Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just want to make sure....

You think COMMON sense is up to individual interpretation rather than common consensus?

That's no true.

Sexual attraction and sexual interest are different.

If I saw an attractive girl in a bar and found her attractive that's cool. If I found out she was underage, my sexual interest would disappear.

Same going for trans people. I could see a person who presented as a woman and find her attractive. If I found out they were biologically male, my sexual interest would disappear.

In the first instance, it doesn't make me a paedo, in the second, it doesn't make me bi, unless my sexual interest remained after knowing the truth.

Common sense is common sense unless you believe that every individual interpretation is as common as the general consensus.

But sure, you have no issue redefining words, so why would "common" be different to you.

Words mean nothing according to the vocal minority

No I’m saying people often claim their individual approach is common sense. From the replies above it’s pretty obvious your beliefs about sexuality are not that “common” sense.

Your approach doesn’t really make sense, let alone common sense. Your approach relies on two separate notions of “attraction” and “interest” because as girly gal pointed out, most people can’t instantly turn off their attraction based on new conscious knowledge.

Your approach also says that straight men can be interested in trans women before finding out they are trans. If people were inherently attracted to sex then this magically wouldn’t happen. Your own theory acknowledges that people are attracted to the outward presentation of sex. Some people would call this.... shock horror... GENDER.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's much more simple than that.

Some people don't want to have sex with people who aren't the sex they are sexually interested in.

But according to you bisexual people are interested in both sexes so that can’t be anything to do with it for bi people.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

most people can’t instantly turn off their attraction based on new conscious knowledge.

As the dunne illustrated by very apt analogy most people can instantly turn off their attraction and do, based on new conscious information.
Eg as he said if they found out the woman to whom they felt attracted was underage.
Or if they were their never before met daughter, mother, sister.
Or their step brother, nephew, grandson.
Or, in many cases, if the person turns out to be a different sex than the one they initially perceived them to be. Or to have different sexual characteristics than expected.

That is sexuality for you. That is the nature of sexual attraction. It is just as much an individual choice and decision, to be free of any shaming calls of bigotry or bias, for everyone else as much as you expect everyone to allow it to be for you.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

But according to you bisexual people are interested in both sexes so that can’t be anything to do with it for bi people.

They are.

They are interested in bi (both) sexes.

They also have a preference and a right to choose who within those sexes they want to have sex with.

Being bisexual doesn't compel you to have sex with everyone.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

No I’m saying people often claim their individual approach is common sense. From the replies above it’s pretty obvious your beliefs about sexuality are not that “common” sense.

Your approach doesn’t really make sense, let alone common sense. Your approach relies on two separate notions of “attraction” and “interest” because as girly gal pointed out, most people can’t instantly turn off their attraction based on new conscious knowledge.

Your approach also says that straight men can be interested in trans women before finding out they are trans. If people were inherently attracted to sex then this magically wouldn’t happen. Your own theory acknowledges that people are attracted to the outward presentation of sex. Some people would call this.... shock horror... GENDER.

If you are attracted to someone physically and gain knowledge (i.e age, biological sex etc) that goes against what is your "cut off point" then yes, your attraction is quelled.

Although the person is attractive to you, knowledge of their biology (age, sex) can and change that.

It's not magic. It's COMMON SENSE.

GENDER as you like to capitalise is what exactly?

An outward presentation of sex? No. Not even close.

It's an outward presentation of what an individual chooses to identify as.

Do you agree there are an infinite amount of genders?

This thread is about gender identity. Can we please agree that gender identity is wholly and irrefutably different to biological sex?

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As the dunne illustrated by very apt analogy most people can instantly turn off their attraction and do, based on new conscious information.
Eg as he said if they found out the woman to whom they felt attracted was underage.
Or if they were their never before met daughter, mother, sister.
Or their step brother, nephew, grandson.
Or, in many cases, if the person turns out to be a different sex than the one they initially perceived them to be. Or to have different sexual characteristics than expected.

