Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

km991148

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That really is clutching at straws.

Lol ok my mistake, it's all bad, let me go and find every clip from Twitter that paints any trans issue in a negative light... I'll get on board..

jam_mac_jam

km991148 wrote: »

Lol ok my mistake, it's all bad, let me go and find every clip from Twitter that paints any trans issue in a negative light... I'll get on board..

Well post something positive then rather then just moaning about everyone else doing it wrong.

km991148

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think you're steering close to the "X identity group is better than not X" here, which is not only not true, but is actively harmful to any attempts to give a particular group equal opportunities in society.

Do you also think that the "journey of self discovery" of young detransitioned women, who now live their lives with permanent facial hair, deep voices, mastectomy scars and so on, is a positive?

That's your interpretation. My statement is nothing to do with Identity politics or saying that any group of people are better than any other. I tried to make that clear. I'm sorry that I seem to have failed at that.

But there you go straight in with a negative as if my point excludes such a thing. I don't know is the answer. I don't know anyone who has detransitioned. I'm not about to start a game of contrived examples or extremities. My comments doesn't deny that there are obvious difficulties for some or challenges in society.

It was only regarding that we have people saying it's impossible to imagine that there's is anything positive to say about trans or being trans whereas I'm sure that there are some that would celebrate it or be happy. And I gave one example if what I could imagine some to experience.

Of course there are others who experience differently or who made a mistake or wished they weren't trans or had transitioned but that wasn't my point (nor excluded by it).

km991148

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Well post something positive then rather then just moaning about everyone else doing it wrong.

Are you having a laugh? I literally just did and straight away it's mocked.

I'm not here to represent the trans community. My "moaning" is really just calling out unsubstantiated claims or exaggeration. There is little motivation to engage much further in this thread.

Probes

Probes wrote: »

My personal belief is pretty simple, it’s that it’s a positive in that someone is able to live their life the way they want to and to pursue some form of happiness.

Okay, but what about when it doesn't lead to some form of happiness? What about when it leads to regretful, post-surgery, post-hormone detransition? What about when it's not "true" gender dysphoria but instead the under-explored "social contagion" type, which seems to be more likely to result in regret if treated with "affirmation"?

I have as much to say about trans people as I have to say about non-trans people, which is that they contain multitudes and I wouldn't want to make any positive or negative judgments on the individual without knowing about them.

But this thread is about gender identity, not "what do you think of trans people as people". So it's more likely to be edge cases that get discussed, just the same as when you're discussing any social issue. Just because we discuss and debate domestic violence a lot in society doesn't mean that happy and non-violent partnerships don't exist—the same way that just because we discuss detransition, natal male criminals using trans identity as cover, women's refuges and so on, doesn't mean that the majority of trans people are not perfectly happy, law-abiding citizens just looking to live their lives.

I'm sure most trans people (though perhaps not most Trans Rights Activists) would want those edge cases to be discussed, and to find workable solutions that uphold the most dignity possible without negating long-standing safeguarding measures and so on.

km991148

km991148 wrote: »

It was only regarding that we have people saying it's impossible to imagine that there's is anything positive to say about trans or being trans whereas I'm sure that there are some that would celebrate it or be happy. And I gave one example if what I could imagine some to experience.

Fair enough.

FWIW I don't have anything positive to say about non-trans people I know nothing about, either.

I could tell you positive (and negative) things about individual trans people, but they wouldn't be related in any way to their trans identity.

km991148

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fair enough.

FWIW I don't have anything positive to say about non-trans people I know nothing about, either.

I could tell you positive (and negative) things about individual trans people, but they wouldn't be related in any way to their trans identity.

Yeah and this is the thing. There are plenty of "trans" examples posted here- one the other day about being called sir in a fast food restaurant.

It wasn't a trans issue at all, but someone acting like a dick. Dicks are dicks and it's just noise in a thread like this.

AllForIt

km991148 wrote: »

It wasn't a trans issue at all, but someone acting like a dick. Dicks are dicks and it's just noise in a thread like this.

