Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Gatling

Still nothing that was posted specifically says one cannot change there gender back and forth ,
Some how I doubt any Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade will stop anyone changing gender identity several times.

The minister would end up in court having to try argue why a person can be physically forced to stay a gender they no longer feel they are ,the all accounts the majority of those who transition detransision at a later date ,

kildare lad

Neyite wrote: »

Well, there's an individual that does bounce back and forth on a weekly basis in the UK.

Pip Bunce is gender fluid and lives roughly half the week as a woman and the other half as a man. They were named on the Financial Times 100 businesswomen of the year, which would indicate that needing a GRC wasn't any barrier to being fully accepted as female when it came to professional recognition.

I have no idea if PB does have a GRC, obviously, but it demonstrates that it may be optional, but not any impediment to living as your true authentic self, however you present.

So for one half of the week she pisses standing up and when she decides to be a woman ,she'll piss sitting down . I've never heard as much nonsense as that gender fluidity rubbish . It's the same idiots on twitter that shout cultural appropriation if a white woman wears dreadlocks , but if she decides to be a man tomorrow that's cool .

Cilldara_2000

Gatling wrote: »

Still nothing that was posted specifically says one cannot change there gender back and forth ,
Some how I doubt any Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade will stop anyone changing gender identity several times.

The minister would end up in court having to try argue why a person can be physically forced to stay a gender they no longer feel they are ,the all accounts the majority of those who transition detransision at a later date ,

Source?

Neyite

kildare lad wrote: »

So for one half of the week she pisses standing up and when she decides to be a woman ,she'll piss sitting down . I've never heard as much nonsense as that gender fluidity rubbish . It's the same idiots on twitter that shout cultural appropriation if a white woman wears dreadlocks , but if she decides to be a man tomorrow that's cool .

I've never even considered their toileting habits oddly enough. :P My musings were along the lines of whether Pip's salary was adjusted down for the gender pay gap. Or what woman didn't make the cut in order to make room for Pip on the top 100 women in business list.

volchitsa

Neyite wrote: »

I've never even considered their toileting habits oddly enough. :P My musings were along the lines of whether Pip's salary was adjusted down for the gender pay gap. Or what woman didn't make the cut in order to make room for Pip on the top 100 women in business list.

Sit down and keep quiet, dear. Men are just better at being women than we are. :rolleyes:

IAMAMORON

Gatling wrote: »

Still nothing that was posted specifically says one cannot change there gender back and forth ,
Some how I doubt any Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade will stop anyone changing gender identity several times.

The minister would end up in court having to try argue why a person can be physically forced to stay a gender they no longer feel they are ,the all accounts the majority of those who transition detransision at a later date ,

In fairness the entire act pertinent to the responsibilities of both the state and its's citizens' has been printed on the previous page. From what I read there is no such provision.

Why are you constantly suggesting that transsexuals are hell bent on juggling their gender identity. Where are you seeing this?

In fact the minister has provision to revoke any application.

I think at this point it is worth noting that while the terminology " minister" is being used... this does not mean some TD is going to be musing over a strong whiskey some evening deeming whether or not they would like to permit a citizen to change gender. Whilst the ultimate responsibility rests with the minister of state... the reality is a team of individuals advising both state and citizen of an appropriate action.

Gervais08

volchitsa wrote: »

Sit down and keep quiet, dear. Men are just better at being women than we are. :rolleyes:

Who’s that absolute clown who basically just does his nails and wears a skirt and has been made “Women’s Officer” of Stonewall?

Has his beard and everything and says he wants to “explore the bandwidth of being a woman”.

GTFO - explore what it means to be a man - war a skirt and eyeliner, good on you. Saw more men growing up wearing lippy than not.

But stop encroaching in women’s rights - you can’t speak for us and certainly should not describe himself as a lesbian. Lesbians have already had to fight for their rights, they shouldn’t have to start again!

Gervais08

IAMAMORON wrote: »

In fairness the entire act pertinent to the responsibilities of both the state and its's citizens' has been printed on the previous page. From what I read there is no such provision.

Why are you constantly suggesting that transsexuals are hell bent on juggling their gender identity. Where are you seeing this?

In fact the minister has provision to revoke any application.

I think at this point it is worth noting that while the terminology " minister" is being used... this does not mean some TD is going to be musing over a strong whiskey some evening deeming whether or not they would like to permit a citizen to change gender. Whilst the ultimate responsibility rests with the minister of state... the reality is a team of individuals advising both state and citizen of an appropriate action.

Do you not see that the first time someone in Government says no to anyone’s request - whether a first or subsequently change - there’ll be a “Twitterstorm” and they’ll be resigning in a week.

