Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

Is that allowed? Can you do multiple gender declarations back and forth?

I done alot of googling on this....deosnt seem set out/time limit between changing back,which just seems lunacy

jam_mac_jam

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I done alot of googling on this....deosnt seem set out/time limit between changing back,which just seems lunacy

Well you would have to allow people to change back as some people transition back to their original gender. If transition was not right for them.

There is a sureddit on reddit for it. It's a fairly heartbreaking situation.

I am not sure how common it is. I would imagine fairly rare but very sad what they put their bodies through. And in some cases without realising the full implications of what they would go through.

I

ingalway

Deleted User wrote: »

As ive said,if they cop on and not try force their views and use commonsense about certain situations??


Isnt the most famous international sporting case about transgender in texas of a female to male wrestler who isnt allowed into male competitions,but is dosed up on testosterone and cleaning up??

Where should he/she/whatever wrestle?


Like.seems to me,yous are screaming woman being oppressed to shout down any discussion about this.....is this in effect any differemt than trannies screaming transphobe at people for saying women dont have penis??

Not sure who the wrestler is, the only one I heard about is Fallon Fox who is a male competing as a female and causing very serious injuries and delighting in it.

In the past we did use the 'cop on and commonsense' approach but that is simply not possible anymore with not only the huge increase in people suddenly feeling they are females, not to mention the massive increase in young children, but the ridiculous self ID laws making it impossible to question who is/should be in female only spaces without being called transphobes, TERFs. Women should not have to police their own single sex spaces for themselves and young girls to be in and feel safe in

I don't think women are screaming they are being oppressed. Women want to be able to freely discuss these issues, that is simply freedom of speech. But there are many oppressed women around the world, oppressed by their sex.

I think the process has kinda outpaced the reality. I could download a form and switch to being a woman but I don't think the reality on the ground is going to let me walk into a ladies changing room with a piece of paper saying I'm a woman. Most people won't know / accept the piece of paper. But does it open the door for vexatious people to do things like that? Sure.

ingalway

ingalway wrote: »

Not sure who the wrestler is, the only one I heard about is Fallon Fox who is a male competing as a female and causing very serious injuries and delighting in it.

A simple google tells me,its mack beggs is wrestler name

In the past we did use the 'cop on and commonsense' approach but that is simply not possible anymore with not only the huge increase in people suddenly feeling they are females, not to mention the massive increase in young children, but the ridiculous self ID laws making it impossible to question who is/should be in female only spaces without being called transphobes, TERFs. Women should not have to police their own single sex spaces for themselves and young girls to be in and feel safe in

How.many of these gender certs have been issued??like i dont want to dismiss yous or otherside out of hand,but this whole issue is overblown compared to data emerging....nor have i met/heard this subject discussed in real life..

I don't think women are screaming they are being oppressed. Women want to be able to freely discuss these issues, that is simply freedom of speech. But there are many oppressed women around the world, oppressed by their sex.

It all sounds so lovely and easy "to let em at it" - if only all the uppity women would just pipe down, be kind and let em at it the world would be a much better place.

Not for women it wouldn't

Like i do apoligise,if i over interpeted this?....like hiding behind woman being oppressed in a 3rd world country to try shut down discussion on this,is really poor form and overly emotive imo,.


Im glad to hear from both sides as regards this issue

suicide_circus

I'm very aware that i may one day look back at my current misgivings about Self ID with embarrassment but i can only operate within my own intellect. I may "grow" beyond my current understanding of biological reality but that will involve some really compelling arguments that i havent heard yet.

jam_mac_jam

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A simple google tells me,its mack beggs is wrestler name



How.many of these gender certs have been issued??like i dont want to dismiss yous or otherside out of hand,but this whole issue is overblown compared to data emerging....nor have i met/heard this subject discussed in real life..





Like i do apoligise,if i over interpeted this?....like hiding behind woman being oppressed in a 3rd world country to try shut down discussion on this,is really poor form and overly emotive imo,.


