Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Talking about trying to completely steer a conversation down a one way street

I’m trying to figure out how you can actually be so oblivious to the fact that the overwhelming majority of the thread has been a concerted attempt to steer the conversation down the one way street of pointing out all the negative consequences of acknowledging that people who are transgender are entitled to equal recognition in Irish law and equal opportunities for representation and participation in Irish society.

LLMMLL

GreeBo wrote: »

Not all all. We all look back and cringe and decisions we made when we were immature and too heavily influenced by those other immature people around us.
Thankfully we can look back and laugh and move on and are not left with the life altering results.


Nope, but we should remove them from those that are still immature, especially when the stats show the number of children who go on to regret it.

This stuff should really be obvious tbh.
Do you let your pre-teens get tattoos or perhaps some scarring or branding? If not, why not?

But I look back at stuff I did in my 20s and cringe. Am I also to have medical decisions removed from me?

The issue is not whether teens or 20 year olds or 80 year olds should medically transition.

The issue you argued is that we can decide whether they have the capacity to consent to medical transition based on whatever sexual fantasies they have.

It's clearly a silly argument. If you believe teens should not medically transition you're entitled to that opinion. But trying to argue that a teens supposedly shameful sexual fantasies are evidence that teens shouldn't medically transition.....

LessOutragePlz

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Are there stats available to show the numbers of children who receive treatment, and the number of children who regret the treatment, and the number of children who are glad they were able to receive treatment? I don’t think the stats in any case would offer any insight into individual cases about whether or not the patient in any case was regarded as mature enough to make the decision for themselves. Generally there are a number of stakeholders involved in any decisions and having a supportive family network is crucial for positive outcomes of any treatment.

There may not be statistics available on the number of children that have transitioned and regret it but there are plenty of stories out there from people that do regret having done it. This obvisiously isn't representative of every child that has transitioned but it does highlight the fact that there are many children that have transitioned and regret it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzrz5ZbCQys

More stories here:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=transition+regret

Gatling

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

There may not be statistics available on the number of children that have transitioned and regret it but there they are plenty of stories out there from people that do regret having done it. This obvisiously isn't representative of every child that has transitioned but it does highlight the fact that there are many children that have transitioned and regret it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzrz5ZbCQys

More stories here:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=transition+regret

It will be denial and deflection with something along the lines of its the same as life saving cancer treatment for children ,yet many trans people still commit suicide even after fully transitioning and full gender reassignment .
But they will quote tavistock as evidence despite it being Proven tavistock being a ****hole science experiment targeted at vunerable Children and teens.

Or telling us women's rights are some how equated to trans rights even if means trampling over women's rights to suit a small cohort or men who claim to speak for the majority of women and trans people despite being neither women, female or trans themselves

Cestmoi 111

LLMMLL wrote: »

In that quote she talks of her shame. That the fantasies FROM HER TEEN YEARS were a form of penance and punishment. She talks of having been influenced by magazines into these ideas.

I had a reread of what Serano wrote. The shame that’s mentioned was that felt by the teenage Serano. There is no hint of current shame or trying to distance themselves from that fantasy. It is laid out in overly descriptive, salacious, and pornographic terms and its portrayal of women is just gross. Like I said before, some things are not worthy of defending.

I’ve embedded the stuff Serano wrote below. I’ve no doubt it was typed with one hand only.

Warning, it’s gross!

Gatling

Jayus I'm banning my daughter's from the internet after reading that ..

And they say teenage boys are horn dogs

volchitsa

That's creepy stuff. Any chance you could edit it to make it a bit smaller so it doesn't "leap out" at us quite so much?

Natterjack from Kerry

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m trying to figure out how you can actually be so oblivious to the fact that the overwhelming majority of the thread has been a concerted attempt to steer the conversation down the one way street of pointing out all the negative consequences of acknowledging that people who are transgender are entitled to equal recognition in Irish law and equal opportunities for representation and participation in Irish society.

I am no legal expert, but surely there is nothing whatsoever in Irish law that in anyway limits the equal opportunities for transgender people for representation and participation in Irish society ? Can you cite any example ???

volchitsa

Gatling wrote: »

Jayus I'm banning my daughter's from the internet after reading that ..

And they say boys are horn dogs

That's a boy though?

Gatling

volchitsa wrote: »

That's a boy though?

Trans ?

Cestmoi 111

volchitsa wrote: »

That's creepy stuff. Any chance you could edit it to make it a bit smaller so it doesn't "leap out" at us quite so much?

Yes sorry it came out massive! I’ve put it in a spoiler now but nothing seems to happen if I click it, can anyone else see it?

Cestmoi 111

Gatling wrote: »

Trans ?