Cilldara_2000

Gervais08 wrote: »

Do you not see that the first time someone in Government says no to anyone’s request - whether a first or subsequently change - there’ll be a “Twitterstorm” and they’ll be resigning in a week.

If this thread is evidence of anything, there'd be more people cheering on the Minister in this pointless hypothetical than would be having a go.

But anyway, it is a pointless hypothetical and speculating about who'd do what is silly here. You just don't know what the general reaction would be any more than I. As Gruffalux said above, the whole line of argument seems to be nothing only an attempt to obfuscate the discussion into absurdity.

Cilldara_2000

Here's the 2018 report: https://assets.gov.ie/70336/d7b77746a61f48af83c8aa0004224ac9.pdf

Per page 4, one application was refused in 2017. I don't recall a twitter storm or resignations. Do you?

Gatling

Gervais08 wrote: »

Do you not see that the first time someone in Government says no to anyone’s request - whether a first or subsequently change - there’ll be a “Twitterstorm” and they’ll be resigning in a week.

But nowhere does it state a person cannot change their minds and gender more than once ,
No where does it say it

IAMAMORON

Gervais08 wrote: »

Do you not see that the first time someone in Government says no to anyone’s request - whether a first or subsequently change - there’ll be a “Twitterstorm” and they’ll be resigning in a week.

That might happen, but Twitterstom's are not legal precedent or capable of changing our constitution.......... and that is a good thing no matter how much value you would like to put on Twitterstorms.:)

I would also be wary of trying to put too much emphasis on this being a government decision, it will be getting advised by a specific committee employed by the minister to deal with it. As I alluded to in my previous post the ultimate responsibility, whilst resting with the minister, is merely a procedural matter. The minister will have state resources available which will advise appropriate decision making. The concept that the minister or government is involved is merely procedural.

IAMAMORON

Gatling wrote: »

But nowhere does it state a person cannot change their minds and gender more than once ,
No where does it say it

It doesn't say it anywhere.

They would need to reapply to the state using the same procedure that they used in their initial transition.

Omackeral

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

But you just argued that legal gender recognition is lunacy because there is also a process to revoke it. That argument is an argument against legal gender recognition.

In the case of so-called fluidity. I stated that. That's what I said. You've posted in bad faith.

Gatling

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It doesn't say it anywhere.

So in theory yes you can change your gender multiple times .

We know a certain individual in a Limerick women's prison who didn't appear to meet the criteria to be considered but yet got a cert, despite being labelled as very manipulative and made claim various claims which were proven untrue so they system has flaws

Cilldara_2000

Gatling wrote: »

But nowhere does it state a person cannot change their minds and gender more than once ,
No where does it say it

Well now, they have to make a Statutory Declaration:

"I ...
of (current address) ...
do solemnly and sincerely declare that I
(i) have a settled and solemn intention to live in the preferred gender of male/female (delete as appropriate) for the rest of my life,
(ii) understand the consequences of the application, and
(iii) make this application of my own free will.

I declare that details given above are correct and I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true and by virtue of the Statutory Declarations Act, 1938."

You would reasonable expect that some minister or official would raise an issue if someone kept coming back after revoking. At some point their assessment of their "settled and solemn intention to live in the preferred gender ... for the rest of [their] life" would be called into question.

But yet again I point out that this is an utterly tedious red herring at this stage. There is no evidence of anyone applying more than once.

Gatling

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

But yet again I point out that this is an utterly tedious red herring at this stage. There is no evidence of anyone applying more than once.

No it's not a red herring .

There is absolutely nothing any where in the legislation that says no you cannot - this is true .

Gender is now turning into a consumer product or
Choice ,and the legislation posted only applies to gender identity cert ,
So if you don't seek a government approved gender recognition cert none of the legislation applies ,you can be Paul on Monday ,mary on Wednesday ,Mick on Saturday And Patricia on Sunday ,

Cilldara_2000

Gatling wrote: »

No it's not a red herring .

There is absolutely nothing any where in the legislation that says no you cannot - this is true .

Gender is now turning into a consumer product or
Choice ,and the legislation posted only applies to gender identity cert ,
So if you don't seek a government approved gender recognition cert none of the legislation applies ,you can be Paul on Monday ,mary on Wednesday ,Mick on Saturday And Patricia on Sunday ,

Until we see hordes of people applying for, revoking, and applying again, revoking again and rinse and repeat, it is a red herring. You do not know anymore than I know how the authorities would treat such applications but at least I can point to the Statutory Declaration on such applications being that a person intends to live as the "new" gender for the rest of their lives, that the legislation indicates applications can be refused, and that at least one application has been refused indicating that they don't just automatically approve all application.

What have you got to back you point? Nothing more than the legislation fails to explicitly mention it.