That is sexuality for you. That is the nature of sexual attraction. It is just as much an individual choice and decision, to be free of any shaming calls of bigotry or bias, for everyone else as much as you expect everyone to allow it to be for you.

Well given that the most popular types of straight porn for men are schoolgirl and incest I’m not sure any of the above is true...

I don’t think you understand the nature of sexuality at all. If you honestly believe we are in complete control of our attraction and someone attracted to a schoolgirl would instantly not be attracted to them the second they found out, it’s a bit of an idealised fantasy land.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Well given that the most popular types of straight porn for men are schoolgirl and incest I’m not sure any of the above is true...

I don’t think you understand the nature of sexuality at all. If you honestly believe we are in complete control of our attraction and someone attracted to a schoolgirl would instantly not be attracted to them the second they found out, it’s a bit of an idealised fantasy land.

I am in complete control.

If I find a woman attractive and I find out she is underage, I no longer have any interest in her sexually.

If I find a woman attractive and find out she is a biological male, I no longer have any interest in them sexually.

No idea what your knowledge of popular porn has to do with anything. It does make it sound like you are painting straight men as deviants which is somewhat ironic. (Kink shaming maybe? I dunno what you would call it)

But if you think that a man finding out that a person they found attractive was underage WOULDN'T make a difference, then I'm sorry, that says an awful lot more about you.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Well given that the most popular types of straight porn for men are schoolgirl and incest I’m not sure any of the above is true...

I don’t think you understand the nature of sexuality at all. If you honestly believe we are in complete control of our attraction and someone attracted to a schoolgirl would instantly not be attracted to them the second they found out, it’s a bit of an idealised fantasy land.

The more I read your post, the stranger it gets.

You aren't in control of your attraction?

It would be fantasy land to not be attracted to a child once you found out their age?

Not a great look.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I am in complete control.

If I find a woman attractive and I find out she is underage, I no longer have any interest in her sexually.

If I find a woman attractive and find out she is a biological male, I no longer have any interest in them sexually.

No idea what your knowledge of popular porn has to do with anything. It does make it sound like you are painting straight men as deviants which is somewhat ironic. (Kink shaming maybe? I dunno what you would call it)

But if you think that a man finding out that a person they found attractive was underage WOULDN'T make a difference, then I'm sorry, that says an awful lot more about you.

I’m simply pointing out that you and isha are painting sexuality and sexual interests which are notoriously complicated, as very simplistic. Whether you like it or not schoolgirl (with above age actors) and incest ( fake incest) porn are massively popular. So unless a significant proportion of men are consciously deciding to find this appealing, then it’s pretty likely that a significant proportion of people are not in complete control of their sexual interests.

I’m a little surprised that you might find an 18 year old attractive at midnight on their birthday but have zero sexual attraction to them 10 seconds earlier. Bit bizarre really.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The more I read your post, the stranger it gets.

You aren't in control of your attraction?

It would be fantasy land to not be attracted to a child once you found out their age?

Not a great look.

Yes it’s complete fantasy land to think that sexual attraction is completely conscious and controlled and you might find someone attractive at one time (on their 18th birthday) and completely repulsive 10 seconds earlier. It would be nice to believe. But it’s still nonsense. And trying to paint me as having an interest in children is too silly to take seriously.

LLMMLL

Also if we are in complete control of our attraction gay people could choose to be straight and vice versa surely?

Shield

Deleted User wrote: »

This thread is about gender identity. Can we please agree that gender identity is wholly and irrefutably different to biological sex?

I was directed to a review of Abigail Shrier's book here which is eye-opening if it's true. I'm more than happy to acknowledge that she made mistakes in her book, but that doesn't alter its core message, which is why I still highly recommed it as a book that I actually did read.

In his review, Christopher J. Ferguson (PhD) writes "contrary to the slogan “gender is a social construct” (endorsed by Shrier in large part), neurobiological evidence has found that gender identity resides in the hypothalamus and, as such, is largely immutable. Put rather simply, it is literally true that trans individuals have the body of one sex, yet the brain of another".

So it's biological, except it isn't. Here is a paper stating the complete opposite: Neurosexism: the myth that men and women have different brains. Now we have a case of publication bias on our hands. Good luck with that.

