Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Gervais08

km991148 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

A perfectly valid point - no psych exam, no therapy, no counseling, no discussion and much more often than not no transformation other than an outdated version of “femininity” like lots of make up, lots and LOTS of pink, heels etc etc.

jam_mac_jam

km991148 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Oh we are just posting stupid faces now? Great standard of arguing.

Gatling

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

B There isnt a medical diagnosis as transgender
C People who have filled out the self declaration forms for a gender recognition cert often have got a medical diagnosis

If there is no medical diagnosis as transgender (gender dysmorphia) ?
What diagnosis would one need to get the GRC then ?

jam_mac_jam

Gatling wrote: »

If there is no medical diagnosis as transgender (gender dysmorphia) ?
What diagnosis would one need to get the GRC then ?

You don't need any diagnosis. You identify yourself.

Annasopra

Gervais08 wrote: »

A perfectly valid point - no psych exam, no therapy, no counseling, no discussion and much more often than not no transformation other than an outdated version of “femininity” like lots of make up, lots and LOTS of pink, heels etc etc.

Its not really. Its an assumption based on pretty much nothing that all trans people who have GRCs have had no psych exam, no therapy, no counseling and no discussion which isnt really the case at all. There are loads of these services in Ireland.

jam_mac_jam

On July 15, 2015, Ireland passed the Gender Recognition Act of 2015 that allows legal gender changes without the requirement of medical intervention or assessment by the state.[6] Such change is possible through self-determination for any person aged 18 or over ordinarily resident in Ireland and/or registered on Irish registers of birth or adoption. Persons aged 16 to 18 years must secure a court order to exempt them from the normal requirement to be at least 18.[7] Ireland is one of four legal jurisdictions in the world where people may legally change gender through self-determination.[8]

Wikipedia

Gervais08

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its not really. Its an assumption based on pretty much nothing that all trans people who have GRCs have had no psych exam, no therapy, no counseling and no discussion which isnt really the case at all. There are loads of these services in Ireland.

Either there’s no “medical diagnosis of transgender” as you confidently stated or they go through medical checks - which if it ?

Annasopra

Gatling wrote: »

If there is no medical diagnosis as transgender (gender dysmorphia) ?
What diagnosis would one need to get the GRC then ?

You dont need any diagnoses in Ireland for a GR Cert.

Gervais08

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

You dont need any diagnoses in Ireland for a GR Cert.

That’s not what I asked you - and you are going round in circles and not answering, just repeating the same things.

Gatling

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

You dont need any diagnoses in Ireland for a GR Cert.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No

A Self identifying trans people do legally exist so your assertion they dont exist is wrong
B There isnt a medical diagnosis as transgender
C People who have filled out the self declaration forms for a gender recognition cert often have got a medical diagnosis so your assumption that trans people are either medically diagnosed as transgender or self identified as transgender is wrong

which one is it

IAMAMORON

Gervais08 wrote: »

Either there’s no “medical diagnosis of transgender” as you confidently stated or they go through medical checks - which if it ?

It is the prerogative of the individual.

The act allows for citizens to legally change their gender based on the permission of the state which is offered via the minister. The onus of application lies with the citizen, there is no obligation to apply, however, if you do not apply you will not be offered the opportunity for the state to recognise your transition.

Annasopra

Gervais08 wrote: »

Either there’s no “medical diagnosis of transgender” as you confidently stated or they go through medical checks - which if it ?

You've lost me. The legal process of transition is filling out a form. There seems to be a strange assumption here that because the legal process of transition is merely filling out a form that nobody goes through any medical processes.

There is no medical diagnoses "as transgender" or "gender dysmorphia" - There is a medical diagnoses of gender dysphoria. In Ireland to legally change gender you do not require any medical diagnoses.

Smacruairi

So if its merely filling out a form, are they a man half way through their signature, and a woman once they dot the i and cross the t?

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

You cant be forced to apply for a certificate no but you wont get legally recognised in your preferred gender. All your official documentation; pps no, psc card, passport, drivers license, birth cert remain in your gender assigned at birth.

A central point of the GRA is to allow you change these documents to reflect your new gender.

While S15 of the act, provides for reversing the process, to original gender. Not quite the revolving doors of gender identity though.

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

There is no medical diagnoses "as transgender" or "gender dysmorphia" - There is a medical diagnoses of gender dysphoria. In Ireland to legally change gender you do not require any medical diagnoses.

I also don't need a medical diagnosis to consider myself an elephant.

It doesn't make me an elephant.

If for some reason a law allowed me to identify as an elephant, or compelled people to call me an elephant, it wouldn't make me any more of an elephant.

It's just simply not true.

km991148

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Oh we are just posting stupid faces now? Great standard of arguing.

What can I say? Two back to back contradictory posts..

Incidentally, I don't see any need for 'arguing'.. but maybe that's what some people want?

km991148

Gervais08 wrote: »

A perfectly valid point - no psych exam, no therapy, no counseling, no discussion and much more often than not no transformation other than an outdated version of “femininity” like lots of make up, lots and LOTS of pink, heels etc etc.

Sorry, you don't seem to understand (my point, fair enough I just left a smiley). On one post we are saying 'no one denies' then the next post absolutely denies out with their own definition..

Pretty much sums up the thread so far. If you don't agree with certain points then it's name calling etc ('woke types' or whatever) or accusations of all sorts.

