Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

And by the way, it's worth considering that many transwomen consider themselves to be men - even post-transition.

These are men who have gone through the surgical process and are taking hormones - the complete package.

Unfortunately, many trans activists make the extraordinary statement that these are "self-hating trans-"people.

Let's not assume from the loud voices on here, that somehow there is uniformity of opinion over trans-. There quite clearly is not.

Three of many prominent examples of the above include Blair White, Rose of Dawn; and Debbie Hayton (in the video below).

If those who have transitioned completely with hormones are on our side, it's about time that trans activists recognize this and not whitewash these transwomen out of the discussion. The discussion is not as black and white as they would suggest.

One eyed Jack

volchitsa wrote: »

How often do you think someone will know a trans woman in any way well and not know they are trans? IME it's blatantly obvious. Less so for a trans man perhaps, and a beard is definitely a great way of "passing", but for a trans woman there's no equivalent.

So I don't think it's too likely that you'd need to tell anyone. They would already know.

Very often. Being transgender has no external indicators, so it would be impossible for anyone to tell if they weren’t told. It’s why some people are up in arms about people who are transgender who don’t wish to undergo any medical or surgical procedures, and becoming more common is the standard that they don’t feel they have to socially transition either. It’s unnerving for anyone who says they can tell a person is transgender, because it’s evidence if ever it was needed, that there are faults in their previous assumptions about other people. Honestly it reminds me of people who claim they can tell a person is gay - they make assumptions about other people, based upon as you point out, their experience. They can’t possibly already know if their assumptions about other people are in fact in any way accurate.

I get the dunnes point that his daughter can distinguish between two different people, anyone can point out differences between one person and another if they actually do look any different. They’re not operating on the basis of being able to distinguish by biology, they’re operating on the basis of what their brain is telling them, informed by their experiences and the knowledge they have either been taught, or have learned. Someone with no previous knowledge of what constitutes either male or female, isn’t going to have the knowledge to be able to identify anyone as either a woman or a man. They’ll be able to distinguish differences between people based upon their own senses, vision, hearing and touch being the most obvious ones, but if they’re told that for example one person is an apple, and one person is an orange, that’s all they know, until they’re told or they learn anything different, that these people are actually known as man and woman, and apples and oranges are something else entirely.

The ability to distinguish between different things is innate, the knowledge of what those things are called, is not. There’s no biology behind how things are classified and what they are called. That’s simply the function of language, and if a person isn’t articulate enough to be able to explain why they feel different from what they observe of other people, they’re unlikely to be able to tell anyone anything more than they feel different, let alone will they have the knowledge to be able to identify themselves as transgender and explain what it means to other people. If a person doesn’t know themselves that they are transgender, then other people are incredibly unlikely to know that a person is transgender.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ok, let's please try to get this straight.

I said that my ten year old could tell the difference between a biological man and a woman.

This wasn't to prove any other point other than it's a simple thing to decipher.

I definitely was not holding this ten year old up as proof of a difference. I'm just saying that children, babies even, know the difference between biological men and women.

Because there is a difference.

I dont take their views seriously and wouldn't cite them as references.

Teens will obviously rebel against the norms (as is their nature) and I also don't take them as citations either.

My whole point was that children can tell if they are dealing with a biological man or woman.

But you probably shouldn't rely on them to decide for you.

If you are swayed by a ten or fifteen year old, maybe you need to do some self reflection.

Jesus wept.

By saying your 10 year old can tell the difference because there is a difference you are using her opinion as evidence.

One could equally say your 10 year old mistakenly believes she can identify whether someone is a man or a woman based on first appearances because of the influence of her father.

I've encountered people that I do not know are male or female in my daily life and these people were not trans or non binary. Some cis women can be extremely stereotypically masculine and same for cis men and stereotypical feminine attributes.

Frankly your daughters mistaken beliefs mean nothing.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If those who have transitioned completely with hormones are on our side, it's about time that trans activists recognize this and not whitewash these transwomen out of the discussion. The discussion is not as black and white as they would suggest.

Really? :pac:

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And by the way, it's worth considering that many transwomen consider themselves to be men - even post-transition.

These are men who have gone through the surgical process and are taking hormones - the complete package.

Unfortunately, many trans activists make the extraordinary statement that these are "self-hating trans-"people.