Either way, the above review doesn't address other difficult related issues like social contagion, autogynephilia, and autistic traits being over-represented in transgender populations among others. Until everyone agrees to what degree biology plays a role in gender, if at all, these debates have no end in sight.

LLMMLL

If a 40 year old man instantly becomes repulsed when he finds out that someone he thought was 18 is actually 17, do 17 year old men also instantly become repulsed at this?

At what age do men go from from being attracted to someone who is 17 and 364 days to being instantly repulsed?

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Absolutely not.

If a man finds a trans woman attractive AFTER he knows their sex, then yes, he would be bisexual as he is knowingly finding a member of the same sex attractive.

There is a trans person called Blair White who was born male and now because of makeup and surgery passes as a very convincing and conventionally attractive woman.

If a straight man saw them and was sexually interested they would not be necessarily bisexual. Blair is purposely portraying female traits.

If the man knew that Blair was a biological man and still had sexual interest in them, then yes, they would be bisexual.

Bisexuality is having a sexual interest in male and female people.

I gave a simplistic definition because it's very simple.

No it really isnt that simple. He could be straight or bisexual or pansexual but you dont decide his sexuality. He does. And trying to suggest that he must be gay or bi because he is attracted to a trans woman is frankly drivel.

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A person who wants to engage in sexual activity, is sexually attracted to, or fantasizes in having sex with someone else. That's sexual interest.

If someone has a sexual interest in someone exclusively of the opposite sex, they are heterosexual.

If someone has a sexual interest in someone of the same sex, they are homosexual

If someone has a sexual interest in both sexes, they are bisexual.

For example, if Blair White was a biological female, I could easily see how I might be sexually interested. Knowing that Blair White is a biological male would quell any sexual interest I have.

I can see that Blair possesses aesthetic qualities which would make them attractive to heterosexual men, but acknowledging that doesn't change their biology.

But why do you assume that your opinions/thoughts and feelings are the exact same as everyone else. They arent.

Annasopra

LLMMLL wrote: »

Exactly. To make his system of simplicity work, the dunne has to propose that sexual attraction is based on knowledge of gender/sex.

One could easily claim that a person who believes that trans women are male and is sexually attracted to Blair White without knowing she is trans is sexually attracted to a male and therefore gay.

The Dunne’s common sense is only common to himself and those that agree with him.

Exactly. Its not common sense at all.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Well given that the most popular types of straight porn for men are schoolgirl and incest I’m not sure any of the above is true...

I don’t think you understand the nature of sexuality at all. If you honestly believe we are in complete control of our attraction and someone attracted to a schoolgirl would instantly not be attracted to them the second they found out, it’s a bit of an idealised fantasy land.

I will have to presume you speak for yourself.

Annasopra

Girly Gal wrote: »

If you're attracted to someone and you later find out they are trans, your attraction to them simply doesn't just instantly stop, that's not how it works, you might decide that you don't want to be in a relationship with them, but, that doesn't mean you're attraction would stop all of a sudden.
Blair White was mentioned above, she's a very attractive transwoman and I'm sure there are loads of straight guys who are attracted to her even after they find out she is trans, does that make all these straight men bisexual, I don't think so, because they are attracted to the image she portrays, that of a conventionally attractive woman.

No. It doesn't. Its just complete and utter nonsense and frankly an absurd misunderstanding to suggest it does. It happens all the time that straight men have relationships with trans women and they are still straight men.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Also if we are in complete control of our attraction gay people could choose to be straight and vice versa surely?

Why?
There is nothing wrong with being heterosexual or homosexual. What is there needing to control?

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

If a 40 year old man instantly becomes repulsed when he finds out that someone he thought was 18 is actually 17, do 17 year old men also instantly become repulsed at this?

At what age do men go from from being attracted to someone who is 17 and 364 days to being instantly repulsed?