IAMAMORON

Gatling wrote: »

So in theory yes you can change your gender multiple times .

We know a certain individual in a Limerick women's prison who didn't appear to meet the criteria to be considered but yet got a cert, despite being labelled as very manipulative and made claim various claims which were proven untrue so they system has flaws

That is the prerogative of the minister in fairness. Your opinion on whether it was a good or bad decision is irrelevant in this instance. The law is laid out and the state has made up its' mind on how to deal with that scenario, rightly or wrongly.

In any case, it is a very unique scenario and imo not beneficial to any argument. It is highly unlikely the state will encounter many such instances, I am not saying that it will not require future consideration, but it does appear that the case you are referring to is unlikely to trouble the minister in future. If it did that would be a matter for the doctors in the prison service.

It is not really relevant in terms of current procedures being open to abuse by either the state or citizens.

Annasopra

Gatling wrote: »

Still nothing that was posted specifically says one cannot change there gender back and forth ,
Some how I doubt any Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade will stop anyone changing gender identity several times.

The minister would end up in court having to try argue why a person can be physically forced to stay a gender they no longer feel they are ,the all accounts the majority of those who transition detransision at a later date ,

You're creating a "problem" that doesnt exist.

IAMAMORON

Gatling wrote: »

No it's not a red herring .

There is absolutely nothing any where in the legislation that says no you cannot - this is true .

Gender is now turning into a consumer product or
Choice ,and the legislation posted only applies to gender identity cert ,
So if you don't seek a government approved gender recognition cert none of the legislation applies ,you can be Paul on Monday ,mary on Wednesday ,Mick on Saturday And Patricia on Sunday ,

But you do need to seek a government approved cert, so what is your point in creating a grey area which does not currently exist?

Annasopra

Gervais08 wrote: »

Do you not see that the first time someone in Government says no to anyone’s request - whether a first or subsequently change - there’ll be a “Twitterstorm” and they’ll be resigning in a week.

There was already a refusal and nothing happened.

Cilldara_2000

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

You're creating a "problem" that doesnt exist.

And you've reminded me that they've yet to back up this point about by "all accounts the majority of those who transition detransision at a later date". This is patently false.

Gatling

IAMAMORON wrote: »

But you do need to seek a government approved cert,[ /quote]

No you absolutely do not ,

Gervais08

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

And you've reminded me that they've yet to back up this point about by "all accounts the majority of those who transition detransision at a later date". This is patently false.

As is the “every trans person is universally passive” which was neither backed up nor withdrawn.

IAMAMORON

Gatling wrote: »

No you absolutely do not ,

Yes you do, see the legislation.

Application for a gender recognition certificate

8. (1) A person referred to in section 9 may apply to the Minister for a gender recognition certificate.

(2) An application under this section shall be in writing in the form, including electronic form, as may be prescribed, and no fee shall be charged by the Minister for considering the application.

(3) The Minister shall consider an application under this section and shall decide to either—

(a) issue a gender recognition certificate, or

(b) refuse to issue a gender recognition certificate.

(4) In considering an application under this section the Minister shall consider the information furnished by the applicant and may request further information from the applicant regarding any information or evidence furnished by the applicant or on his or her behalf.

(5) The Minister shall give notice in writing to the applicant of a decision under subsection (3), as soon as practicable after it is made, which shall, in relation to a decision under subsection (3)(b) —

(a) include reasons for the decision,

(b) inform the applicant that he or she may, under section 17 , appeal the decision within 90 days of the date of the notice, and

(c) inform the applicant that the decision shall be suspended until—

(i) the decision becomes final under subsection (6), or

(ii) the disposal of an appeal under section 17 (2).

(6) If, on the expiration of the period of 90 days beginning on the date of the notice under subsection (5), no appeal under section 17 is made, the Minister’s decision under subsection (3)(b) is final.

(7) If, following an appeal under section 17 the court, under section 17 (2)(b) orders the Minister to reconsider his or her decision, the Minister’s decision under subsection (3)(b) is suspended until the Minister reconsiders his or her decision.

Cilldara_2000

Gervais08 wrote: »

As is the “every trans person is universally passive” which was neither backed up nor withdrawn.

Well take it up with the poster who said that then. In the meantime I'll continue to take this other point up with Gatling.

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

You're creating a "problem" that doesnt exist.

Or.... Preempting a problem which may exist.

volchitsa

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

There was already a refusal and nothing happened.

Since the law on self declaration? Refused on what grounds?

Gatling

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Gatling wrote: »

Yes you do, see the legislation.

Application for a gender recognition certificate

Application for yes ,

Now show us where exactly it says that you apply for one ,

So if someone self identifies they don't have to nor can they forced to .

This is correct yes