I think it's what she said, rarther than how she said it, is what makes the video relevant.

km991148

AllForIt wrote: »

I think it's what she said, rarther than how she said it, is what makes the video relevant.

A badly cropped video where there had obviously been some altercation before. No I don't think the 'what' mattered. I think you have a video of someone acting like an arsehole. When acting like an arsehole any words are fair game.

And now it looks like I'm defending the video or a position on it. I'm not, the whole thing looked out of proportion and a bit of a ****show.

One eyed Jack

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Well post something positive then rather then just moaning about everyone else doing it wrong.

To be fair to km, he did post something that could be regarded as a positive, depending upon one’s perspective of course - they have a unique perspective that someone who isn’t transgender doesn’t have. The idea of having a unique perspective isn’t limited to being transgender, but searching for something positive to say about something which is generally regarded in a negative light is always going to be difficult.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But this thread is about gender identity, not "what do you think of trans people as people". So it's more likely to be edge cases that get discussed, just the same as when you're discussing any social issue.

I don’t see how that point follows on from the first sentence tbh. It’s not any more likely that edge cases will be discussed when discussing a topic. People might well use edge cases to support their arguments, but they should be seen for what they are - edge cases, as opposed to imagining those edge cases are an accurate representation of reality. When discussing an issue, people are as likely to apply broad generalisations to groups of people based upon their experiences, or indeed lack of experience. In any attempt to influence policy decisions, people who are against an idea will generally associate it with only negative outcomes for society, and people who are in support of any idea will associate it with positive outcomes for society. Discussion of individuals or edge cases is only helpful in portraying a narrative, either positive or negative, because people relate better to narratives and story telling than reality. It’s a fair point to suggest that most of the narratives associated with people who are transgender and the people who support them, throughout this thread and the many before it, have been negative, which makes the question of there being anything positive to say about the group under discussion, a fair question to ask. Even the most recent video, the employees behind the counter are portrayed as being “terrified”. They certainly don’t strike me as terrified, but that’s the narrative some people who make negative associations with people who are transgender are running with. They’ll be the same people who will condemn others for their lack of empathy when it’s a cause they care about and their ideas are being criticised.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just because we discuss and debate domestic violence a lot in society doesn't mean that happy and non-violent partnerships don't exist—the same way that just because we discuss detransition, natal male criminals using trans identity as cover, women's refuges and so on, doesn't mean that the majority of trans people are not perfectly happy, law-abiding citizens just looking to live their lives.

What’s one thing got to do with the other though, if not to associate one group with negative behaviours and attitudes and so on that are harmful to society? You’re right that discussion of those issues doesn’t mean the majority of people who are transgender are not perfectly happy law-abiding citizens just looking to live their lives, but the association with criminal behaviour or the idea that they are a threat to anyone on the basis of someone else’s behaviour who is not transgender, is a misleading narrative perpetuated to portray people who are transgender as a threat to society. It’s zeroing in on a very niche set of circumstances in an attempt to portray it as common, fuelling prejudice against people who are transgender. It doesn’t suit their argument to acknowledge the reality that in places such as women’s shelters and prisons and so on, women are more at risk from other women, than they are from anyone who is transgender.

Other narratives may include and are not limited to the idea that the UK and Sweden have banned the use of puberty blockers as a treatment for children experiencing gender dysphoria. They haven’t, they’ve simply appointed themselves as the ultimate arbiters in every case - in the UK, the Courts will decide, in Sweden, an ethics committee will decide, no different then than many medical procedures which involve an external arbitration body to maintain oversight in these and similar circumstances.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm sure most trans people (though perhaps not most Trans Rights Activists) would want those edge cases to be discussed, and to find workable solutions that uphold the most dignity possible without negating long-standing safeguarding measures and so on.

