Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Gentlemanne

From my experience, trans people and supporters are actually much more likely to intuit and encourage gender nonconformity such as a tomboy girl or a feminine boy.

The hysteria that they'll "make them trans" is in my opinion invented in the minds of Glinner types.

Bannasidhe

Gentlemanne wrote: »

From my experience, trans people and supporters are actually much more likely to intuit and encourage gender nonconformity such as a tomboy girl or a feminine boy.

The hysteria that they'll "make them trans" is in my opinion invented in the minds of Glinner types.

"make them trans" is up there with "turn them gay" - and people say there are no links. The link is in who hates both.

No one can make anyone trans, no more than they can turn anyone gay.
Some trans people know from the moment they realise there are 'boys' and 'girls' that they are in the wrong grouping, others take years to realise.
Some gay people know from the moment they understand the concept of 'liking that way' that the ones they 'like that way' are people who have the same gender as them, others take years to realise.

And yes, even within those minority groups there are people who for what ever reason make a mistake - these people generally (not always) have a persistent feeling that there is something 'wrong' and what they think is the solution turns out to be incorrect. In fact a lot of transgender people begin by thinking they are gay.

A big deal is made about those who detransition as if this 'proves' gender dysphoria is nonsense - well, a lot of people believe they are absolutely heterosexual and guess what...

Gentlemanne

I agree Bannasidhe, the parallels are very obvious to me.

A lot of homophobic tropes and "concerns" have been recycled with hardly a little bit of obfuscation. If you're going to act that way, at least be a little bit original!!

Reminds me of this comic I saw the other day - I'm not super fond of some of the message, but it is pretty funny and there may be some truth to it.

jam_mac_jam

Bannasidhe wrote: »

"make them trans" is up there with "turn them gay" - and people say there are no links. The link is in who hates both.

No one can make anyone trans, no more than they can turn anyone gay.
Some trans people know from the moment they realise there are 'boys' and 'girls' that they are in the wrong grouping, others take years to realise.
Some gay people know from the moment they understand the concept of 'liking that way' that the ones they 'like that way' are people who have the same gender as them, others take years to realise.

And yes, even within those minority groups there are people who for what ever reason make a mistake - these people generally (not always) have a persistent feeling that there is something 'wrong' and what they think is the solution turns out to be incorrect. In fact a lot of transgender people begin by thinking they are gay.

A big deal is made about those who detransition as if this 'proves' gender dysphoria is nonsense - well, a lot of people believe they are absolutely heterosexual and guess what...

The difficulties happen I think in children is that some may grow out of dysphoria and some may not.

So obviously you don't know that in advance. If you force a child who will not grow out of it to live with terrible mental pain. If you don't allow them puberty blockers.

Them again if a child can live with the body they are born with or they accept it and they shouldn't have transitioned then also you cause huge mental pain.

Its not clear cut. No destranitioners will not be everyone. And shouldn't be used to prove that gender dysphoria is not true. But it shows for some people that medical transition is not always the answer.

suicide_circus

Do any other types of "identity" require validation by the active participation and suspension of disbelief by others?

jam_mac_jam

Gentlemanne wrote: »

I agree Bannasidhe, the parallels are very obvious to me.

A lot of homophobic tropes and "concerns" have been recycled with hardly a little bit of obfuscation. If you're going to act that way, at least be a little bit original!!

Reminds me of this comic I saw the other day - I'm not super fond of some of the message, but it is pretty funny and there may be some truth to it.

I don't remember anybody ever mentioned lesbians in sports? Or lesbians taking drugs in childhood which may cause danger to their bones or fertility.

It seems just a way for to dismiss people's opinions and not bother to have a conversation. Oh obviously all homophobic. Even putting concerns in quotation marks.

It's all very dismissive. And doesn't really get anywhere.

Natterjack from Kerry

Gentlemanne wrote: »

I agree Bannasidhe, the parallels are very obvious to me.

A lot of homophobic tropes and "concerns" have been recycled with hardly a little bit of obfuscation. If you're going to act that way, at least be a little bit original!!

Reminds me of this comic I saw the other day - I'm not super fond of some of the message, but it is pretty funny and there may be some truth to it.