Serano is a trans identified male, ie born male

Natterjack from Kerry

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

Serano is a trans identified male, ie born male

By that, do you mean they are a male who transitioned to 'female', but then wants to be a 'female' who identifies as male ? Whats the point ? Why not just accept they were male all along ?

LLMMLL

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

I had a reread of what Serano wrote. The shame that’s mentioned was that felt by the teenage Serano. There is no hint of current shame or trying to distance themselves from that fantasy. It is laid out in overly descriptive, salacious, and pornographic terms and its portrayal of women is just gross. Like I said before, some things are not worthy of defending.

I’ve embedded the stuff Serano wrote below. I’ve no doubt it was typed with one hand only.

Warning, it’s gross!

There is absolutely nothing in those quotes to indicate that serano has changed her mind on whether they were shameful. Describing something in detail does not equal approval. Take for example a celebrated work of fiction by a cis woman Hanya Yanagihara. Her novel A Little Life Contains graphic descriptions of the physical and sexual abuse a boy receives from.his early years up until his 20s.

Are we to believe from this that Yanagihara approves of this abuse? The suggestion is pure nonsense and it's clear the only reason someone would argue this is to smear trans people as fetishists.

GreeBo

One eyed Jack wrote: »

A
The most obvious reason why I personally would be against any of the above is because they generally look tacky.

As opposed to the deep voiced, Adams appled, bearded "ladies" we have seen in this very thread?

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing in those quotes to indicate that serano has changed her mind on whether they were shameful.

Well unless they make a statement you or no-one else can say what or what isn't true

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

Well unless they make a statement you or no-one else can say what or what isn't true

Then why are they being used as (faulty) evidence to smear trans people as fetishists.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

Then why are they being used as (faulty) evidence to smear trans people as fetishists.

But that's not true either ,you shouldn't be making claims that are either baseless or false .

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

But that's not true either ,you shouldn't be making claims that are either baseless or false .

It is true. What else is the purpose of misrepresenting 5 trans authors if not to make links between trans people and fetishism.

Necro

Mod:

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts permanently threadbanned for arguing with moderation on thread.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

It is true. What else is the purpose

Ask the poster in pm then .

We've seen enough feinting outrage in here

One eyed Jack

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

There may not be statistics available on the number of children that have transitioned and regret it but there are plenty of stories out there from people that do regret having done it. This obvisiously isn't representative of every child that has transitioned but it does highlight the fact that there are many children that have transitioned and regret it.

“Plenty of stories”, “many children”, you don’t see how that’s particularly vague at all? It gives us no indication whatsoever of how many children or adults there are who regret their decision to transition, whether it was social, medical or surgical transition they underwent or whether they had regrets simply because the outcomes were not as they expected. But, I’m going to be generous and suggest that of the thousands of people who began their transition as children, there may well be hundreds of adults who have regrets about their decision to transition in childhood. The medical and scientific community aren’t trying to keep a lid on the figures, they’re acutely aware of the fact that there are people who regret the outcomes of their decisions.

I’ll go as far as to say there are some medical professionals who have regrets of their own about the decisions they made and their own actions, to the point where the medical professionals themselves are having to come out in public and express their concerns in the face of people who are transgender lobbying for better healthcare on the basis that they argue that the medical profession are being irresponsible.

That was essentially the argument Kiera Bell’s counsel were making to the Courts - that Kiera Bell felt she hadn’t been questioned enough before making the decision to transition, a decision Kiera made at 16, meaning that even if at the time Kiera’s parents had not consented to the treatment, and Kiera had been adamant that they wanted the treatment, there would have been no reason for the Courts to intervene.

There’s nobody denying that the treatments are controversial, but it cannot be ignored at the same time that medical and surgical transition are only recommended in what are determined to be extreme circumstances, which is why it shouldn’t come as a shock to anyone that, and again I’m being generous, 90% of children who are diagnosed as experiencing gender dysphoria or gender incongruence, their distress is alleviated without the necessity for any medical or surgical intervention. Those figures however, of people who regret their decisions, or people who no longer experience gender dysphoria or do not require medical or surgical interventions, absolutely can not be used to suggest that the remaining 10% should be denied treatment which is considered safe, for which the evidence suggests overwhelmingly that it improves the patients quality of life dramatically. People who are opposed to the treatments tend to overlook this fact.

I’m very much in favour of the intervention of the Courts in cases where the patient is a minor under the age of 18 years, because not only does it engender a greater responsibility on the medical and clinical profession to be accountable for their decisions (in terms of recording patient sessions and so on so that the next time they’re audited, they can provide a comprehensive history and record of counselling sessions for each and every patient), but it also provides for greater examination of decisions which are made regarding the welfare of the patient, and allows for the patient to express themselves and have their opinions recorded and assessed by an independent arbiter to determine whether they actually have the capacity to give medical consent.

