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Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

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    #632
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Or.... Preempting a problem which may exist.

    No fully functioning male has ever assaulted young girls while a Brown Oel in the Brownies - no reason to prevent this if they identify as female.

    Do we shouldn’t try to prevent it as it’s not happened yet ???

    Or should we plan for every possibility and find ways to prevent them ?


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    #633
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Gatling wrote: »
    No it's not a red herring .

    There is absolutely nothing any where in the legislation that says no you cannot - this is true .

    Gender is now turning into a consumer product or
    Choice ,and the legislation posted only applies to gender identity cert ,
    So if you don't seek a government approved gender recognition cert none of the legislation applies ,you can be Paul on Monday ,mary on Wednesday ,Mick on Saturday And Patricia on Sunday ,

    The declaration says that you would intend to live in the preferred gender for the rest of your life. Please find me a Minister and some Peace Commissioners, Notary Public, Commissioner for Oaths and Solicitors that will agree to sign these documents regularly for 1 person.

    Otherwise your point is frankly an absurd irrelevant nonsense red herring

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #634
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Since the law on self declaration? Refused on what grounds?

    Given they allowed a dangerous sex offender with a hatred of, and desire to hurt women to transition - I’d be very interested to learn what the refusal entailed.

    I’m certain Joey has the details if he posted there had been one.


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    #635
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    The declaration says that you would intend to live in the preferred gender for the rest of your life. Please find me a Minister and some Peace Commissioners, Notary Public, Commissioner for Oaths and Solicitors that will agree to sign these documents regularly for 1 person.

    Otherwise your point is frankly an absurd irrelevant nonsense red herring

    Details please of the refusal for a certificate you quoted ?


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    #636
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Gatling wrote: »

    Application for yes ,

    Now show us where exactly it says that you apply for one ,

    So if someone self identifies they don't have to nor can they forced to .

    This is correct yes

    Anyone at all serious about going through a transition will be required to follow state guidelines.

    I am not going down any hypothetical tangents here either btw, I would appreciate it if you stuck to known knowns at least.

    If you are raising the issue of there being no procedures and that it is a chaotic free for all I will simply be losing respect for your input into the discussion.

    The leg is there, look it up.


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    #637
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    The declaration says that you would intend to live in the preferred gender for the rest of your life[./quote]

    Which does not apply to those who self identify or those who see their gender as fluid ,
    Not everyone who claims to be transgender with physically change through surgery or will ask for a gender recognition.
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    #638
    Cilldara_2000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Cilldara_2000


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    Details please of the refusal for a certificate you quoted ?

    .
    Cilldara_2000 wrote: »
    Here's the 2018 report: https://assets.gov.ie/70336/d7b77746a61f48af83c8aa0004224ac9.pdf

    Per page 4, one application was refused in 2017. I don't recall a twitter storm or resignations. Do you?


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    #639
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    Details please of the refusal for a certificate you quoted ?

    Section 14 of the act, it is printed a few pages back.


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    #640
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Since the law on self declaration? Refused on what grounds?

    In 2017 a person applied for a gender recognition cert. The Minister refused the application.

    No reason has been published or reported why The Minister refused the application.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #641
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    Details please of the refusal for a certificate you quoted ?

    There is none in any of the documents posted it dates a single case in '17 there is no further details or explanation why or what was refused and if that person appealed and if they succeeded or not .
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #642
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Gatling wrote: »

    Which does not apply to those who self identify or those who see their gender as fluid ,
    Not everyone who claims to be transgender with physically change through surgery or will ask for a gender recognition.

    Anyone legally claiming to be trans will need their certificate though?


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    #643
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    Details please of the refusal for a certificate you quoted ?


    There are no details published or reported. The only known fact is an application was refused. Its in the 2017 annual report.


    https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/ea16c-gender-recognition-annual-reports/

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #644
    Cilldara_2000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Cilldara_2000


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    Anyone legally claiming to be trans will need their certificate though?

    That's not the issue with the prisoner case though which is a legitimate concern about the self ID provisions of the Gender Recognition Act: https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/


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    #645
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Gatling wrote: »
    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    The declaration says that you would intend to live in the preferred gender for the rest of your life

    Which does not apply to those who self identify or those who see their gender as fluid ,
    Not everyone who claims to be transgender with physically change through surgery or will ask for a gender recognition.

    We were talking about legal gender recocgnition in the state. Gender fluid is not a legally recognised gender in the state so the point you are trying to make doesnt exist.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #646
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    Anyone legally claiming to be trans will need their certificate though?

    No .
    Again there is no law or legislation that says they have to none they can't be forced to have a certificate and they don't actually apply for one .

    It's only if you actually choose to do so .

    For instance if you or I came out tomorrow and said we were now trans ,can you or I be legally forced to apply for a certificate
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #647
    kildare lad
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭kildare lad


    After reading through this thread, I feel as confused as the people with " gender fluidity"


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    #648
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Gatling wrote: »
    No .
    Again there is no law or legislation that says they have to none they can't be forced to have a certificate and they don't actually apply for one .

    It's only if you actually choose to do so .