The comic highlights the critical difference, which cannot just be dismissed in its substance, nor a false analogy made that because people were wrong on other issues they must be wrong on trans : race or homosexual discrimination were discrimination based on characteristics that were not in dispute in themselves. Black and gay people clearly existed. Whether they should be discriminated against was the dispute. The key difference with trans, is that it is not accepted, in contrast to the undeniable evidence that someone's skin is black for example, that a transwoman is a woman, or a transman a man. This is what makes it an article of faith or an ideology. And many people do not accept it. But not accepting it does not equate to discrimination.

Cestmoi 111

Gentlemanne wrote: »

From my experience, trans people and supporters are actually much more likely to intuit and encourage gender nonconformity such as a tomboy girl or a feminine boy.

The hysteria that they'll "make them trans" is in my opinion invented in the minds of Glinner types.

Glinner types lol!

It’s not Glinner types that bring their little Tomboys to the doctor for a referral to Tavistock.

It’s not Glinner types saying this kind of stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJYQvGtVJdE

Kids are very impressionable. Take a look at r/egg to see the kind of trivial things that are used to tell young people they’re trans.

Take a look at r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/
It’s a meme subreddit but read the comments from the kids about how much they relate to these memes that are often about knowing you were trans cos you preferred your sisters clothes or liked cutesy animé girls etc.

There is a lot of online and peer pressure for children and teens to come out as trans.

Remember when there was a massive whitewashing about a year ago and Mermaids revised their guidelines that had previously stated that clothes and choice of toy may be an indication of transgenderism in children. It was even in the UK Department of Education guidelines on the matter for primary schools and was subsequently changed.

GreeBo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Saying a trans gender woman is really a man is both obnoxious and trans phobic. In exactly the same way as saying being homosexual is unnatural is obnoxious and homophobic.

"Transphobia is a collection of ideas and phenomena that encompass a range of negative attitudes, feelings or actions"
How is calling a biological man a man negative exactly?

"Unnatural" is clearly negative and derogatory, the two examples are completely different I'm afraid.

GreeBo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Forcing a child to do something they really do not want to do is being a bully in my book.

I'm guessing you don't have any children if you think you can rear them without getting them to do things they don't want to do.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The question now is how far does this go?
Do girls have to wear skirts/dresses and never trousers?
Can they play soccer?

Can boys study ballet?
Knit?

Seems to me that insisting children conform absolutely to what is deemed boys stuff and girls stuff is ideologically driven and cares not a jot for the mental health of individual children.

No more Tomboys in this ideological gender appropriate behaviour world. No more boys cooking away in the kitchen with mammy as they should be out kicking a ball whether they want to or not.

That sound like a miserable childhood for many a young 'un.

Boys can knit and girls can play with hammers, that doesn't mean the boys are girls or the girls are boys.
Acting like another gender doesn't change your gender anymore than acting Chinese makes you Asian.

jam_mac_jam

My son used to wear nail varnish and play with dolls. I didn't bat an eyelid. Just did his nails for him. Played tea parties with the dolls.

His Dad didn't like it but I honestly just thought he liked the bright colours.

I think you can read too much into things and some kids just like certain things.

I hated all girls things when younger. Spent my teenage years in black. Nobody said anything.

Cestmoi 111

Bannasidhe wrote: »

"make them trans" is up there with "turn them gay" - and people say there are no links. The link is in who hates both..

Gentlemanne wrote: »

I agree Bannasidhe, the parallels are very obvious to me.

A lot of homophobic tropes and "concerns" have been recycled with hardly a little bit of obfuscation. If you're going to act that way, at least be a little bit original!!
.

Since concerns on trans issues are being linked to homophobia and posters on this thread raise a lot of concerns, does that mean you think posters here are homophobic? If the link is in who “hates both”...

Gatling

GreeBo wrote: »

I'm guessing you don't have any children if you think you can rear them without getting them to do things they don't want to do.



Boys can knit and girls can play with hammers, that doesn't mean the boys are girls or the future are boys.
Acting like another gender doesn't change your gender anymore than acting Chinese makes you Asian.