Let's not assume from the loud voices on here, that somehow there is uniformity of opinion over trans-. There quite clearly is not.

Three of many prominent examples of the above include Blair White, Rose of Dawn; and Debbie Hayton (in the video below).

If those who have transitioned completely with hormones are on our side, it's about time that trans activists recognize this and not whitewash these transwomen out of the discussion. The discussion is not as black and white as they would suggest.

It's truly hilarious how people on this thread hold up Debbie Hayton as their hero trans person.

She has been completely disowned by the anti trans community since texts of hers came out where she was laughing at you guys and ridiculing your opinions.

She's also a terrible representative. I watched a video of her (think it was a channel called triggernometry) and she can't explain her views at all. They're riddled with contradictions.

Edit: it was the above video. Watch it and tell me you think this woman has a coherent position on trans issues.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Edit: it was the above video. Watch it and tell me you think this woman has a coherent position on trans issues.

I have watched it.

And her position is perfectly coherent.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

By saying your 10 year old can tell the difference because there is a difference you are using her opinion as evidence.

One could equally say your 10 year old mistakenly believes she can identify whether someone is a man or a woman based on first appearances because of the influence of her father.

I've encountered people that I do not know are male or female in my daily life and these people were not trans or non binary. Some cis women can be extremely stereotypically masculine and same for cis men and stereotypical feminine attributes.

Frankly your daughters mistaken beliefs mean nothing.

My daughter's mistaken belief?

That men and women are biologically different???

And the fact that 999/1000 she would be right by a cursory glance and 999999/1000000 after spending time in their company about what biological gender they were?

This isn't from my "teachings". It's because she isn't a gender obsessed white knight and knows that men and women are different. Even feminine men are easy to distinguish from women and masculine women are easily identifiable as women.

And OF COURSE you have met people in your daily life where you could identify them. It's because you think women and men are interchangeable.

And as for my daughter's beliefs meaning nothing? Well that's charming.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My daughter's mistaken belief?

That men and women are biologically different???

And the fact that 999/1000 she would be right by a cursory glance and 999999/1000000 after spending time in their company about what biological gender they were?

This isn't from my "teachings". It's because she isn't a gender obsessed white knight and knows that men and women are different. Even feminine men are easy to distinguish from women and masculine women are easily identifiable as women.

And OF COURSE you have met people in your daily life where you could identify them. It's because you think women and men are interchangeable.

And as for my daughter's beliefs meaning nothing? Well that's charming.

No it's because she has absorbed her father's prejudices and beliefs.

You obviously have strongly held conservative views that will rub off on a pre teen.

Now once she is a bit older and can challenge these views you might be a little less quick to champion her opinions as evidence of reality. Time will tell.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I have watched it.

And her position is perfectly coherent.

I'm trying to find the thread on mumsnet where her texts about you guys were leaked. It's funny that you support someone who basically believes you are ridiculous idiots and laughs at you behind your backs.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

I'm trying to find the thread on mumsnet where her texts about you guys were leaked. It's funny that you support someone who basically believes you are ridiculous idiots and laughs at you behind your backs.

Even if that were true, it wouldn't undermine the validity her own argument that she considers herself, and every other transwoman, a man.

You are therefore searching for a red herring.

Even if she insulted me to the high heaven, how would that be strong evidence against her position she considers herself a man? That's quite an unusual leap of poor logic there.

She has gone through the surgery, is taking hormones - but you are on here stating that she is still a woman? When she calls herself a biological man?

This is having it both ways in the most egregious, self-serving manner.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Even if that were true, it wouldn't undermine the validity her own argument that she considers herself, and every other transwoman, a man.

You are therefore searching for a red herring.

Even if she insulted me to the high heaven, how would that be strong evidence against her position she considers herself a man? That's quite an unusual leap of poor logic there.

She has gone through the surgery, is taking hormones - but you are on here stating that she is still a woman? When she calls herself a biological man?

This is having it both ways in the most egregious, self-serving manner.

She insists her pupils call her "miss" while also claiming to not care about pronouns.

She uses female toilets and changing facilities while insisting that this right is not extended to other trans people.

I don't think she is consistent and I don't think she agrees with you at all.

And I've never made any proclamation as to her sex or gender so not sure what you're on about with that.

Mic 1972

LLMMLL wrote: »

By saying your 10 year old can tell the difference because there is a difference you are using her opinion as evidence.