    For instance if you or I came out tomorrow and said we were now trans ,can you or I be legally forced to apply for a certificate

    You cant be forced to apply for a certificate no but you wont get legally recognised in your preferred gender. All your official documentation; pps no, psc card, passport, drivers license, birth cert remain in your gender assigned at birth.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #649
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Cilldara_2000 wrote: »
    That's not the issue with the prisoner case though which is a legitimate concern about the self ID provisions of the Gender Recognition Act: https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

    It is an entirely unique scenario which is being handled by the state as well as possible.

    There may need to be amendments made concerning this as a result, but I don't see its' relevance in this discussion.

    Eitherway the prisoner in question is being held in solitary confinement and as far as I am aware has no access to other prisoners, male or female. By all accounts this prisoner is extremely dangerous and requires unique care.


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    #650
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    your gender assigned at birth.

    “Assigned at birth”

    Or just, ya know, what you are.


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    #651
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    You cant be forced to apply for a certificate no but you wont get legally recognised in your preferred gender. All your official documentation; pps no, psc card, passport, drivers license, birth cert remain in your gender assigned at birth.

    Assigned at birth??? Ffs.

    Viewed at scan or birth you’ll find.


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    #652
    Cilldara_2000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Cilldara_2000


    Omackeral wrote: »
    “Assigned at birth”

    Or just, ya know, what you are.
    Gervais08 wrote: »
    Assigned at birth??? Ffs.

    Viewed at scan or birth you’ll find.

    You two are confusing sex with gender. Sex is almost always obvious (there are cases of biological sex being unclear and the doctors/family getting it wrong), gender mostly so. But if it was entirely clear cut and obvious like you imply here, there would be no need for this thread.


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    #653
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    Cilldara_2000 wrote: »
    You two are confusing sex with gender. Sex is almost always obvious (there are cases of biological sex being unclear and the doctors/family getting it wrong), gender mostly so. But if it was entirely clear cut and obvious like you imply here, there would be no need for this thread.

    It is. “Gender” to the woke types these days means “outdated stereotypes”.


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    #654
    Cilldara_2000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Cilldara_2000


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    It is. “Gender” to the woke types these days means “outdated stereotypes”.

    To be clear, are you actually denying the existence of intersex people and/or transgender people? Is it all a hoax?


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    #655
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    Cilldara_2000 wrote: »
    To be clear, are you actually denying the existence of intersex people and/or transgender people? Is it all a hoax?

    Bad faith arguing there and putting words in my mouth - not good.

    No, intersex people are not germane to this issue and I’m really tired of them being used as a handy prop to argue with.

    They have a medical condition that is diagnosable and most live as the sex they most physically resemble and/or were born as.

    I’m talking about people feeling they are “the wrong gender” when they think being a woman is wearing make up and high heels and not playing sports or with Meccano as a kid.

    Why society is not pushing back with this fact is beyond me. There is no place for stereotypes any more if we are to get equality.


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    #656
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    We were talking about legal gender recocgnition in the state. Gender fluid is not a legally recognised gender in the state so the point you are trying to make doesnt exist.

    Is it a thing in your opinion?


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    #657
    Cilldara_2000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Cilldara_2000


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    Bad faith arguing there and putting words in my mouth - not good.

    No, intersex people are not germane to this issue and I’m really tired of them being used as a handy prop to argue with.

    They have a medical condition that is diagnosable and most live as the sex they most physically resemble and/or were born as.

    I’m talking about people feeling they are “the wrong gender” when they thing being a woman is wearing make up and high heels and not playing sports or with Meccano as a kid.

    Why society is not pushing back with this fact is beyond me. There is no place for stereotypes any more if we are to get equality.

    I reject the bad faith label here. It was a simple question. You allege in response to my previous post that gender is clear cut. That appears to me to suggest that transgender is something that doesn't exist. Asking for clarification on this POV is not bad faith arguing.

    Which you didn't answer btw.

    So let's try again, are you actually denying the existence of transgender people? Is it all a hoax?


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    #658
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users Posts: 4,731 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    Cilldara_2000 wrote: »
    To be clear, are you actually denying the existence of intersex people and/or transgender people? Is it all a hoax?

    Nobody denied anything. Nobody said anyone doesn't exist.

    If transgender people don't exist why are we having a conversation about them. This doesn't make any sense.


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    #659
    Palmach
    Registered Users Posts: 978 ✭✭✭Palmach


    Cilldara_2000 wrote: »
    To be clear, are you actually denying the existence of intersex people and/or transgender people? Is it all a hoax?


    Intersex is a scientific term. They exist. Those with a medical diagnosis as transgender exist. Those self identifying do not except in their own heads.


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    #660
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    jam_mac_jam wrote: »
    Nobody denied anything.
    Nobody said anyone doesn't exist.

    If transgender people don't exist why are we having a conversation about them. This doesn't make any sense.
    Palmach wrote: »
    Intersex is a scientific term. They exist. Those with a medical diagnosis as transgender exist. Those self identifying do not except in their own heads.

    :rolleyes:


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    #661
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Palmach wrote: »
    Intersex is a scientific term. They exist. Those with a medical diagnosis as transgender exist. Those self identifying do not except in their own heads.

    No

    A Self identifying trans people do legally exist so your assertion they dont exist is wrong
    B There isnt a medical diagnosis as transgender
    C People who have filled out the self declaration forms for a gender recognition cert often have got a medical diagnosis so your assumption that trans people are either medically diagnosed as transgender or self identified as transgender is wrong

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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