They know this ,it's argument for argument sake

volchitsa

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Not going to answer the question I see.

How interesting that a person who has ranted on and on about protecting children and keeping ideology out of their lives is unable to confirm that they would not force a child to wear clothes or participate in an activity that would cause them serious emotional distress.

Forcing a child to do something they really do not want to do is being a bully in my book.

The question now is how far does this go?
Do girls have to wear skirts/dresses and never trousers?
Can they play soccer?

Can boys study ballet?
Knit?

Seems to me that insisting children conform absolutely to what is deemed boys stuff and girls stuff is ideologically driven and cares not a jot for the mental health of individual children.

No more Tomboys in this ideological gender appropriate behaviour world. No more boys cooking away in the kitchen with mammy as they should be out kicking a ball whether they want to or not.

That sound like a miserable childhood for many a young 'un.

But it's groups like Mermaids that have been teaching that one of the ways of identifying a trans child was them taking an interest in the "other" gender's toys and clothes. That's how Suzy Green "knew" her son was "really" a girl. I heard her say it in an iinterview.

Not conforming to ideologically gender appropriate behaviour is exactly what being trans is all about, accordng to her.

GreeBo

Gatling wrote: »

They know this ,it's argument for argument sake

It just seems like "you don't agree with me so you are bad".
I think it's incredibly dangerous and far too many people in authority are afraid to stand up and ask the awkward questions.

Natterjack from Kerry

GreeBo wrote: »

It just seems like "you don't agree with me so you are bad".
I think it's incredibly dangerous and far too many people in authority are afraid to stand up and ask the awkward questions.

Is it that there is an element of transpeople's position being week even in their own minds, that they need to seek external confirmation and reinforcement to validate their position ? if they dont get it - or even get the opposite - that leaves the internal stress unresolved and unconfirmed, provoking the desire to make accusations of bigotry, discrimination, or transphobia.
"Say you believe what I want you to confirm to me, or I will accuse you of being a nasty person, and throw in comparisons with racism and homophobia even if they were entirely different situations".

Cestmoi 111

volchitsa wrote: »

But it's groups like Mermaids that have been teaching that one of the ways of identifying a trans child was them taking an interest in the "other" gender's toys and clothes. That's how Suzy Green "knew" her son was "really" a girl. I heard her say it in an iinterview.

Not conforming to ideologically gender appropriate behaviour is exactly what being trans is all about, accordng to her.

Who can forget this little gem used by Mermaids


SG said in her TED talk that up until her child (who has since transitioned to Jackie) was 2 she thought she “had a very sensitive, quite effeminate, little boy who was probably gay”. Madness:rolleyes:

jam_mac_jam

Cestmoi 111 wrote: »

Who can forget this little gem used by Mermaids


SG said in her TED talk that up until her child (who has since transitioned to Jackie) was 2 she thought she “had a very sensitive, quite effeminate, little boy who was probably gay”. Madness:rolleyes:

Well according to that my son is a girl. Which is weird as now he conforms heavily with male stereotype such as weightlifting. When he was a child he was extremely soft for a boy and played with dolls. Very imaginative and artistic.

Where is lego on the scale. As that's what I played with. No interest in barbies.

It's almost like people don't always conform to stereotypes. And those stereotypes were breaking down but now are being reinforced by gender theory.

Quantum Erasure

Posted this yesterday but I think it got lost in the middle of a different discussion

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Just came across this in the 'wokism' thread, from Canada

Court to hear case of 6-year-old traumatized by teacher insisting ‘girls aren’t real’
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/court-to-hear-case-of-6-year-old-traumatized-by-teacher-insisting-girls-arent-real


On another occasion, the teacher drew a gender spectrum on the board and asked each student to identify where they fit on the spectrum. NB indicated that she was on the furthest end of the spectrum marked “girl.” The teacher then told the class that “girls are not real, and boys are not real”. This was extremely upsetting to NB.