It would also be more likely to reveal whether a child was giving answers by rote in order to obtain treatment, or whether they were expressing an authentic desire to live as their preferred gender, with all the foreseeable positives and negatives that may entail. Patients can often be blinkered and see only positive outcomes, expecting that the medical profession are miracle workers. They’re not, and any responsible medical professional will always make it clear that they cannot guarantee any outcomes, and they are never prepared to take what they determine are unnecessary risks with their patients lives. The outcomes of Kiera’s case are undoubtedly unfortunate, but it would be unreasonable to argue that the treatment should be made unavailable to anyone on the basis that a minority of people who have undergone transition have regrets about their decisions, as though the evidence provided by that cohorts experiences should outweigh the evidence provided by the cohort whose experiences and quality of life has been improved by the treatments.

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

More stories here:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=transition+regret

“More stories here”, and a link to YouTube search results for “transition regret”? Mate, that’s just fcuking lazy, frankly :pac:

Again, I can acknowledge that there are hundreds, if not thousands of accounts on social media of people who have tried to reverse the effects of their transition, with mixed results (there is one person I’m aware of who transitioned, detransitioned, and then chose to transition again because they weren’t able to cope with the social consequences of their decision to detransition!), but they do not by any means counter the argument that the treatments are effective and lead to positive outcomes for the vast majority of patients who have undergone medical or surgical transition.

One eyed Jack

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

I am no legal expert, but surely there is nothing whatsoever in Irish law that in anyway limits the equal opportunities for transgender people for representation and participation in Irish society ? Can you cite any example ???

It’s true, not any more there isn’t, not since the enactment of the Gender Recognition Act in 2015 in Irish Law which recognised the right of everyone to be protected from discrimination on the basis of their gender identity. It’s enactment essentially granted everyone in Irish society legal recognition of their freedom and their right to be recognised by the State as their preferred gender, which in limited circumstances would be regarded as their sex.

Now people who are transgender are entitled to an equally crappy standard of public services as everyone else, whereas they could be lawfully discriminated against before the enactment of the Gender Recognition Act. On that basis, I don’t blame them for campaigning for appropriate healthcare and education and so on in various areas which they would benefit from, in the same way as I expect any other lobby group is entitled to do the same, as opposed to the basis of any groups campaign arguing for the continuing discrimination against any group in Irish society and thinking that would be regarded as a legitimate aim.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

“Plenty of stories”, “many children”, you don’t see how that’s particularly vague at all? It gives us no indication whatsoever of how many children or adults there are who regret their decision to transition,

And yet we get claims of the majority of trans people this and the majority of trans people that .
What's a majority exactly all we generally see is deflection and unvaried claim's and roundabout posts for page after page ,
You say people can become blinked so explain why tavistock staff were coaching children to ask for gender reassignment therapies including puberty blocker's at 10 years old ,
And they did prescribe puberty blocker's to Children despite it was claimed that they never gave out puberty blocker's , tavistock themselves stated they gave them to Children aged 10 years old and up .
Why would supposed children medical professionals be coaching children what to say and now to say it .

No Child should be coached by supposed medical professionals to ask for various treatments , including puberty blocker's and up to gender reassignment surgery ,

Children should be nurtured and cared for not experimented on then linking suicide threats if they don't get gender reassignment therapies ,this is why clinics like tavistock should be closed to children ,
Observation of children and allowing them to physically and mentally mature into adulthood where if they are mentally compitent to go though full transition then support them to make that change ,

But hands off Children ,let them have their childhood let them learn ,grow and explore and develop at their own pace and not be used for science experiments under the guise of identity ideology .

Beasty

Bambi wrote: »

Given that what you consider to be the far right is just normal people, it's safe to say that the far right has loads of gays in its ranks

While the trans activist scene is like flypaper for the unhinged

Threadbanned

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

And yet we get claims of the majority of trans people this and the majority of trans people that .
What's a majority exactly all we generally see is deflection and unvaried claim's and roundabout posts for page after page ,
You say people can become blinked so explain why tavistock staff were coaching children to ask for gender reassignment therapies including puberty blocker's at 10 years old ,
And they did prescribe puberty blocker's to Children despite it was claimed that they never gave out puberty blocker's , tavistock themselves stated they gave them to Children aged 10 years old and up .
Why would supposed children medical professionals be coaching children what to say and now to say it .