Im glad to hear from both sides as regards this issue

I am sure the numbers in Ireland are tiny. The estimate of transgender people is less than one per cent.

Is the issue overblown. Yes, probably. Does that mean there is no issue? I don't know.

Cilldara_2000

Deleted User wrote: »

How.many of these gender certs have been issued??like i dont want to dismiss yous or otherside out of hand,but this whole issue is overblown compared to data emerging....nor have i met/heard this subject discussed in real life..

I was thinking the same here myself reading the thread. Huge amount of people losing their minds over something so rare it's almost a statistical non-entity.

As of July 2018 there were 297. This article says 99 had been issued in 2017: https://www.thejournal.ie/gender-recognition-act-4111519-Jul2018/. So roughly 100 per year. A drop in the ocean.

A handful of outliers in women's sports or that crank in Canada with the waxing who was rightfully told to GTFO by the Canadian legal system are being held up as typical of the whole transgender population. I don't want to write off people's concerns but I really wish so many people were genuinely concerned with equality. The world would be a much better place.

nolivesmatter

mohawk wrote: »

Transsexual is no longer the accepted term when referring to transgender people. Your use of such a word would indicate that you haven’t read much about the topic.
I and others on the thread use the words trans or transgender as they are the terms preferred by trans people themselves.

It's only a matter of time before those words are no longer accepted either.

CtevenSrowder

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

I was thinking the same here myself reading the thread. Huge amount of people losing their minds over something so rare it's almost a statistical non-entity.

As of July 2018 there were 297. This article says 99 had been issued in 2017: https://www.thejournal.ie/gender-recognition-act-4111519-Jul2018/. So roughly 100 per year. A drop in the ocean.

A handful of outliers in women's sports or that crank in Canada with the waxing who was rightfully told to GTFO by the Canadian legal system are being held up as typical of the whole transgender population. I don't want to write off people's concerns but I really wish so many people were genuinely concerned with equality. The world would be a much better place.

The outliers are not being held up as typical of the whole transgender population. That is an incorrect characterisation of the majority of points being put forth.

km991148

nolivesmatter wrote: »

It's only a matter of time before those words are no longer accepted either.

Why do you say that?

Last post from me. Do I think it's open to abuse to be able to download a form and switch gender? Yeah.

But, I'm also onboard that it makes it very easy for genuine folks.

I guess it can be two things.

Rodin

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I am sure the numbers in Ireland are tiny. The estimate of transgender people is less than one per cent.

Is the issue overblown. Yes, probably. Does that mean there is no issue? I don't know.

Id say it's less than 0.1 or 0.01% if not less

Rodin

Without meaning to be offensive, anyone who tells me that a male can become a female, I give as much notice of their opinions as I do a flat earther.... the science just doesn't support their view.

Gruffalux

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A simple google tells me,its mack beggs is wrestler name



How.many of these gender certs have been issued??like i dont want to dismiss yous or otherside out of hand,but this whole issue is overblown compared to data emerging....nor have i met/heard this subject discussed in real life..





Like i do apoligise,if i over interpeted this?....like hiding behind woman being oppressed in a 3rd world country to try shut down discussion on this,is really poor form and overly emotive imo,.


Im glad to hear from both sides as regards this issue

The thrust of your argument appears to be shush now it is only a drop in the ocean.
Well as a woman I will not shush now when the drop in the ocean is used to start calling me a person with a cervix.
And I will not shush when someone insists biological sex can in actuality be changed by mere self declaration.
I will also not shush and lap up the newspeak whereby the national media issue stories alerting the public to the release of a dangerous young girl who has vowed to rape and kill other girls. For a week or so I was really confused about that story - it had me a bit wtf like, a vulnerable girl released from care and determined to rape other girls. Until it became eventually clear that this was politically correct craziness being channeled through the national media.

More than 100 children from Ireland have been treated in the UK with the experimental affirmation approach which has irreversible effects on their bodies. More are now being treated in Dublin. If the same number of children were treated for say asthma with a modality that ultimately caused sterility, impotency, loss of bone density, constraint in brain development, increase in cardiovascular risk etc, what do you think would be the response to those who say shush now, it is only a small number statistically..