Why do you imagine they would want to be associated with them at all? Especially as you point out earlier that the vast majority of people who are transgender are perfectly happy, law-abiding citizens just looking to live their lives? I have no doubt the same can be said for the parents of children who experience gender dysphoria, that they too would rather not have to counter all the negative narratives and prejudice and discrimination levied against them by association. It’s not their role to come up with workable solutions to other people’s problems, any more than it is anyone’s role to come up with workable solutions to other people’s problems. Upholding people’s dignity and freedoms and so on is the role of the Courts, not ordinary people who just wish to be able to live their lives without being the subject of any negative attention and hostility and prejudice. Quite often the people who claim to want workable solutions mean that they want other people to make sacrifices, while they don’t have to make any, and that’s a solution that works for them, but I’d hardly call it a workable solution that accommodates everyone and recognises all people as equals.

km991148

km991148 wrote: »

Are you having a laugh? I literally just did and straight away it's mocked.

I'm not here to represent the trans community. My "moaning" is really just calling out unsubstantiated claims or exaggeration. There is little motivation to engage much further in this thread.

Where were you mocked? You gave an example which you immediately followed with a disclaimer which highlighted the fact that it actually wasn't exclusive to being trans.

km991148

km991148 wrote: »

It wasn't a trans issue at all, but someone acting like a dick. Dicks are dicks

Unfortunate turn of phrase considering the topic.

km991148

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Where were you mocked? You gave an example which you immediately followed with a disclaimer which highlighted the fact that it actually wasn't exclusive to being trans.

No. I wanted to point out that realising you are trans may send you on a path of deeper self discovery. The trans discovery being the catalyst. That's the link that is of course exclusively trans related.

Other forms of deeper self discovery are also available which, knowing this thread and it's tendancy towards pedantry, was important to point out.

One eyed Jack

km991148 wrote: »

No. I wanted to point out that realising you are trans may send you on a path of deeper self discovery. The trans discovery being the catalyst. That's the link that is of course exclusively trans related.

Other forms of deeper self discovery are also available which, knowing this thread and it's tendancy towards pedantry, was important to point out.

Aye, I get where you’re coming from. It’s not something that would have occurred to me before because the whole ‘self-discovery’ thing is not something I’d be into tbh. It’s a tiny number of participants who participated in this particular survey, but they give their perspective on the positive aspects as far as they’re concerned, of the transgender identity -

The positive aspects of a transgender identity

There are plenty more examples on social media that portray being transgender in a positive light, countering the popular narrative that being transgender is all doom and gloom and people who are transgender are condemned to a life of only ever being perceived negatively in society.

km991148

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Aye, I get where you’re coming from. It’s not something that would have occurred to me before because the whole ‘self-discovery’ thing is not something I’d be into tbh. It’s a tiny number of participants who participated in this particular survey, but they give their perspective on the positive aspects as far as they’re concerned, of the transgender identity -

The positive aspects of a transgender identity

There are plenty more examples on social media that portray being transgender in a positive light, countering the popular narrative that being transgender is all doom and gloom and people who are transgender are condemned to a life of only ever being perceived negatively in society.

Yeah, look, the question was asked I was thinking about it and the people I know/know of who are trans, and a lot are perfectly happy just getting on with things and see their trans as something to accept and/or celebrate. Nothing to do with Identity politics bollocks or extreme TRAs online or it being a label etc just a simple reply to the question posed (where others could only see it being negative, and some went as far to say it was it was not possible to see otherwise).

AllForIt

km991148 wrote: »

A badly cropped video where there had obviously been some altercation before. No I don't think the 'what' mattered. I think you have a video of someone acting like an arsehole. When acting like an arsehole any words are fair game.

Badly cropped video? The video was taken by the trans person herself where she supsequently uploaded it online to prove 'discrimination'. You talk as if some 3rd party recorded and distributed it just to cast trans in a bad light. When at least one country has passed mis-gendering laws I don't know how you can say this is just 'noise'. It's completely relevant to the general discussion.

km991148

AllForIt wrote: »

Badly cropped video? The video was taken by the trans person herself where she supsequently uploaded it online to prove 'discrimination'. You talk as if some 3rd party recorded and distributed it just to cast trans in a bad light. When at least one country has passed mis-gendering laws I don't know how you can say this is just 'noise'. It's completely relevant to the general discussion.

