.

What this means is that no trans child can have a public presence without their medical status being assumed Hy you and the effects on their genitals being discussed. It's horrible.

Quotes from fiction of some trans writers do not represent trans women in general.

Am I to be judged by the unpalatable quotes from fiction written by cis males? Because if so then I'm in trouble.

Or is it only trans women who are judged as a group by whichever representative suits your dehumanising agenda?

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

Before you edited your post (which thankfully you did) you outlined the side effects of a treatment you had no idea if she was on.

What this means is that no trans child can have a public presence without their medical status being assumed Hy you and the effects on their genitals being discussed. It's horrible.

Quotes from fiction of some trans writers do not represent trans women in general.

Am I to be judged by the unpalatable quotes from fiction written by cis males? Because if so then I'm in trouble.

Or is it only trans women who are judged as a group by whichever representative suits your dehumanising agenda?

I said ''children like them''. One of the issues with lauding celebrity trans kids simply for being trans is that it increases the number of children going forwards for treatment.

The first quote is from a supposed fiction. The next 3 are from personal essays, speeches or autobiographies. The represent the authors opinion directly. They portray femaleness and feminine nature in a truly despicable fashion as being of the nature of sexually and physically subjugated, over powered, sold into slavery, abused. These are prominent authors and a pattern is decipherable. I know many trans people would condemn this kind of regressive portrayal of womanhood. Perhaps the radical trans activist community should also loudly condemn and disown these truly misogynist brutal writings. It might effectively silence such people from their hate speech.

Gruffalux

And here is an interesting fact - I came upon all those quotes on the twitter timeline of a trans woman who was utterly horrified by them and wanted them to be made public.

One eyed Jack

Gruffalux wrote: »

I think there is a more serious element to this than just puking - though i know what you mean. Even if this were a fringe element it should be shut down or shunned by right-thinking people as sowing seeds of misogyny and violence. But it is not fringe - these are prominent speakers who get clapped on. That is what amazes me.

Gruffalux wrote: »

I should be able to argue my opinion on gender identity ideology and present facts without being accused of being on the same side of a debate as monsters who burn others alive.

In the same way as you should be able to argue your opinion on gender identity ideology and present facts without being accused of being on the same side of debate as monsters who burn others alive, shouldn’t that same standard equally apply to everyone without your attempting to associate anyone who doesn’t share your opinions with “wrong think” and sowing seeds of misogyny and violence?

They’re not nearly so influential as you’re making out, no more value in their tedious musings than the feeble-minded fantasies of a certain author of children’s fiction who leaned into the same tired tropes that have been done to death in far better thriller fiction genre than she will ever be capable of writing. You wouldn’t accuse her of sowing seeds of misogyny and violence of course.

The underlying idea of your argument, and it’s a weak argument, that these writers should not be regarded as a representation of women writers because of the tone or style of their writing, or even the language they use, is as old as the printing press. Many writers of gothic fiction were women who used male pen names (they are widely regarded as pioneers of gothic fiction), depicted far more gruesome and violent imagery, that women of the time were simply thought incapable of, so much so that many critics didn’t believe that Mary Shelley could have written Frankenstein -

The mother of Frankenstein – and science fiction

The daughter of feminist icon Mary Wollstonecraft and radical thinker William Godwin, Mary Shelley was destined for big things. Her stunning debut Frankenstein has enthralled for 200 years, and its origin – from a ghost story contest organised by Lord Byron in Geneva during 1816, ‘the year without a summer’ – has become legendary. In a “waking dream”, Shelley, then 18, saw “with shut eyes, but acute mental vision” the “pale student of the unhallowed arts kneeling beside the thing he had put together”. Her vision resulted in the Romantic era’s most recognisable work, which is often credited with establishing the science fiction genre in England’s literature. Shelley utilised Gothic devices to examine the corrupt nature of power, and was among the Gothic writers of her generation to feature ‘the double’, which reached its height with Robert Louis Stevenson’s The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Upon Frankenstein’s publication, critics were of the impression it was written by a man – Sir Walter Scott theorised that Mary’s husband Percy Bysshe Shelley was the thinker behind the pen – and when the novel’s true author was revealed, critics mostly ignored its politics, which examined the social, scientific and economic problems of Mary’s time.


Scream Queens: The Women Who Pioneered Gothic Literature


The only reason I’d hope anyone wouldn’t take your rogues gallery seriously is not because they’re a poor representation of women who may be accused of perpetuating violence against women, but they’re a poor representation of writers in any case, compared to far more accomplished writers who actually influenced society, as opposed to attempting simply to wind people up in an attempt to attract publicity for their latest work of fiction.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

And here is an interesting fact - I came upon all those quotes on the twitter timeline of a trans woman who was utterly horrified by them and wanted them to be made public.

Did she want them to be used in an argument on trans rights?

Let's just clear this up shall we?

Do you believe these quotes are representative of trans people as a whole?

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

I said ''children like them''. One of the issues with lauding celebrity trans kids simply for being trans is that it increases the number of children going forwards for treatment.

So it's a yes that for any trans child with a public presence, you will assume that they are going to go on puberty blockers and discuss the possible effects on their genitalia?

Cestmoi 111

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Also, of course sexuality and gender are not literally identical but about 99% of serious people understand why they are a part of LGBT.

Gentlemanne wrote: »

It is, we have had decades of LGBT organisations, activists and action and it has only been recently that there's been an attempt to splinter based on spurious pretence...

Gentlemanne wrote: »

...I think its fairly obvious that gay rights and trans rights are inextricably linked, and has been for decades...

LLMMLL wrote: »

Do you think the above is representative of cis people on boards?

If not then why do you think you can use individual boards posts as representative of trans people?

When a poster makes the above comments that Gentlemanne did, it’s relevant to show that on this very board, over a decade ago, there was no support, even from trans people, for a proposal that the LGB forum would be changed to include the T. Most posters in the thread were vehemently against it.

The wiki article from the time showed that not associating the T with LGB was definitely not isolated to Boards.