One could equally say your 10 year old mistakenly believes she can identify whether someone is a man or a woman based on first appearances because of the influence of her father.

I've encountered people that I do not know are male or female in my daily life and these people were not trans or non binary. Some cis women can be extremely stereotypically masculine and same for cis men and stereotypical feminine attributes.

Frankly your daughters mistaken beliefs mean nothing.

Any 10 yo or younger can identify a man and a woman based on the countless biological differences between them. Parents don't need to teach them, reality will

Mic 1972

LLMMLL wrote: »

She insists her pupils call her "miss" while also claiming to not care about pronouns.

She uses female toilets and changing facilities while insisting that this right is not extended to other trans people.

None of those claims contradicts the fact she is aware of being a man

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

She insists her pupils call her "miss" while also claiming to not care about pronouns.

She uses female toilets and changing facilities while insisting that this right is not extended to other trans people.

I don't think she is consistent and I don't think she agrees with you at all.

And I've never made any proclamation as to her sex or gender so not sure what you're on about with that.

You can throw as much linguistic mud as you wish.

The fundamental reality is that there are many transwomen out there who consider themselves men.

Blair White, Rose of Dawn, and Debbie Hayton are just three prominent examples because they are somewhat known to social media. But, there are no doubt many more out there.

We must recognize and accept their understanding of what it means to be a transwoman, rather than trying to personally attack them as "anti-trans".

Gentlemanne

volchitsa wrote: »

How often do you think someone will know a trans woman in any way well and not know they are trans? IME it's blatantly obvious. Less so for a trans man perhaps, and a beard is definitely a great way of "passing", but for a trans woman there's no equivalent.

So I don't think it's too likely that you'd need to tell anyone. They would already know.

All toupées look fake; I've never seen one that I couldn't tell was fake

LLMMLL

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Any 10 yo or younger can identify a man and a woman based on the countless biological differences between them. Parents don't need to teach them, reality will

But they are mistaken if they identify a trans woman as a man or a trans man as a woman.

And if they do identify a trans woman as a woman does that mean you agree that the trans woman is a woman as a 10 year old can't be mistaken apparently.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

But they are mistaken if they identify a trans woman as a man or a trans man as a woman.

And if they do identify a trans woman as a woman does that mean you agree that the trans woman is a woman as a 10 year old can't be mistaken apparently.

Only if the transwoman happens to look very much like a stereotypical biological woman.

But that wouldn't validate the claim that the transwoman is a biological woman.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

No it's because she has absorbed her father's prejudices and beliefs.

You obviously have strongly held conservative views that will rub off on a pre teen.

Now once she is a bit older and can challenge these views you might be a little less quick to champion her opinions as evidence of reality. Time will tell.

It's conservative to believe that men and women are biologically different?

I've heard some mad **** in my time but that's up there with one of the most bizarre definitions.

Funny how you can define certain things and not others.

Biology is now a conservative view.

Brilliant.

I welcome the day when she challenges my views and questions her own.

That's healthy.

Gentlemanne

Deleted User wrote: »

No offense taken. And generally, you wouldn't have to tell me. It's usually very obvious.

Due to covid, I haven't seen them very often over the past year, perhaps once every four to five months.

Before that it was once every three or four weeks.

Why do you ask?

Because if I knew you spent a not insignificant amount of time on the internet arguing against my rights, misgendering me and espousing the same views as activists who wish I would not exist at all .. I would probably not be comfortable with you beyond a very surface level of necessary interaction.

LLMMLL wrote: »

She has been completely disowned by the anti trans community since texts of hers came out where she was laughing at you guys and ridiculing your opinions.

I would love to see this, I was wondering why I haven't heard the gender critical hero Graham Linehan use this woman as his "one of the good ones" token minority in a while.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Only if the transwoman happens to look very much like a stereotypical biological woman.

But that wouldn't validate the claim that the transwoman is a biological woman.

But sure how could she look like a stereotypical woman when women can mean man?

Lunacy

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You can throw as much linguistic mud as you wish.

The fundamental reality is that there are many transwomen out there who consider themselves men.

Blair White, Rose of Dawn, and Debbie Hayton are just three prominent examples because they are somewhat known to social media. But, there are no doubt many more out there.