I didn't say it was a third party video at all.

A side of this issue sometimes under estimated and ignored. Trans widows voices. This video made me cry. An American lady now living in Ireland. Her point is that there are other sides to this story which are being completely ignored by people pushing progressive mantras. Her voice and those of others like her should not be dismissed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMt-oCxpQqY

GreeBo

km991148 wrote: »

Lol ok my mistake, it's all bad, let me go and find every clip from Twitter that paints any trans issue in a negative light... I'll get on board..

There is a big difference between a trans person doing something negative and trans transgenderism itself being negative. I personally can't understand how one could consider transgenderism positive, it's being born into conflict with your body.
Sure you can go on to live a positive life, but that's despite and not because. It's like being born downs or paralysed, you can go on to do great things despite your situation, but they are still negative things that nobody would ever wish for.

km991148

GreeBo wrote: »

I personally can't understand how one could consider transgenderism positive, it's being born into conflict with your body.
Sure you can go on to live a positive life, but that's despite and not because. It's like being born downs or paralysed, you can go on to do great things despite your situation, but they are still negative things that nobody would ever wish for.

Yep, I'm pretty sure a lot of trans people wouldn't consider it like a disability. I don't think your simile stands up.

Some people suffer some issues (gender dysphoria, for example), but that's a different thing.

km991148

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A side of this issue sometimes under estimated and ignored. Trans widows voices. This video made me cry. An American lady now living in Ireland. Her point is that there are other sides to this story which are being completely ignored by people pushing progressive mantras. Her voice and those of others like her should not be dismissed.

If it's not too upsetting, any chance you could summarise instead of dumping a 45minute video?

GreeBo

km991148 wrote: »

Yep, I'm pretty sure a lot of trans people wouldn't consider it like a disability. I don't think your simile stands up.

Some people suffer some issues (gender dysphoria, for example), but that's a different thing.

Yep, I'm pretty sure I didn't say being trans was like a disability.
You are the very one in this thread who has a fit when people read things into what you say and then you make a post like that?
Ignored.

km991148

GreeBo wrote: »

Yep, I'm pretty sure I didn't say being trans was like a disability.
You are the very one in this thread who has a fit when people read things into what you say and then you make a post like that?
Ignored.

Lol.. I didn't say you did say being trans was a disability. The "it" I referred to was the same as you. I.e. I took your example (comparing the effects, if I understand you correctly) and counter it by saying that I don't think a lot of trans people would agree with you.


A lot of anger, I'm not sure why!

One eyed Jack

GreeBo wrote: »

There is a big difference between a trans person doing something negative and trans transgenderism itself being negative. I personally can't understand how one could consider transgenderism positive, it's being born into conflict with your body.
Sure you can go on to live a positive life, but that's despite and not because. It's like being born downs or paralysed, you can go on to do great things despite your situation, but they are still negative things that nobody would ever wish for.

That’s because of the way you’re choosing to frame being transgender. You’re choosing to frame being transgender in a negative light whereas other people may not, they view being transgender as a positive thing. Their reasons for seeing being transgender as a positive trait may vary according to the individual, but IMO being transgender in and of itself is neither a positive or negative trait, it just is what it is. Being born with Downs or paralysed is similar in that there is nothing either positive or negative in just being born with Downs or being paralysed.

The idea of being unable to go on and do great things is not limited by either being transgender, being born with Downs or being paralysed, it’s more to do with being denied opportunities that other people take for granted as their right, or something that they fought for (which they didn’t actually fight for), or the narrative that anything which deviates from a very limited set of criteria is to be perceived as being a negative trait that nobody would ever wish for.

Gentlemanne

GreeBo wrote: »

Yep, I'm pretty sure I didn't say being trans was like a disability.

Yes you did?

GreeBo wrote: »

It's like being born downs or paralysed

Annasopra

GreeBo wrote: »

There is a big difference between a trans person doing something negative and trans transgenderism itself being negative. I personally can't understand how one could consider transgenderism positive, it's being born into conflict with your body.
Sure you can go on to live a positive life, but that's despite and not because. It's like being born downs or paralysed, you can go on to do great things despite your situation, but they are still negative things that nobody would ever wish for.