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

For me probably when the person comes out. My friend came out as a trans male in an all girls school run by Nuns when he was 16. I met one of the Nuns at the time who was his teacher and she was just amazingly supportive and straightaway accepting. Even nuns can accept at the stage of coming out.

For me. That would be when to refer to them as their preferred pronouns.

But obviously, they're not actually a woman.
Maybe for some 'TRAs' they are, and always were a woman, before they themselves decided.

But for those who believe "trans women are woman", at what stage does the man actually become the woman?

Can one become "more woman".
Is a post-op SRS transwoman more woman than one contemplating hormone treatment?

mohawk

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

I was thinking the same here myself reading the thread. Huge amount of people losing their minds over something so rare it's almost a statistical non-entity.

As of July 2018 there were 297. This article says 99 had been issued in 2017: https://www.thejournal.ie/gender-recognition-act-4111519-Jul2018/. So roughly 100 per year. A drop in the ocean.

A handful of outliers in women's sports or that crank in Canada with the waxing who was rightfully told to GTFO by the Canadian legal system are being held up as typical of the whole transgender population. I don't want to write off people's concerns but I really wish so many people were genuinely concerned with equality. The world would be a much better place.

I don’t disagree with most of what your saying. If the numbers are so small why is the word woman being replaced with things like menstrator, vagina people, birthing bodies etc. The same isn’t happening with the word man.
It’s one thing to be more inclusive and use language such as women and transmen. So that your target audience know your talking to them. Why is the word man acceptable and not the word woman?

Annasopra

suicide_circus wrote: »

Is that allowed? Can you do multiple gender declarations back and forth?

With Ministerial approval

Annasopra

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I am sure the numbers in Ireland are tiny. The estimate of transgender people is less than one per cent.

Is the issue overblown. Yes, probably. Does that mean there is no issue? I don't know.

422 (2018 figures published) people in the country have certificates out of 4757976 (2016 census) - a lot less than 1%

Gruffalux

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

422 (2018 figures published) people in the country have certificates out of 4757976 (2016 census) - a lot less than 1%

Have the 2 trans people in the women's prison in Limerick got GR Certs?

Annasopra

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

For me. That would be when to refer to them as their preferred pronouns.

But obviously, they're not actually a woman.
Maybe for some 'TRAs' they are, and always were a woman, before they themselves decided.

But for those who believe "trans women are woman", at what stage does the man actually become the woman?

Can one become "more woman".
Is a post-op SRS transwoman more woman than one contemplating hormone treatment?

I also recognise that surgery is an extremely difficult process and many trans people cant have surgery for health reasons

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I also recognise that surgery is an extremely difficult process and many trans people cant have surgery for health reasons

Agree. Nor should a transgender person be regarded any differently for not undergoing SRS.
Its a massive step.

That said.
For TRAs, when does the man become the woman?

keano_afc

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Agree. Nor should a transgender person be regarded any differently for not undergoing SRS.
Its a massive step.

That said.
For TRAs, when does the man become the woman?

As soon as they say so.

Sardonicat

Gruffalux wrote: »

Have the 2 trans people in the women's prison in Limerick got GR Certs?

The 'vulnerable young woman with an expressed desire to rape women" does. I dont know about the other one.

manonboard

Rodin wrote: »

Without meaning to be offensive, anyone who tells me that a male can become a female, I give as much notice of their opinions as I do a flat earther.... the science just doesn't support their view.

I'd like to query you on this if its ok.

I'm a supporter of trans rights and gender identity being choosable.
I had a female friend, always seemed a bit unfitting to their role. They transitioned. They're a man now. They seem happy. Just spends a bit of time trying to be a bit more manly to fit in with the crowd/stereotype.

I find in the conversation that something that keeps getting made one thing, that i think is two. The gender (our role) in society is largely defined by the sex of the person, but why is there an issue with someone choosing a different gender (role) and being aware they have female/male biological components.