We must recognize and accept their understanding of what it means to be a transwoman, rather than trying to personally attack them as "anti-trans".

We don't have to accept their opinions on trans women. We should accept their opinions about themselves.

If Debbie Hayton Identifies as a man then I'm perfectly happy to agree with her on that.

But I no more have to accept her opinions on trans women in general than I have to accept that gay marriage is wrong because there were a few anti-gay marriage gay men.

I've assessed her opinions and found them wildly inconsistent.

She gets to use women's spaces. Other trans women don't.

She doesn't care about pronouns (but in practice has made people use terms associated with women to address her).

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Only if the transwoman happens to look very much like a stereotypical biological woman.

But that wouldn't validate the claim that the transwoman is a biological woman.

If that doesn't validate it then what does it matter what a 10 year old says.

We are being told that the differences between men and women are obvious and that 10 year olds can tell the difference.

We are now being told that well actually there are going to be cases where 10 year olds can't tell the difference.

Maybe not so obvious then?

Mic 1972

LLMMLL wrote: »

But they are mistaken if they identify a trans woman as a man or a trans man as a woman.

And if they do identify a trans woman as a woman does that mean you agree that the trans woman is a woman as a 10 year old can't be mistaken apparently.

If a man is dressed up as a woman, yes, a child might be mistaken. That's when you explain to your child what a man in a dress is.


Whatever a person identifies themselves with they are either a man or a woman and that's defined by biology only

Gentlemanne

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Because if I knew you spent a not insignificant amount of time on the internet arguing against my rights, misgendering me and espousing the same views as activists who wish I would not exist at all .. I would probably not be comfortable with you beyond a very surface level of necessary interaction.
.

That's grand.

If you weren't comfortable around me, I wouldn't want you in my company.

If my accurate take on biology offended you, I would hold you in high enough regard that I wouldn't lie to your face.

I say nothing on here that I wouldn't say to somebody in person.

Thankfully the trans people in my life are accepting that we don't agree.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

It's conservative to believe that men and women are biologically different?

I've heard some mad **** in my time but that's up there with one of the most bizarre definitions.

Yes - it seems that feminists of the 1970s were actually conservatives at the time, but they clearly didn't know it.

It's nuts.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's conservative to believe that men and women are biologically different?

I've heard some mad **** in my time but that's up there with one of the most bizarre definitions.

Funny how you can define certain things and not others.

Biology is now a conservative view.

Brilliant.

I welcome the day when she challenges my views and questions her own.

That's healthy.

I never said biology was a conservative view. I said your views are conservative.

Your views are not biology.

Biology is a body of knowledge along with a set of experimental procedures. Not a view.

I also welcome the day when she challenges your views.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

If that doesn't validate it then what does it matter what a 10 year old says.

We are being told that the differences between men and women are obvious and that 10 year olds can tell the difference.

We are now being told that well actually there are going to be cases where 10 year olds can't tell the difference.

Maybe not so obvious then?

I like how you keep bringing up my daughter as some sort of gotcha.

It's been explained countless times. Children can tell the difference between a man and a woman. If a man dressed like a woman it may cause confusion. It will in the VAST majority of cases still be very clear what the biology of the person is.

You are a liar or deluded to think otherwise

Gentlemanne

My friend calls Debbie Hayton and Blaire White "Auntie Blaires", the transgender version of an Uncle Tom. They sure are good at sucking up to people who hate them.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

I never said biology was a conservative view. I said your views are conservative.

Your views are not biology.

Biology is a body of knowledge along with a set of experimental procedures. Not a view.

I also welcome the day when she challenges your views.

That's your interpretation of biology.

And don't assume my daughters pronouns

(Wow, this is easy when you use your logic)

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I like how you keep bringing up my daughter as some sort of gotcha.

It's been explained countless times. Children can tell the difference between a man and a woman. If a man dressed like a woman it may cause confusion. It will in the VAST majority of cases still be very clear what the biology of the person is.

You are a liar or deluded to think otherwise

How can it be both clear and the child makes a mistake.

Either the child's view is evidence of it being clear in which case saying it is clear but the child is mistaken is a massive contradiction.

Or the child's view is not evidence of it being clear and what you mean is that you believe sex is clear no matter what a child woukd think. In which case why bring up a child's view at all?

I think you'll find it was you who brought up your daughter as a gotcha argument not me.