NB went home and told her parents, repeatedly asking why her identity as a girl was “not real.” She stated that she was not sure if she wanted to be a mommy when she grew up, and asked if she could “go to the doctor” about this issue. NB also expressed feeling that she “had to do something” about the fact that she is a girl. This followed a lesson by the teacher on the concepts of gender spectrum and sex changes

.

jam_mac_jam

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Posted this yesterday but I think it got lost in the middle of a different discussion

This is theoretical unscientific politics and shouldn't be thought to six year olds. Girls and boys are real.

GreeBo

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Is it that there is an element of transpeople's position being week even in their own minds, that they need to seek external confirmation and reinforcement to validate their position ? if they dont get it - or even get the opposite - that leaves the internal stress unresolved and unconfirmed, provoking the desire to make accusations of bigotry, discrimination, or transphobia.
"Say you believe what I want you to confirm to me, or I will accuse you of being a nasty person, and throw in comparisons with racism and homophobia even if they were entirely different situations".

There seems to be no acceptance of the fact that I can disagree with the whole concept of trans without being transphobic.

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

There seems to be no acceptance of the fact that I can disagree with the whole concept of trans without being transphobic.

I'm in the same boat but thankfully I don't identify as transphobic so others can't deny my "lived experience" and say that I am.

Natterjack from Kerry

GreeBo wrote: »

There seems to be no acceptance of the fact that I can disagree with the whole concept of trans without being transphobic.

To an extent yes. But I would draw a distinction between 'the whole concept of trans', and trans as being a real sex/gender transition. It depends on how one defines trans.
'Trans' people undoubtedly exist and deserve to live their lives as they wish, and according to whatever they believe themselves to be. So people wishing to change their names, adopt the dress, lifestyle, pronouns, and whatever procedures or drugs the medical world can offer them should be free to do so without discrimination.
But 'trans', as being a full acceptance by the wider world that gender/sex is a spectrum, and that people can really be a woman in a mans body and so 'become' a woman to align a discrepancy, is not going to happen. Conforming to what is seen as the delusion of the transperson by others is simply unrealistic. Indulgence goes so far, but expecting people to ignore their own mind is never going to wash.

Put it this way - the non transperson or non trans believing person must accept that the transperson are entitled to see themselves any way they want. Equally, the transperson must accept that non trans people by and large are entitled to see the trans people any way they want.

GreeBo

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Put it this way - the non transperson or non trans believing person must accept that the transperson are entitled to see themselves any way they want. Equally, the transperson must accept that non trans people by and large are entitled to see the trans people any way they want.

I have zero issues with men who act more feminine than the norm or men who might be considered more feminine. My issue is in accepting that then deciding they are female makes them female.

Anyone is entitled to act whatever way they want and believe whatever they want. The problems arise when their beliefs impact me.
If I book an appointment with a male doctor I don't necessarily expect him to be 6ft with broad shoulders and a tan, equally I don't expect him to be wearing a dress and makeup. I'd naturally expect something in the middle. What I could never expect or accept is him having a vagina.

This is the argument I have repeatedly made about how homosexuality is internal versus transgenderism is external. A gay doctor would have zero impact on me, how would I even know?

Bannasidhe

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

The difficulties happen I think in children is that some may grow out of dysphoria and some may not.

So obviously you don't know that in advance. If you force a child who will not grow out of it to live with terrible mental pain. If you don't allow them puberty blockers.

Them again if a child can live with the body they are born with or they accept it and they shouldn't have transitioned then also you cause huge mental pain.

Its not clear cut. No destranitioners will not be everyone. And shouldn't be used to prove that gender dysphoria is not true. But it shows for some people that medical transition is not always the answer.

Of course using such medications is not a thing to be taken lightly. I don't think any one who would call themselves a trans Ally here has said it is.



However, this whole puberty blockers things is, imo, being waved around as anti-trans folks know it is a button pusher.


Reading their "shock horror ermahgwad side effects of these yokes posts" one would be forgiven for thinking the usual scenario is

"boy child say I think I am a girl" and before you can say buy that frock they are on puberty blockers.


That is simply not the case.


Puberty blockers are prescribed when medical practitioners are of the opinion that the benefits outweigh the side effects - which is standard with every single prescription issued, especially to children.


The questions include : will delaying puberty until such time as this pre-pubescent child is emotionally mature enough to deal with puberty and all that entails for their mental health vs body image be of benefit?