I think it affects things like sports etc, but what makes it such a big deal? Why can someone just choose to live as a man or woman, and be aware that they also came from a different biological body than usually is defined as such?
Why is gender roles being discouraged because someone has the non usual body to begin with?

Wibbs

mohawk wrote: »

Why is the word man acceptable and not the word woman?

Because the vast majority of TRA cranks calling for blood are M-F Transgenders. F-M folks seem to just get on with it and don't go flipping out all the time.

Maybe testosterone is part of it? Contrary to popular belief angry, irritable men are more likely to have lower testosterone. In studies of hypogonadal men, that is men with low test because of illness, age etc their mood massively improved when given hormone replacement therapy. Oddly enough oestrogen may raise aggression. In rodent models anyway. When male mice were engineered to not respond to the small amounts of oestrogen in their blood they became less aggressive.

We're still working out how these systems work in the sexes and they work in different ways, so adding oestrogen to a male system, while removing testosterone is a running experiment in who the hell knows. Same for adding testosterone and removing oestrogen in a female system. It's not nearly so simple as "add testosterone get man". These are extremely balanced systems that have evolved over millions of years and evolve through our lifetimes.

Old article here. I'll try and dig up more recent stuff.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Because the vast majority of TRA cranks calling for blood are M-F Transgenders. F-M folks seem to just get on with it and don't go flipping out all the time.

Becoming a trans man, because of biology, doesn't bestow any physical "advantage" to an average woman; a trans man would be unable to excel in mens sports, and would not be regarded as a threat to security and safety of men.

Vice versa is certainly an issue, as is the usurpation of language "people with cervixes" etc.

Gruffalux

manonboard wrote: »

I'd like to query you on this if its ok.

I'm a supporter of trans rights and gender identity being choosable.
I had a female friend, always seemed a bit unfitting to their role. They transitioned. They're a man now. They seem happy. Just spends a bit of time trying to be a bit more manly to fit in with the crowd/stereotype.

I find in the conversation that something that keeps getting made one thing, that i think is two. The gender (our role) in society is largely defined by the sex of the person, but why is there an issue with someone choosing a different gender (role) and being aware they have female/male biological components.

I think it affects things like sports etc, but what makes it such a big deal? Why can someone just choose to live as a man or woman, and be aware that they also came from a different biological body than usually is defined as such?
Why is gender roles being discouraged because someone has the non usual body to begin with?

When you hesitate at sport you fail the purity test. Sorry.

No one sane really gives a damn about gender "roles" anymore. It is only a certain odd selection of people who think a boy child who likes long hair and a skirt is thus a girl. I find that bizarre. Especially since I raised a boy who wore what the hell he liked. I know grown men who wear skirts and paint their nails. Big tough raucous guys. I know women who dig deep ditches and haul wheelbarrows all day long for a living. Gender expression as falling along biological sex lines is really square and passè. High heels maketh the woman it seems - come the fcuk on. I have never owned a pair.
I saw a transwoman on Twitter the other day sigh happily that they had fulfilled a childhood dream by having a girly slumber party. They compared breasts and clit sizes and spooned and cuddled. Words fail me

Now we are to believe that sex is a social construct. Nope. No. And nuh huh. Not I.

CtevenSrowder

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Agree. Nor should a transgender person be regarded any differently for not undergoing SRS.
Its a massive step.

That said.
For TRAs, when does the man become the woman?

He won't give you a straight answer. It's why these threads turn to farce. You spend ages and ages trying to get straight answers to simple questions.

IAMAMORON has yet still to answer what rights transgender people are being denied, and to give evidence for his claim that transpeople are more 'passive'.

CtevenSrowder

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

He won't give you a straight answer. It's why these threads turn to farce. You spend ages and ages trying to get straight answers to simple questions.

IAMAMORON has yet still to answer what rights transgender people are being denied, and to give evidence for his claim that transpeople are more 'passive'.

That "lady" who threatened to put Ben Shapiro in an ambulance was passive.
The "m'aam" who tore up a gamestop was passive.