Your arguments smack of desperation. If people receive new information it can completely affect their sexual attraction. From mmmhmmm to ewwwww in an instant. Or any desire, in fact. Just like if I found out you put vinegar on your incredibly delicious looking chips - now they are just vile scaldy fat blobs to me.

Shield

It's good that we all seem to agree that there is such a thing as too young.

It will be interesting to see what reception gender affirming products like those from www.stitchbugstudio.com will get from our fair island. Note: They removed "in sizes appropriate for children" on May 13th and replaced it with "in youth sizes" on May 16th, only to remove all references to children and youth on their current page. Archived source. However, these "gender affirming" products are still available "for smaller bodies".

How about this, Stitchbug Studio: Leave. Children. Alone.

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Your arguments smack of desperation. If people receive new information it can completely affect their sexual attraction. From mmmhmmm to ewwwww in an instant. Or any desire, in fact. Just like if I found out you put vinegar on your incredibly delicious looking chips - now they are just vile scaldy fat blobs to me.

Right ok.... Vinegar changes your sexuality.

sabat

Annasopra wrote: »

No. It doesn't. Its just complete and utter nonsense and frankly an absurd misunderstanding to suggest it does. It happens all the time that straight men have relationships with trans women and they are still straight men.

I've never heard of this happen. Not once.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I will have to presume you speak for yourself.

I do speak for myself. I am absolutely not in control of my sexuality. If I was I could choose to be straight. Not that I would.

It’s one of the silliest things I’ve heard on this thread.

Annasopra

sabat wrote: »

I've never heard of this happen. Not once.

You're clearly living in a bubble that isnt the real world then.. A straight man having a relationship with a trans woman does not make him gay or bi at all and frankly it is just beyond silly to claim it does.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Your arguments smack of desperation. If people receive new information it can completely affect their sexual attraction. From mmmhmmm to ewwwww in an instant. Or any desire, in fact. Just like if I found out you put vinegar on your incredibly delicious looking chips - now they are just vile scaldy fat blobs to me.

Hardly desperate to highlight how ridiculous it is to suggest that sexuality follows well defined “if A then B” rules and we are all in complete control of our sexuality.

If the Dunne is in complete control then he can choose to be gay if he wants. Do you think that is possible?

If sexual attraction follows incredibly precise rules of age then the dunne could be interested in someone who has just turned 18 but repulsed by someone who will turn 18 tomorrow.

The only fantasies playing out here are that people do not adjust their attractions all the time based on new information. (Or worse still that people have no control over their sexual attraction.)
That hot girl is a total wagon to her suffering friend, dial goes down for many.
That hunk is out on parole, dial goes down for many.
The new lad in the office is married, dial goes down for many.
That incredible chick is my sister, dial goes down for many, hopefully most.
That handsome guy in the gay bar has a vagina, dial goes down for many.
Or here - the new hot lad in the office is gay - straightaway mostly zero interest from heterosexual women.

Just some of the manifold ways new information affects original sexual attraction and changes it. Easily and for many.

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The only fantasies playing out here are that people do not adjust their attractions all the time based on new information. (Or worse still that people have no control over their sexual attraction.)
That hot girl is a total wagon to her suffering friend, dial goes down for many.
That hunk is out on parole, dial goes down for many.
The new lad in the office is married, dial goes down for many.
That incredible chick is my sister, dial goes down for many, hopefully most.
That handsome guy in the gay bar has a vagina, dial goes down for many.
Or here - the new hot lad in the office is gay - straightaway mostly zero interest from heterosexual women.

Just some of the manifold ways new information affects original sexual attraction and changes it. Easily and for many.

Meh. None of this means makes a straight man who dates a trans woman automatically gay or bi as suggested above.

sabat

Annasopra wrote: »

You're clearly living in a bubble that isnt the real world then.. A straight man having a relationship with a trans woman does not make him gay or bi at all and frankly it is just beyond silly to claim it does.

A "trans woman" is a man who thinks he's a woman. If a man has a physical relationship with them he is homosexual. (Random crazy nights out in Bangkok etc aside.) Straight men don't enjoy playing with other men's cocks. End of story.

Mod

Thread ban and week off the forum.