Give the child a chance to think, to be in their body, and yes, in some cases accept their body as 'right' for them.


Buying time for a child to acquire emotional maturity is the exact same reason they are prescribed for children with early on-set puberty. And they have the same side effects.



It is not an everlasting thing, nor is it intended to be, it is device aimed at easing psychological turmoil in an emotionally immature child which has to be approved by that child's parent(s)/guardians who are free to refuse.



Those complaining about puberty blockers are not only acting like they are given out like smarties, but also that they know better for each individual child than that child's parents and Doctors.



I didn't have a child who had issues around gender dysphoria but I did have one that at a vulnerable age developed a serious skin condition that really impacted on his mental health. I was advised to put him on a particular medication that would help but it had some possible side effects that were on the (in my opinion) nasty side. I thought long and hard about it, including discussing it with him. We decided to put that on the "options" shelf and see how things went. He never went on them but knowing it was there helped.



The parent's of children for whom puberty blockers are being considered - for whatever reason- equally love their children, want the best for them, while also trying to balance short-term vs long-term repercussions for them.
For example - should it be the case that down the road, when medically appropriate, the now adult biologically 'male' former 'child' is considering surgically transitioning - which would remove that penis so many here have an issue with - due to the side effects of puberty blockers vaginoplasy is not as successful as it could be had the medication not been taken.



Personally I find the implication that the parent's of children diagnosed with possible gender dysphoria who seek advice from medical professionals aren't doing their best in difficult circumstances to be vile.



For anyone interested this article discusses the pro/cons https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2444866417301101



Once again I would like to say I am neither for or against. I believe it should be considered on a case by case basis, and the decision makers untimely are the child's parents being advised by qualified medical practitioners.

Bannasidhe

GreeBo wrote: »

I have zero issues with men who act more feminine than the norm or men who might be considered more feminine. My issue is in accepting that then deciding they are female makes them female.

Anyone is entitled to act whatever way they want and believe whatever they want. The problems arise when their beliefs impact me.
If I book an appointment with a male doctor I don't necessarily expect him to be 6ft with broad shoulders and a tan, equally I don't expect him to be wearing a dress and makeup. I'd naturally expect something in the middle. What I could never expect or accept is him having a vagina.

This is the argument I have repeatedly made about how homosexuality is internal versus transgenderism is external. A gay doctor would have zero impact on me, how would I even know?

That whole post is confusing me tbh.


A male Dr in a dress would upset you as he might have a vagina?


If you book an appointment with a male doctor you will not be given an appointment with transgender woman doctor, however you may get a transgender male doctor who let's be honest is not going to be wearing a dress and make- up now is he?



You go in and see Dr Someone in a suit with a beard - how do you know they don't have a vagina?


I don't tend to care what genitals my Doctors have as long as they are good at their job. But that's just me.

jam_mac_jam

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Of course using such medications is not a thing to be taken lightly. I don't think any one who would call themselves a trans Ally here has said it is.



However, this whole puberty blockers things is, imo, being waved around as anti-trans folks know it is a button pusher.


Reading their "shock horror ermahgwad side effects of these yokes posts" one would be forgiven for thinking the usual scenario is

"boy child say I think I am a girl" and before you can say buy that frock they are on puberty blockers.


That is simply not the case.


Puberty blockers are prescribed when medical practitioners are of the opinion that the benefits outweigh the side effects - which is standard with every single prescription issued, especially to children.


The questions include : will delaying puberty until such time as this pre-pubescent child is emotionally mature enough to deal with puberty and all that entails for their mental health vs body image be of benefit?

Give the child a chance to think, to be in their body, and yes, in some cases accept their body as 'right' for them.


Buying time for a child to acquire emotional maturity is the exact same reason they are prescribed for children with early on-set puberty. And they have the same side effects.



It is not an everlasting thing, nor is it intended to be, it is device aimed at easing psychological turmoil in an emotionally immature child which has to be approved by that child's parent(s)/guardians who are free to refuse.



Those complaining about puberty blockers are not only acting like they are given out like smarties, but also that they know better for each individual child than that child's parents and Doctors.