And now we have the cheek to talk about the standard of posting.
There are valid points been raised on this thread, it's a shame there doesn't seem to be any real interest in discussing a lot of them or any potential solutions to them.

km991148

Smacruairi wrote: »

So if its merely filling out a form, are they a man half way through their signature, and a woman once they dot the i and cross the t?

Yes. That's exactly how it works. Only extra is If m-f and the surname contains a letter I then it's mandatory to dot the I with a little heart shape.

Smacruairi

km991148 wrote: »

Yes. That's exactly how it works. Only extra is If m-f and the surname contains a letter I then it's mandatory to dot the I with a little heart shape.

So it's all performative, not biological is what you're saying. Grand.

km991148

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I don't see any reason for arguing either.

I am not the one posting stupid faces in response to people's posts. And I am trying to a civil conversation like an adult might.

So why not pull up any of the many other sarcastic posts? I used a symbol, to highlight some irony in light hearted way. I have no idea why you felt the need to have a go at me specifically.

Just more noise really and goes against what people may deem a civil, adult conversation.

Gervais08

km991148 wrote: »

Yes. That's exactly how it works. Only extra is If m-f and the surname contains a letter I then it's mandatory to dot the I with a little heart shape.

You literally post bemoaning people allegedly not wanting to debate and then second later, this ?

jam_mac_jam

km991148 wrote: »

So why not pull up any of the many other sarcastic posts? I used a symbol, to highlight some irony in light hearted way. I have no idea why you felt the need to have a go at me specifically.

Just more noise really and goes against what people may deem a civil, adult conversation.

Obviously because you are the only person who made a sarcastic face at a point I made. Nobody else is doing that.

When someone else is sarcastic to me I will direct "noise" at them also. If by noise you mean reply.

km991148

Gervais08 wrote: »

You literally post bemoaning people allegedly not wanting to debate and then second later, this ?

Well I think it's pretty clear this thread is going no where.

So where's the harm? Or is sarcasm/humour etc only allowed if it's in one direction?

km991148

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Obviously because you are the only person who made a sarcastic face at a point I made. Nobody else is doing that.

When someone else is sarcastic to me I will direct "noise" at them also. If by noise you mean reply.

This is getting waaay off topic now, but I had no issue with your point. It's the post immediately after that I found amusing as it was a response to the same post and contradicted it right away..! No harm meant at all..!

Gervais08

One thing I don’t get is the power of the trans lobby - mainly online like but they’ve got people fired etc; yet transgender people comprise such a small fraction of a percentage of the population.

My workplace has a series of seminars with TENI (trans equality network) and I asked why not expand this to the other cultures in our workplace, or similar.

“Oh I never knew you had a problem with the trans community”.

I don’t. I merely asked why the concentration for a tiny number of people. I apparently need “more education”

I imagine a gulag on Spike Island is in my future if I say similar again!!!

MoonUnit75

Gervais08 wrote: »

One thing I don’t get is the power of the trans lobby - mainly online like but they’ve got people fired etc; yet transgender people comprise such a small fraction of a percentage of the population.

My workplace has a series of seminars with TENI (trans equality network) and I asked why not expand this to the other cultures in our workplace, or similar.

“Oh I never knew you had a problem with the trans community”.

I don’t. I merely asked why the concentration for a tiny number of people. I apparently need “more education”

I imagine a gulag on Spike Island is in my future if I say similar again!!!

It’s also only a proportion of the actual trans community who are engaged in militant activism. I think the trans movement is being cynically used as a human shield for a wider agenda that fits in the identity politics movement. The kind of ideology being taught at universities that gender is ‘a performance’ and biological sex is meaningless etc.

Trans rights activists are equally vulnerable and vocal enough to be exploited as a shield against criticism of intersectionality, relativism, postmodernism, Marxism etc. If you aren’t allowed to state that biological sex is real, or if you do that you are not allowed to ‘get away with it’ then these movements win by default. Reality is no longer an argument against absurdity, it’s a thought crime.

km991148

Gervais08 wrote: »

A perfectly valid point - no psych exam, no therapy, no counseling, no discussion and much more often than not no transformation other than an outdated version of “femininity” like lots of make up, lots and LOTS of pink, heels etc etc.

Also, just how many people do you think fill out the form out if the blue? Without speaking to specialist/therapist/GPs.

I obviously don't have numbers on this, but I'd be willing to bet that it's none.

Is it a potential (future?) problem with the system that it's not mandatory, I guess so?

IAMAMORON

Gervais08 wrote: »

My workplace has a series of seminars with TENI (trans equality network) and I asked why not expand this to the other cultures in our workplace, or similar.

What other cultures did you suggest?

Gervais08

km991148 wrote: »

Also, just how many people do you think fill out the form out if the blue? Without speaking to specialist/therapist/GPs.

I obviously don't have numbers on this, but I'd be willing to bet that it's none.

Is it a potential (future?) problem with the system that it's not mandatory, I guess so?

You don’t know how many so you can’t say that when I believe it’s the majority then I’m wrong.

Gervais08

IAMAMORON wrote: »

What other cultures did you suggest?

What ?? Why would I need to “suggest” any??

I’m talking about the fact we have a multicultural workforce (a dozen non-EU countries at last estimation) and yet these is no intercultural awareness training.