Do you not realise that views like yours contribute towards the "despite" there? Comparing being trans to having a disability, viewing being trans negatively

volchitsa

Annasopra wrote: »

Do you not realise that views like yours contribute towards the "despite" there? Comparing being trans to having a disability, viewing being trans negatively

There’s a very good reason for considering it as a disability though: it generally requires significant and long lasting medical treatment, and in many cases major surgery. That’s a pretty good definition of disability or infirmity of some sort to my mind.

Because you’re saying disability can’t be viewed positively - and I think lots of people with disabilities would disagree. In fact plenty of people do view disabilities like Downs, or congenital deafness etc as having their own positive aspects - and they often require far less medical intervention in order to have a “”normal” life than transgender surgery and hormone treatment.

Annasopra

Annasopra wrote: »

Do you not realise that views like yours contribute towards the "despite" there? Comparing being trans to having a disability, viewing being trans negatively

Can you please tell me how you would attempt to view the fact that someone is transgender is positive?

What exactly about being "trapped in the wrong body" is positive?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you please tell me how you would attempt to view the fact that someone is transgender is positive?

What exactly about being "trapped in the wrong body" is positive?

It must be terrible to feel that alienation.
But...in fairness some people handle it as well as can be. And all human beings have some kind of disability or other, of varying degrees whether it is simple ingrown toe nails or right up to mortal illness which can come upon anyone - ordinary aging in itself can be somewhat disabling for many people.

I think there is terrible suffering being promoted by radical gender theorists via the push for medical affirmation. Sterility. Impotence. Increased risk of cancer and cardiovascular disease. Surgeries with high rates of complications. Never ending carrot on a stick solutions to dysphoria that do not work, physically or psychologically.

But some trans people do not chase that carrot and seem to have made a compromise of sorts with their discombobulations, much as most of us will have to make accommodation with the mundane boring sufferings of being feeble mortal humans.
Here is one person for example - the wrong kind of trans, as they say themselves. They know they are male sexed but they are also a trans woman, and completely so. Very amusing smart human being.

https://twitter.com/mcdonnelljp

One eyed Jack

volchitsa wrote: »

There’s a very good reason for considering it as a disability though: it generally requires significant and long lasting medical treatment, and in many cases major surgery. That’s a pretty good definition of disability or infirmity of some sort to my mind.

Because you’re saying disability can’t be viewed positively - and I think lots of people with disabilities would disagree. In fact plenty of people do view disabilities like Downs, or congenital deafness etc as having their own positive aspects - and they often require far less medical intervention in order to have a “”normal” life than transgender surgery and hormone treatment.

No it doesn’t? Being transgender doesn’t actually require any medical treatment or medical intervention whatsoever. I’m not even sure how you quantify what treatment is necessary for anyone to live a normal life, the criteria vary considerably according to culture, values and time in every society.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And all human beings have some kind of disability or other, of varying degrees whether it is simple ingrown toe nails or right up to mortal illness which can come upon anyone - ordinary aging in itself can be somewhat disabling for many people.

No they don’t?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think there is terrible suffering being promoted by radical gender theorists via the push for medical affirmation. Sterility. Impotence. Increased risk of cancer and cardiovascular disease. Surgeries with high rates of complications. Never ending carrot on a stick solutions to dysphoria that do not work, physically or psychologically.

Ill-informed scaremongering doesn’t help anyone.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Here is one person for example - the wrong kind of trans, as they say themselves. They know they are male sexed but they are also a trans woman, and completely so. Very amusing smart human being.

“The right kind of trans” for you to use as an example though all the same. Has the novelty worn off Debbie Hayton as an example of “the right kind of trans” who are acceptable to you since you researched “trans widows”?

(I give you enough credit for having done your research on “trans widows” as opposed to just dropping a Graham Linehan interview into the thread)