I didn't have a child who had issues around gender dysphoria but I did have one that at a vulnerable age developed a serious skin condition that really impacted on his mental health. I was advised to put him on a particular medication that would help but it had some possible side effects that were on the (in my opinion) nasty side. I thought long and hard about it, including discussing it with him. We decided to put that on the "options" shelf and see how things went. He never went on them but knowing it was there helped.



The parent's of children for whom puberty blockers are being considered - for whatever reason- equally love their children, want the best for them, while also trying to balance short-term vs long-term repercussions for them.
For example - should it be the case that down the road, when medically appropriate, the now adult biologically 'male' former 'child' is considering surgically transitioning - which would remove that penis so many here have an issue with - due to the side effects of puberty blockers vaginoplasy is not as successful as it could be had the medication not been taken.



Personally I find the implication that the parent's of children diagnosed with possible gender dysphoria who seek advice from medical professionals aren't doing their best in difficult circumstances to be vile.



For anyone interested this article discusses the pro/cons https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2444866417301101



Once again I would like to say I am neither for or against. I believe it should be considered on a case by case basis, and the decision makers untimely are the child's parents being advised by qualified medical practitioners.

I agree. It must be a difficult decision to make for parents. I wouldn't be for or against myself. It's up to doctors who know more than me on this. I don't feel I know enough to be either way.

But again while one side is obsessed with the dangers, one side is describing not using the affirmative model as conversion therapy when some may benefit from therapy rather then medication.

I think there is an over focus on extremes on both sides.

But I completely agree with you that its case by case basis. Thanks for the article. Will have a read.

aidoh

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Posted this yesterday but I think it got lost in the middle of a different discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum Erasure View Post
Just came across this in the 'wokism' thread, from Canada

Court to hear case of 6-year-old traumatized by teacher insisting ‘girls aren’t real’
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/co...rls-arent-real


On another occasion, the teacher drew a gender spectrum on the board and asked each student to identify where they fit on the spectrum. NB indicated that she was on the furthest end of the spectrum marked “girl.” The teacher then told the class that “girls are not real, and boys are not real”. This was extremely upsetting to NB.

NB went home and told her parents, repeatedly asking why her identity as a girl was “not real.” She stated that she was not sure if she wanted to be a mommy when she grew up, and asked if she could “go to the doctor” about this issue. NB also expressed feeling that she “had to do something” about the fact that she is a girl. This followed a lesson by the teacher on the concepts of gender spectrum and sex changes

It takes an awful lot for a post from a complete stranger on the internet to make me feel antything.

But I am heartbroken thinking about that kid.

Gatling

aidoh wrote: »

It takes an awful lot for a post from a complete stranger on the internet to make me feel antything.

But I am heartbroken thinking about that kid.

I'm aware of a similar situation in a primary school here , where one particular educator decided gender doesn't exist in their particular class ,mam and dad are called carers and there is no boy's or girl's in class only them or they .

So much for teaching the carriculm ,

GreeBo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That whole post is confusing me tbh.


A male Dr in a dress would upset you as he might have a vagina?

Clearly you are confused. I'd suggest rereading it if that's what you took from it.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If you book an appointment with a male doctor you will not be given an appointment with transgender woman doctor, however you may get a transgender male doctor who let's be honest is not going to be wearing a dress and make- up now is he?

which is exactly the point, I want a biological male doctor is I make an appointment with a male doctor. Would you have no issue if your 12 year old daughter needed to talk to a doctor about a vaginal infection and a 6'6 muscular person with a visible beard and deep voice appeared? Do you think your daughter would have an issue showing her genitals to such a person?

Also, why couldn't a trans man wear a dress exactly? Can you elaborate on this please? Plenty of men wear dresses?

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You go in and see Dr Someone in a suit with a beard - how do you know they don't have a vagina?

Maybe I have special powers, but I seldom see a trans person without knowing their sex.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't tend to care what genitals my Doctors have as long as they are good at their job. But that's just me.

Excellent deflection, but I'd rather get advice on an issue with my penis from someone who actually has one, especially if that's what I've specifically asked for.