No Child should be coached by supposed medical professionals to ask for various treatments , including puberty blocker's and up to gender reassignment surgery ,

Children should be nurtured and cared for not experimented on then linking suicide threats if they don't get gender reassignment therapies ,this is why clinics like tavistock should be closed to children ,
Observation of children and allowing them to physically and mentally mature into adulthood where if they are mentally compitent to go though full transition then support them to make that change ,

But hands off Children ,let them have their childhood let them learn ,grow and explore and develop at their own pace and not be used for science experiments under the guise of identity ideology .

I agree with you that the Tavistock was a shìt show of epic proportions, the main reason for that was due to poor management, which is why they replaced the board of management, and some of the Trustees then decided to play politics in the media and tried to point fingers at anyone other than themselves, because they outright refused to acknowledge their part in the shìt show as being responsible for the oversight and management of the clinics under their purview.

I don’t agree with the second part of your argument which can essentially be summed up as “children must be allowed to continue to suffer so I can feel better about myself”, under the guise of pretending you’re actually concerned about the children involved while ignoring the fact that gender incongruence is a widely recognised medical condition, as opposed to your attempt to characterise the condition as the result of some fringe ideology. How do you expect them to learn if at the same time you don’t want them to learn that there are other people like them who experience the same feelings and thoughts as they do, that they’re not freaks of nature or a biological or evolutionary anomaly? You’re arguing essentially that the science should be hidden from them, thereby depriving them of the tools to learn and grow and explore and develop ideas and opinions of their own.

Hego Damask

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

I had a reread of what Serano wrote. The shame that’s mentioned was that felt by the teenage Serano. There is no hint of current shame or trying to distance themselves from that fantasy. It is laid out in overly descriptive, salacious, and pornographic terms and its portrayal of women is just gross. Like I said before, some things are not worthy of defending.

I’ve embedded the stuff Serano wrote below. I’ve no doubt it was typed with one hand only.

Warning, it’s gross!

Is there not institutions to throw these degenerates into ?

Necro

Hego Damask wrote: »

Is there not institutions to throw these degenerates into ?

Threadbanned

AllForIt

One can have a fetish for something that isn't sexual. This is what separates cross-dresser's, transgender people, drag queens etc, i.e. they are of a differing nature.

But I think of all those things in the same category, lets say status B.
They are on a level below male, female, heterosexual, homosexual, black, white (Status A).

When I said earlier trans people are not 'one of us' (gay demographic), I meant as much they are not on the same status level I proposed as much as they are obviously completely different things.

I think trans activists have been doing everything they can to elevate their status B to status A.

It is why they are so desperate to be aligned to the status A gay demographic.
It is why they have in recent years made up terms like 'gender identity', non- binary, and a raft of made up pronouns. It's all an attempt to elevate their 'thing' to status A.

I think the problem is, is that all this is working, (due in part to the influence of 'progressive' types) which is why we have posters like OEJ (who I think is genuinely coming from a good place), treating the transgender cause as if he's defending a status A cause. I think this is where people like him have gone wrong. I'm just using you as an example here OEJ of those who come at this from a human rights angle, but I think you are mistaken.

I would put issues of personality traits, in status B. Like for example a young man who wants to be considered muscular, who widens out his arms in public to create the illusion he is muscular when he isn't particularly.
To follow on that analogy, he may take steroids to enhance that look.
But it would be absurd to give that guy status A rights, and give him free steroids, because that's his internal muscular 'identity'.

So, to me it's absurd to give specific rights to people of status B. It's endless the amount of 'identities' that actually exist, and there seems to be more of them popping up all the time.
When you look at it the way I do now, it explains why LGBT went from LGBT+ to LGBTA to LGBTQ or whatever. It became a looser definition from status A to status B over time to include what are really just personality types of a kind.

This is why I object to the alignment of LGB and T+.

I've been thinking about this issue for quite some time since this thread appeared but I've pretty much made up my mind on it now. I hope noone finds it obnoxious of transphobic of me to to come to the conclusions I've come to. They are made in all sincerity and if one doesn't like it, disagree away.

Natterjack from Kerry

Thats a well formed view AllforIt and I would probably agree with most of it.

I think it is coherent with my view earlier that really the T has no affiliation with LGB other than as a minority. Either T and others have latched on to LGB to gain from its prominence to raise their own profile, or, the wider world has lazily lumped T and others into the alphabet soup as as a general catch all for assorted minorities. Or maybe it suits both parties.
LGB stems directly from sexual attraction or preference of a nature that might not be considered the majority 'straight'.
Trans does not naturally group with those. Whether of genetic origin, or one of psychiatric condition, it is of an entirely different nature to LGB.
How did it get tagged on - and it seems to me only in very recent years ?